Realistic Trade Proposals

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

I love that Bill has a great write up on Morin today. A REALISTIC VIEW.

no kidding. this paragraph sums up this board perfectly from that article

Among a large segment of hockey fans, even diehards, there is a tendency to be exceptionally harsh in judging defensemen. One bad shift out of 20-plus or a turnover or two gets equated to having a bad game overall, as does a night where, heaven forbid, the defenseman finishes with a minus and/or the other team gets more even strength shot attempts whether or not it's directly because one particular player happened to be on ice.

 

[JVR21]

Is a straight Morin for Drouin trade realistic? They seem to have the same boom or bust potential at this point in time.

 

[FLYguy3911]

no kidding. this paragraph sums up this board perfectly from that article

Among a large segment of hockey fans, even diehards, there is a tendency to be exceptionally harsh in judging defensemen. One bad shift out of 20-plus or a turnover or two gets equated to having a bad game overall, as does a night where, heaven forbid, the defenseman finishes with a minus and/or the other team gets more even strength shot attempts whether or not it's directly because one particular player happened to be on ice.

Yup. And it gets magnified x100 on a big stage such as the WJC or Memorial Cup, because every fan that watches that game is focused solely on that one player. Every miscue gets noticed. Even the Doughty's make multiple mistakes a game. It's the nature of the position. If you focus on a single player throughout a game you are going to find flaws.

 

[Striiker]

Hextall won't do any of these dumbass trades. He's smart enough to realize that we need to keep the D prosepcts.

 

[Tripod]

Is a straight Morin for Drouin trade realistic? They seem to have the same boom or bust potential at this point in time.

To me, the only thing worst than Morin busting is watching him boom for another team.

I said this in the main board thread. Let's say Drouin becomes a 60-70 point winger. I think that is a fair value and certainly not undervaluing him. He could become Gagner. But anyways, let's say he becomes that 60-70 guy.

What is his value at that point? Well...look at every Eberle thread. They are contstantly told he is not worth a top pairing Dman, unless that guy is overpaid(Dion). He NEVER is valued at a #1 and rarely as a #2 Dman.

You see Preds fans all day say no to trading Jones, a current #3 with #1 upside.

Well, Morin still has that #1/2 upside. How about we hold onto the guy that has only gotten better each and every year and that has a positive attitude. After all, at age 25, he will be the best Dman in hockey...so he thinks.

At least he is willing to work towards it instead of feeling entitled to it.

 

[Appleyard]

Even if we were to consider trading a D prospect for a forward...

for me Jonathan Drouin would not be that forward.


Funny thing is, if people have watched him in the NHL, he is the kind of player that Flyers fans would almost certainly sour on very quickly. Plus on paper he is an awful fit for Giroux... and would not be able to play the minutes Couturier gets.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Of course you haven't.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Bill...cial-Month-WJC-Morin-Drouin-and-More/45/73707

Not really sure what this article was supposed to do, but it sounds exactly like what I said. Nothing special but nothing bad.

 

[Striiker]

the Flyers organization is very pleased with his rate of progress

In actuality, Morin is right on schedule. Over the course of his first pro season to date, Morin has shown all of the elements the Flyers want to see -- above-average straight ahead mobility for a man his size, a mean streak, puck-moving ability, bouncebacks after mistakes and even periodic hints of ability to make plays with the puck and chip in some offense when the opportunity presents itself (nine points in his last 15 games).

Morin is right about where the Flyers thought and hoped he would be near the midway point of his rookie pro season. As a matter of fact, if he continues progressing at the same rate over the rest of the season, it will have been a very strong start to his pro career from the perspective of his long-term upside.

Sam Morin in Jan. 2016 has improved significantly from the player we saw at the World Junior Championships last year and during training camp this September. At the same rate of progress between now and Jan. 2017, the Flyers would be thrilled with his development path.

... So yeah, I'd say he's having a good year.

 

[DaftCaptain]

What about going after Jonathan Drouin? He is a LW and could fit nice with G

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

... So yeah, I'd say he's having a good year.

A couple things...first of all, this article is from today. The season has been going on for months and no one on here and nowhere that I have read has been reporting on his progress other than random tidbits here and there, which lead me to my conclusion...nothing special, nothing bad. In addition this post of about five paragraphs relating to Morin does not say he is having anything other than a season that is to be expected. It doesn't seem to indicate anything special, or anything bad. It says he progressing the way they would like.

The article also says this...

Has Morin put it all together yet? No. Is he still a work in progress in refining some of his footwork and not getting caught on the wrong side of the puck? Yes. Does he still take a few too many bad penalties? Yes. Does he sometimes get away from "less is more" and try to do too much with and without the puck to his detriment? Yes.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

What about going after Jonathan Drouin? He is a LW and could fit nice with G

This guy is on to something!

 

[Striiker]

Him progressing the way they'd like isn't a very good thing? Of course it is. Him being on track is great news.

And yes, he's had struggles at times... like literally every other prospect that's ever existed. Shocking.

 

[Dumpster Flyers]

Complete nonsense. Sanheim was on the ice for one goal against all tournament, and every time he was given offensive opportunities he was the most dangerous of any of the Canadian defensemen. If Lowry had used him on the top PP unit all tournament long they would still be playing.

I don't think debating this would be very productive, since it's clear we saw wildly different things. I will say, that if a D deserve credit for only allowing one goal against on the third pairing through 5 games (hardly a major accomplishment), it's Dermott. He had the patience of a saint.

Even more garbage. We already examined the possession numbers of all 30 teams and showed there was no correlation between the number of RHD in the top 6 and CF%.

If you're going to scream "garbage," at least back yourself up with a link. To my knowledge, no legitimate analysis has been done on D handedness and possession. It would take a lot of work, since no database tracks both handedness and WOWY.

 

[DaftCaptain]

Is a straight Morin for Drouin trade realistic? They seem to have the same boom or bust potential at this point in time.

Oops Didn't see this

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Is a straight Morin for Drouin trade realistic? They seem to have the same boom or bust potential at this point in time.

Contrary to popular belief on here but GM's typically don't like doubling down on gambles that could hurt their franchise badly.

What we know about Drouin is that he's underwhelmed at the NHL level & has requested out of town. The sharks are circling in the water around Stevie Y right now.

 

[Larry44]

A couple things...first of all, this article is from today. The season has been going on for months and no one on here and nowhere that I have read has been reporting on his progress other than random tidbits here and there, which lead me to my conclusion...nothing special, nothing bad. In addition this post of about five paragraphs relating to Morin does not say he is having anything other than a season that is to be expected. It doesn't seem to indicate anything special, or anything bad. It says he progressing the way they would like.

All season, since camp to present, we have heard nothing but positive reports of Morin's development. The team's expectation, and most ours on here, is that he'll be a top pairing Dman capable of shutting down the other team while providing some offense to go with his size, speed and meanstreak. Nothing about those expectations have changed. People recognize that Dmen of his size take time to develop. He's developing nicely and showing continuous progress. He works, he learns, he's taking developmental leaps all the time. What's not to like?

On the other hand, Drouin played like crap in his WJC appearance, came to NHL camp feeling entitled to spot in the top 6 and has been in a sulk and/or injured ever since.

Frankly, demands aside, I don't think Yzerman is going to trade him, as the return will not justify giving up so soon on the pick. After all, he passed up the chance to have Hedman and Jones as his Twin Towers on D. He can't admit how badly he blew that one, yet.

 

[BernieParent]

IMO, the optimistic side of realistic progression for the existing defense prospects is as so:

2016-17

Del Zotto – Streit / Schultz
MacDonald – Gostisbehere
Provorov – Medvedev
Gudas

* One of Streit or Schultz will be dealt before the start of next season.

2017-18

Provorov – Medvedev
MacDonald – Gostisbehere
Morin – Gudas
XXXX

* Del Zotto and the remainder of Streit/Schultz will either be dealt or will leave through UFA

2018-19

Provorov – Gostisbehere
Morin – Sanheim
MacDonald – Gudas
XXXX

* Medvedev leaves via UFA


Now, I don't believe that the Big 4 will be the top 4 on the Flyers' blue line in 3 years; at least 1 will probably flame out or take longer to make the move to the NHL. But it's nice to project with players who have a legitimate shot at being top-level talents.

 

[Prongo]

Not really sure what this article was supposed to do, but it sounds exactly like what I said. Nothing special but nothing bad.

What players excite you then? Kid is adjusting to the pro game and in the last 15 games has put up 9 points. That's a significant amount for a defenseman, even better with the type of defender he is.

If he continues to go at this pace, he will have a very "special" season as a 1st year pro.

 

[Alex91]

^as for your last statement, I agree. But you also could see Hagg, Myers, Friedman, Marti or Alt make a jump and be a 4-7 dman. Hagg should be used as a injury replacement in 2016. I'm sticking to my guns that he will be a steady bottom pairing NHL d who plays better with a steady partner. I am not saying he will carry a pairing but he should be a nice complimentary piece to one of our many different style prospects. Myers - Morin screams shutdown pairing.

 

[Curufinwe]

http://highlandparkhockey.blogspot.com/2016/01/lehigh-valley-phantoms-december-grades.html

Sam Morin - Grade B
2015-16 Season Stats: 34GP, 2G-7A, -5, 53 PIM
December Stats: 13GP, 1G-6A, -6, 21 PIM

The points are coming for Morin now, but at the expense of getting caught up ice more than a few times and hurting his team defensively. At times it seems like he's trying to do too much. He's held down a regular spot on the 2nd unit for both special teams units most of the season and is getting ample ice time alongside a reliable, steady player in Mark Alt.

http://highlandparkhockey.blogspot.com/2015/12/lehigh-valley-phantoms-november-grades.html

Defenseman Sam Morin - Grade B
2015-16 Season Stats: 24GP, 1G-3A, +1, 36 PIM
November Stats: 14GP, 1G-2A, +1, 24 PIM

Morin had been working almost exclusively with the defensive side of the game, and while he's still a little hesitant with the puck at times moving it up ice and in the offensive zone he isn't doing anything but improving and gaining confidence with each passing game.

http://www.csnphilly.com/hockey-phi...port-philippe-myers-quietly-having-great-year

Sam Morin, D, Lehigh Valley Phantoms
You can tell Morin is starting to feel more confident in his offensive abilities at the AHL level. The big blueliner has recorded an assist in each of his last three games and is jumping up on the play more often now. He needs to be careful not to get caught because he doesn't have the best foot speed, but it's encouraging to see him provide more. Morin now has two goals and 11 points this season.

Also:

Philippe Myers, D, Rouyn-Noranda Huskies
With the plethora of defensive prospects in the Flyers' system, it's easy to forget about Myers. He's doing all he can to stand out, however. The 6-foot-5, 209-pounder appeared in four games for the Huskies last week, collecting a goal and three assists. Myers is currently riding an eight-game point streak in which he's totaled two markers and eight helpers. He's no slouch in his own end, either. GM Ron Hextall may have found a serious sleeper. Especially now that Myers has added an offensive element to his game. He has 10 goals and 19 assists in 37 games for Rouyn-Noranda this year. He had just two goals and six assists in 60 games last season. What a turnaround.

http://www.csnphilly.com/hockey-philadelphia-flyers/sam-morin-making-adjustments-first-year-phantoms

Phantoms coach Scott Gordon said Morin has been a “sponge” since training camp concluded and is pleased with the way his rookie defenseman has transformed since then. Gordon lauded Morin’s positioning and active stick with and without the puck.

It also helps that Morin has a partner with AHL experience to depend on. Mark Alt and Morin have gelled nicely over the past month or so and their confidence as a unit has grown significantly.

“They’ve been a great pair all year,” Gordon said. “They’ve been together from Day 1 and they share a lot of responsibility. They usually play against the other team’s top lines, penalty killing and Sam plays a little power play too. We’re happy with the progress both of the players are making.”

 

[FLYguy3911]

Odd the one guy mentions his footspeed. He's probably the fastest skater on that team if not the organization.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Him progressing the way they'd like isn't a very good thing? Of course it is. Him being on track is great news.

And yes, he's had struggles at times... like literally every other prospect that's ever existed. Shocking.

All season, since camp to present, we have heard nothing but positive reports of Morin's development. The team's expectation, and most ours on here, is that he'll be a top pairing Dman capable of shutting down the other team while providing some offense to go with his size, speed and meanstreak. Nothing about those expectations have changed. People recognize that Dmen of his size take time to develop. He's developing nicely and showing continuous progress. He works, he learns, he's taking developmental leaps all the time. What's not to like?

On the other hand, Drouin played like crap in his WJC appearance, came to NHL camp feeling entitled to spot in the top 6 and has been in a sulk and/or injured ever since.

Frankly, demands aside, I don't think Yzerman is going to trade him, as the return will not justify giving up so soon on the pick. After all, he passed up the chance to have Hedman and Jones as his Twin Towers on D. He can't admit how badly he blew that one, yet.

What players excite you then? Kid is adjusting to the pro game and in the last 15 games has put up 9 points. That's a significant amount for a defenseman, even better with the type of defender he is.

If he continues to go at this pace, he will have a very "special" season as a 1st year pro.

http://highlandparkhockey.blogspot.com/2016/01/lehigh-valley-phantoms-december-grades.html



http://highlandparkhockey.blogspot.com/2015/12/lehigh-valley-phantoms-november-grades.html



http://www.csnphilly.com/hockey-phi...port-philippe-myers-quietly-having-great-year





Also:



http://www.csnphilly.com/hockey-philadelphia-flyers/sam-morin-making-adjustments-first-year-phantoms

If you would all go back to the original post...not the quote of my post that leaves out a very important piece of information...you will see that all of these responses are telling me the same thing, which is exactly what I posted originally. He's not done anything special, or anything bad. Are we now at a point where a prospect that progresses as expected is somehow doing something "special?" These posts about how he isn't having a bad year or how he is improving are great. I'm not saying he isn't having a good year. The original post simply pointed out that this season, I haven't heard much about him, which leads me to believe that he is not doing anything special or anything bad. Are really going to argue about this and then have people complain that I argue too much because I am responding to people crying about a completely innocuous and true statement (unless of course, normal progression is special, in which case we have a lot of special prospects out there!).

 

[Curufinwe]

Odd the one guy mentions his footspeed. He's probably the fastest skater on that team if not the organization.

Not everyone will agree on every aspect of a player's game, but the impressions I've been reading about Morin's progress in his first pro season have been positive for months now.

 

[Striiker]

You contradict yourself.

You say you understand he's having a good year, but then you also ask when we should be worried about him and say it'd be fine to trade him. Those aren't things you say about someone having a good year.






I have nobody to blame but myself. Why am I even getting involved in this dumb ****.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

You contradict yourself.

You say you understand he's having a good year, but then you also ask when we should be worried about him and say it'd be fine to trade him. Those aren't things you say about someone having a good year.






I have nobody to blame but myself. Why am I even getting involved in this dumb ****.

Those are not contradictions. First off, the worrying comment was posed as a question about when/if we should worry about him, and is being discussed about his falling down the depth chart and being passed by other prospects. Are you really suggesting that Ghost, Provorov, and Sanheim haven't or are not in the process of passing him on the depth chart? If those prospects were chumps, that would certainly be a cause for concern. But given the quality of these players, that doesn't concern me in the sense that it means Morin isn't good, just in the sense that there is a logjam that is going to make it more difficult for him to make this team. That then leads into the other statement about being fine trading him. I'm not sure what that contradicts. I would trade pretty much any player for the right deal, and swapping out Morin for Drouin is a deal I'd probably make. That does not mean I think Morin sucks. That does not mean I am calling him a bust. It means that we have a surplus of good d-men, will likely have our pick of D-men in the upcoming draft, and have no high end wingers in the system to speak of outside of Konecny who may or may not ever get there.