Reassigning & Reassessing where players play

LeafingTheWay

Registered User
May 31, 2014
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Offensive players will tend to struggle defensively, while defensive players will tend to struggle offensively. From my knowledge, it's up to the coaches to assess how players play and assign them to a position properly. Now with the Maple Leafs, we have a similar situation with Kessel as in Chicago. Looking at Chicago, Kane has very elite goals/60, assists/60 and points/60. However, when looking at his usage adjusted corsi for and against, they show him to be a third-line type of player. Why? Simply because he plays with less talent than him. However, the reasoning behind why his point totals are so high is because of the lack of quality competition.

Of course Chicago has Toews, and Toronto has Bozak; two totally different players. All statistics for Bozak are very poor, except for his assists/60 and faceoff percentage. On the other hand, we have a 1C and we're not even using him properly!

Kadri has 1st line materials for goals/60, assists/60, points/60, usage adjusted corsi for and against, and has been top 3 in drawing penalties (1st this year and in 2012). His possession statistics and his quality of competition all point towards him being a 1C. They all show him to be quite similar to Tavares, who we all know Kadri challenged years ago.

Let me make this clear; Tavares IS BETTER. However, not by a drastic amount. Tavares gets all the offesnive zone starts in the world, along with Okposko. Tavares does not have as elite statistics as a Crosby or Toews, but he is a VERY good hockey player. While playing junior, Kadri was the 1C but then moved to the wing to play with the acquired Tavares.

So, if Kadri is a 1C, why isn't there already? Simple. Kessel does not mesh well with Kadri, from the small sample size. Over a few games played together, media has portrayed that Bozak 'needs' to get back there to get the scoring back. The solution is simple. We move Kadri to the 1C position and REASSIGN, not demote, Kessel to the 2nd line. Thus, effectively giving both players their spots where they would excel.

Something on the lines of:

JVR - Kadri - ______
____ - Bozak - Kessel

From reports however, they are saying that Lupul, Bozak and Franson are actively being shopped. So if Bozak does get moved out, a responsible 2C is all that is needed. Thus, allowing Nylander the opportunity to slide in to 2nd line wing, 1st line wing or more likely, 3C.

Do you guys agree with the model of assigning Kadri bigger minutes, while assigning Kessel just as much, but on a sheltered line? (Kane & Toews model)
 
Last edited:

Kingstonian84*

Registered User
Sep 23, 2012
2,388
0
Did you really just compare Kadri to Tavares? LOL!

Tavares (who is the same age as Kadri) has put up a ppg pace over the past 3 years, whereas Kadri who has only ONCE put up 50 points in a full season... no Kadri is NOT even remotely in the same league as Tavares.

As for Kessel on the 2nd line? Who replaces hhim? Really pal yoiu need to use some logic here! If we can get a guy that can put up 75-85 points (Nylander maybe?) then yes Kessel slots down to the 2nd line but until then he stays on the top line.
 

LeafingTheWay

Registered User
May 31, 2014
6,726
1,855
Did you really just compare Kadri to Tavares? LOL!

Tavares (who is the same age as Kadri) has put up a ppg pace over the past 3 years, whereas Kadri who has only ONCE put up 50 points in a full season... no Kadri is NOT even remotely in the same league as Tavares.

As for Kessel on the 2nd line? Who replaces hhim? Really pal yoiu need to use some logic here! If we can get a guy that can put up 75-85 points (Nylander maybe?) then yes Kessel slots down to the 2nd line but until then he stays on the top line.

Take a minute to find out the reason why Tavares is better than Kadri and you'll find the problem.

Does Chicago's wingers have 70+ pts? Only Sharp has done that, and he's not on pace for that this year.
 

Faltorvo

Registered User
Feb 18, 2008
21,067
1,941
Take a minute to find out the reason why Tavares is better than Kadri and you'll find the problem.

Does Chicago's wingers have 70+ pts? Only Sharp has done that, and he's not on pace for that this year.

because the gm s of the gold medal team pegged one player as a automatic "make it" player and the other never even got a consideration?

nothing against kadri but he is not even close to being in JTs league of player.

JT has elevated himself into the "elite" category
 

LeafingTheWay

Registered User
May 31, 2014
6,726
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because the gm s of the gold medal team pegged one player as a automatic "make it" player and the other never even got a consideration?

nothing against kadri but he is not even close to being in JTs league of player.

JT has elevated himself into the "elite" category

I agree with you totally, but saying Kadri isn't even close is silly. When I first heard one of the guys say that Kadri is the 1C in Toronto and that while Tavares is an elite franchise player, the statistics for Kadri show that they are similar. Look at where and how they started. One was pegged for the 1C right away. The other was told to earn it while playing beside subpar players? Today, they both have identical everything statitstics including goals/60, assists/60 and points/60. Looking at just the point totals are not accurate. Why? They don't indicate if a player is ready to make the leap or if he's not. Kadri has done EVERYTHING asked of him as the 2C, and in this slump, everyone keeps saying that they need to have Bozak on the the first line to get scoring up. Has it? Nope.

Get into some analytics and see for yourself. I don't know if you can post a link on here or not but here: http://ownthepuck.blogspot.ca/
Compare any players you want and see how they're doing.
 

LeafingTheWay

Registered User
May 31, 2014
6,726
1,855
The point of this thread is not to compare Tavares and Kadri, but to show that Kadri is ready for the 1C position (19-21 mins a night) and to maximize Kessel's production.
 

KPower

Registered User
Jan 17, 2012
9,346
4,340
"Tavares is better than Kadri but not by much"

Gold jerry gold.
 

Vexed

Magic Marner
Feb 4, 2011
5,648
85
Barrie
This is a good example of how viewing stats in isolation is a useless way to evaluate athletes. What I mean by that is I believe you are taking some very serious leaps to connect your logic to your statistics.
 

LeafingTheWay

Registered User
May 31, 2014
6,726
1,855
"Tavares is better than Kadri but not by much"

Gold jerry gold.

It's not a drastic difference. Have you watched Tavares night in, night out?

I have. Tavares is a full elite level ahead of Kadri, but the statistics and play show that Kadri is ready to make the leap to where Tavares is on the 1C position.
 

LeafingTheWay

Registered User
May 31, 2014
6,726
1,855
This is a good example of how viewing stats in isolation is a useless way to evaluate athletes. What I mean by that is I believe you are taking some very serious leaps to connect your logic to your statistics.

Cody Franson. Last year when he was looking like the an AHL slow defenseman, did everyone not say he was a useless player?

If we looked at prospects in a different way from what we just see today, we would better be able to pick out better prospects.

Detriot is a prime example of this. Despite everyone saying their out of their mind picking a random player, they know and understand the steps a player goes through to become a better player. I'm not saying Kadri is a Tavares. I'm saying that he is ready to take his next step to being elite.
 

buttman*

Guest
Offensive players will tend to struggle defensively, while defensive players will tend to struggle offensively. From my knowledge, it's up to the coaches to assess how players play and assign them to a position properly. Now with the Maple Leafs, we have a similar situation with Kessel as in Chicago. Looking at Chicago, Kane has very elite goals/60, assists/60 and points/60. However, when looking at his usage adjusted corsi for and against, they show him to be a third-line type of player. Why? Simply because he plays with less talent than him. However, the reasoning behind why his point totals are so high is because of the lack of quality competition.

Of course Chicago has Toews, and Toronto has Bozak; two totally different players. All statistics for Bozak are very poor, except for his assists/60 and faceoff percentage. On the other hand, we have a 1C and we're not even using him properly!

Kadri has 1st line materials for goals/60, assists/60, points/60, usage adjusted corsi for and against, and has been top 3 in drawing penalties (1st this year and in 2012). His possession statistics and his quality of competition all point towards him being a 1C. They all show him to be quite similar to Tavares, who we all know Kadri challenged years ago.

Let me make this clear; Tavares IS BETTER. However, not by a drastic amount. Tavares gets all the offesnive zone starts in the world, along with Okposko. Tavares does not have as elite statistics as a Crosby or Toews, but he is a VERY good hockey player. While playing junior, Kadri was the 1C but then moved to the wing to play with the acquired Tavares.

So, if Kadri is a 1C, why isn't there already? Simple. Kessel does not mesh well with Kadri, from the small sample size. Over a few games played together, media has portrayed that Bozak 'needs' to get back there to get the scoring back. The solution is simple. We move Kadri to the 1C position and REASSIGN, not demote, Kessel to the 2nd line. Thus, effectively giving both players their spots where they would excel.

Something on the lines of:

JVR - Kadri - ______
____ - Bozak - Kessel

From reports however, they are saying that Lupul, Bozak and Franson are actively being shopped. So if Bozak does get moved out, a responsible 2C is all that is needed. Thus, allowing Nylander the opportunity to slide in to 2nd line wing, 1st line wing or more likely, 3C.

Do you guys agree with the model of assigning Kadri bigger minutes, while assigning Kessel just as much, but on a sheltered line? (Kane & Toews model)

I agree with trading Bozak, Franson, Lupus (if you can get something), Santa, Winnik, Robidas, and any other UFA or over 30 player.

Kadri is another issue. He is not a number 1 centre -- I don't care what cross says. He needs line mates to put up numbers and is a deficiency defensively. Can't win a draw and gets outmuscled down low. You want to be a number one centre you need those things as well.

I would trade 3 Kadri's for one Tavares.
 

Apotheosis

Registered User
Mar 27, 2014
11,606
5,142
Toronto, Ontario
You're way off here.

Kane plays on the second line for two reasons:

1. To create mismatches against opposing teams weaker lines (I.E. Putting Toews line against the opposing first line or second line and then putting Kane out later creating mismatches)

2. The Hawks have wing depth (Sharp, Hossa) and don't need to put all of their best players on one line. Spacing out the line-up coincides with the first point I made.
 

MarMarSab3

formerly #13 & TML4EVR
Feb 27, 2002
4,641
2,163
Toronto
Gardiner to 2C is a move I would love to see experimented. His skating, creativity and passing ability along with the knowledge of the defensive side of the game would make him tremendous at that spot.
 

rdawg1234

Registered User
Jul 2, 2012
4,586
0
Reassessing where players on this team should play? They should play on a different team!

need to lose these crap core players, time to rebuild
 

-DeMo-

Registered User
Nov 12, 2006
5,455
354
Huntsville Ontario
Kadri's not a 1C and I have no idea how the stats show he's close to Tavares but if they actually do then there clearly flawed I mean Kadri is on pace to barely break 40 points this year, and if the play of the last 10 keeps up he wont even make 40. he's not in Tavares League and he's not a 1C.
 

TankNationTillDeath

Pylon4Sale
Jan 10, 2014
788
0
Toronto
The only reason Kadri was even a 7th overall pick and not a second rounder was because of his inflated stats on the knights, due to playing alongside johnny t.. brutallll comparison.
 

Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
41,190
32,847
St. Paul, MN
Most would agree that Tavares is clearly the better player - it's just that the gap isn't as large as many seem to think. Kadri is and should be identified as a top six centre to move forward with, trade Bozak for assets, or play him on a lower line.
 

Al14

Registered User
Jul 13, 2007
24,204
5,579
Reassessing where players on this team should play? They should play on a different team!

need to lose these crap core players, time to rebuild

Touché, well said! :yo:

:thumbu: :thumbu:

I approve of this post! :nod:
 

LeafingTheWay

Registered User
May 31, 2014
6,726
1,855
You're way off here.

Kane plays on the second line for two reasons:

1. To create mismatches against opposing teams weaker lines (I.E. Putting Toews line against the opposing first line or second line and then putting Kane out later creating mismatches)

2. The Hawks have wing depth (Sharp, Hossa) and don't need to put all of their best players on one line. Spacing out the line-up coincides with the first point I made.

It's because of these two reasons that Kane is excelling. Check out his quality of competition and offensive zone starts. He's got the most offensive zone starts on the team. Kane's nothing exceptional defensively and would be more of a liability getting defensive zone starts.

You're right though. This model wouldn't work in Toronto, but it is what is in Toronto. Everyone agrees that Kadri is the best centre Toronto has, and that he's simply on the 2nd line because of 1) doesn't mesh with Kessel 2) Bozak's not good on his own, and Kadri provides 2 good lines of offense.
 

LeafingTheWay

Registered User
May 31, 2014
6,726
1,855
Most would agree that Tavares is clearly the better player - it's just that the gap isn't as large as many seem to think. Kadri is and should be identified as a top six centre to move forward with, trade Bozak for assets, or play him on a lower line.

ALL would agree that Tavares is better aha, but yeah what you said is true. Kadri should be played as a very good 2C, but I made this thread for their current situation with Bozak on the team. You can't have a 1st line that's a liability and expect the 2nd line to carry the whole way.
 

LeafingTheWay

Registered User
May 31, 2014
6,726
1,855
Kadri's not a 1C and I have no idea how the stats show he's close to Tavares but if they actually do then there clearly flawed I mean Kadri is on pace to barely break 40 points this year, and if the play of the last 10 keeps up he wont even make 40. he's not in Tavares League and he's not a 1C.

Okay let's break this down for you.

Through this, I want you to keep in mind that Tavares IS better and to keep in mind that Kadri is GETTING to the point where people should be wondering why he's not putting up significant point totals.

Kadri plays significantly less time than Tavares. Thus, the opportunities to score decreases significantly.

Kadri gets A LOT less offensive zone starts, A LOT LOT less PP time and less time with star players.

Despite this, Kadri puts up points at a 1st line RATE/ 60 mins (meaning per 60 minutes that HE played, not the team). There's nothing flawed about it. Check the website I posted below by a statistic guy, who's followed by Mirtle, Hope_Smoke, Bob MacKenzie, etc. See for yourself if there is something flawed.

In the end, Kadri is an ELITE 2nd line centre. In Toronto's case, he should be without a doubt the 1C.

I've been a fan of the Wings team and management for my entire life as well as the Leafs. The one thing that is evident is that they don't sacrifice centres for wingers. Want to build down the middle strong? Then put your best centre as the 1C.

Toronto without a doubt needs a 1C (trade deadline or offseason) instead of Kadri, but how do you fix the current situation (current as in next game, not at trade deadline or offseason).
 

LeafingTheWay

Registered User
May 31, 2014
6,726
1,855
Same PP, and during the playoff run kadri was moved to JT's wing and they each got 21 points in 14 games

Kadri had 93 pts the following season in comparison to the year he 'played' with Tavares when he had 78.

Plus, Tavares was traded to the team halfway through the season at which point Kadri was already the team's 1C.
 

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