Olympics: Rating Canadian D

[Siberian]

Lots of Canadians make statements here that Canadian D is the best bar none underrating everybody else's. I really would like to rate this D.

Clearly, Yzerman (and Babcock) made his (their) choice having these factors in mind:

1. NHL offensive stats
2. NHL plus minus rating
3. Playoff experience
4. International experience

Statistically they picked the best players outside of Mike Green.

Let's look at the numbers.

Points
Keith - 2nd in points
Boyle - 3rd
Doughty - 5th
Pronger - 7th
Weber - 12th
Niedermayer - 14th
Seabrook - 43rd
Clearly, offensively this should be a fantastic group

Now look at the plus minus stats
Seabrook - 3rd
Keith - 4th
Pronger - 6th
Doughty -12th
Boyle - 55th
Weber - 75th
Niedermayer - 269th

Another factor is the age, size and weight:
Niedermayer - 36, 6'1", 194 lb
Pronger - 35, 6'6", 214 lb
Boyle - 33, 5'11, 190 lb
Keith - 26, 6'1", 196 lb
Seabrook - 24, 6'3", 218 lb
Weber - 24, 6'4", 234 lb
Doughty - 20, 6'1", 211 lb


Looking at this group I would say that Yzerman probably couldn't pick a better team. The only thing that is questionable is bringing Boyle over Green because Green is better in every offensive category and their defensive game is suspect at the same level I would say. As a fan of Russia I am happy that Burns is not in form because he was the one I thought played the best for team Canada in the last 5 years. He terrorized Russia in the Quebec final.

Here are the holes that potentially can be exploited by other teams.
1. Experienced guys may be too old and slow. Both Pronger and Niedermayer may be just too slow.
2. Young guys have no experience in big games. Keith played for Canada in Quebec, was somewhat good. Seabrook played for Canada in juniors, but that is a different level. I believe both played in pretty big international game vs Zurich Lions and Chicago lost. Doughty played in Bern, was good at times but also when the game was on the line the coach only played him 5 minutes in the third versus Hamhius 8, there must be a reason for that. Weber is the only experienced out of these 4 youngsters.
3. Boyle - I believe that when the pace gets fast this guy fails. I know he has offensive skills, but his defense is not elite.

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[CloutierForVezina]

Looking at this group I would say that Yzerman probably couldn't pick a better team. The only thing that is questionable is bringing Boyle over Green because Green is better in every offensive category and their defensive game is suspect at the same level I would say.

Not even close to accurate, Boyle plays ~4 minutes per night on the PK, Green just sucks.

 

[wpgyotes]

Here are the holes that potentially can be exploited by other teams.
1. Experienced guys may be too old and slow. Both Pronger and Niedermayer may be just too slow.
2. Young guys have no experience in big games. Keith played for Canada in Quebec, was somewhat good. Seabrook played for Canada in juniors, but that is a different level. I believe both played in pretty big international game vs Zurich Lions and Chicago lost. Doughty played in Bern, was good at times but also when the game was on the line the coach only played him 5 minutes in the third versus Hamhius 8, there must be a reason for that. Weber is the only experienced out of these 4 youngsters.
3. Boyle - I believe that when the pace gets fast this guy fails. I know he has offensive skills, but his defense is not elite.

1. No one has ever accused Niedermayer of being slow. At his peak he was one of the fastest skaters in the NHL and is still well above average in that capacity. Pronger may look slow, but he controls the pace of the game with his methodical approach and his ridiculous reach makes up for any shortcomings in speed.
2. A big international game vs. Zurich Lions? You mean meaningless exhibition? All four are young but have playoff games and high-level international experience under their belts, albeit in small chunks. Fair enough.
3. Boyle is far superior to Green defensively, IMO, and that's the main reason Yzerman and Co. went with him. He's older and more experienced, plays with more of an edge/intensity than people give him credit for, and has a Stanley Cup ring.

 

[finchster]

Not even close to accurate, Boyle plays ~4 minutes per night on the PK, Green just sucks.

Green is fourth on his own team on the PK ice time behind Poti, Schultz and Jurcina. so I agree with your statement

 

[Masochist Caniac]

Boyle was the lone bright spot on a SJ team that struggled through the post season last year. He contributed at both ends and was the life of the team. The difference between Boyle's and and Green's defensive play is pretty significant compared to their difference in offense. Green may be a step above offensively, but Boyle is far from a defensive liability, even with the likes of OV, Kovy and Malkin baring down on him. Keith and Boyle can run our PP nearly as effectively as Green could.

Niedermayer slow? Where have you been the past 20 years? He's had his hiccups this year, but the pace of the game has certainly not been one of them. He's still one of the smoothest skating defenseman and he may not read and react at the same lightning pace he did 10 years ago, but he won't be a liability. Pronger will be fine on small ice. We need a guy like him to make the opponents big guns think twice before cutting to the middle.

By the looks of it your just nitpicking. The kids aren't experienced enough, the veterans are too experienced and the prime aged players just suck. Our core is not only solid, but the best defensive core any country can put together. Defense will not be the issue.

 

[finchster]

As far as I am concerned Keith and Green are awash offensively. Keith is only 2 points behind Mike Green, and Green gets a huge advantage on the caps power play. He is pretty much the only defensemen to play on the power play getting 5:04 minutes a night while other defensemen are getting around 1 minute. 24 of his 50 points are on the power play.

Keith on the other hand plays half the ice time on the power play that Green does, 2:32, and has 11 points on the power play. Keith produces more offense than Green at even strength.

As for Boyle he averages 4:26 minutes a night on the PP and has 22 points on the power play. Boyle on a per minute basis on the power play produces more than Mike Green. Put Boyle on the Caps and let him play 5 minutes a night on the power play with Ovechkin and he will have similar totals in my opinion. I am not worried about not having Mike Green.

 

[Siberian]

1. No one has ever accused Niedermayer of being slow. At his peak he was one of the fastest skaters in the NHL and is still well above average in that capacity. Pronger may look slow, but he controls the pace of the game with his methodical approach and his ridiculous reach makes up for any shortcomings in speed.
2. A big international game vs. Zurich Lions? You mean meaningless exhibition? All four are young but have playoff games and high-level international experience under their belts, albeit in small chunks. Fair enough.
3. Boyle is far superior to Green defensively, IMO, and that's the main reason Yzerman and Co. went with him. He's older and more experienced, plays with more of an edge/intensity than people give him credit for, and has a Stanley Cup ring.

1. At this point I think both guys MAY be slow. I haven't seen Niedernayer this year so can't really comment. I was just saying that potentially there may be a hole, but may be not.

2. It was a huge game. The players realized that, the fans who watched the game realized that too. I know the NHL didn't make a big deal out of it but when the winning team gets 1 million dollars this shouldn't be an exhibition game. If it was for them then these players shouldn't belong to team Canada.

3. Boyle is not a good defensive d-man, never was. He may look good at times against some slow offense but there is a reason he has a minus rating in his NHL career even though he played with some excellent players in his career.

 

[finchster]

3. Boyle is not a good defensive d-man, never was. He may look good at times against some slow offense but there is a reason he has a minus rating in his NHL career even though he played with some excellent players in his career.

Simply not true, the 07-08 Tampa bay was the worst team in the NHL where he received the worst +/- rating of his career. Other minus years with Tampa Bay his team just squeaked into the playoffs, and his -15 in 01-02 Tampa was 4th worst in the NHL.

Simply put, aside from the 03-04 team in Tampa Bay he hasn’t played on a good NHL team his whole career (until now). While I wouldn’t argue he is elite defensively, he is in my opinion, better than Mike Green. As I pointed out above their contributions on the power play are close enough (two less points overall on the power play and 39 seconds less a night) .

 

[End of Line]

Green is fourth on his own team on the PK ice time behind Poti, Schultz and Jurcina. so I agree with your statement

I believe he's with the CBJ now.

 

[Frank the Tank]

1. At this point I think both guys MAY be slow. I haven't seen Niedernayer this year so can't really comment. I was just saying that potentially there may be a hole, but may be not.

2. It was a huge game. The players realized that, the fans who watched the game realized that too. I know the NHL didn't make a big deal out of it but when the winning team gets 1 million dollars this shouldn't be an exhibition game. If it was for them then these players shouldn't belong to team Canada.

3. Boyle is not a good defensive d-man, never was. He may look good at times against some slow offense but there is a reason he has a minus rating in his NHL career even though he played with some excellent players in his career.

I imagine I am not the only one who is NOT worried that because Keith and Seabrook played below average in an exhibition game they somehow will not be mentally ready to handle the Olympics.

 

[ChiTownHawks]

I imagine I am not the only one who is NOT worried that because Keith and Seabrook played below average in an exhibition game they somehow will not be mentally ready to handle the Olympics.

You're not.

 

[polmaniac932]

3. Boyle - I believe that when the pace gets fast this guy fails. I know he has offensive skills, but his defense is not elite.

Simply not true. It actually might be the opposite. He's easily the smartest player on the Sharks, and can rarely be found making a bad mistake in his own end, and in the offensive zone. He's pretty much flawless carrying the puck up the ice. He honestly could end up being Canada's most valuable defenseman in that regard, it's certainly debatable. His defensive play is vastly underrated, and when there's overwhelming pressure in his own d-zone, he is very good at relieving it once the puck gets on his stick. Very underrated defensively.

 

[wej20]

As far as I am concerned Keith and Green are awash offensively. Keith is only 2 points behind Mike Green, and Green gets a huge advantage on the caps power play. He is pretty much the only defensemen to play on the power play getting 5:04 minutes a night while other defensemen are getting around 1 minute. 24 of his 50 points are on the power play.

Keith on the other hand plays half the ice time on the power play that Green does, 2:32, and has 11 points on the power play. Keith produces more offense than Green at even strength.

As for Boyle he averages 4:26 minutes a night on the PP and has 22 points on the power play. Boyle on a per minute basis on the power play produces more than Mike Green. Put Boyle on the Caps and let him play 5 minutes a night on the power play with Ovechkin and he will have similar totals in my opinion. I am not worried about not having Mike Green.

Green is superior to Keith Offensively, sure being on the Caps PP helps him but he's got a 30 goal season. Keith produces more than Green because he's superbly transitionally( not that Green is a slouch in that department). I agree there is no need to worry about not having Mike Green there is enough offense on the blueline.

 

[Siberian]

I imagine I am not the only one who is NOT worried that because Keith and Seabrook played below average in an exhibition game they somehow will not be mentally ready to handle the Olympics.

They didn't play below the average, they played up to their capabilities, they just run into a wall, well organized defense system. This is exactly the type of game I personally would be worried about going into the Olympics. Short format, basically one game sudden death. This type of game has more indication than long regular season games.

 

[Novak Djokovic]

They didn't play below the average, they played up to their capabilities, they just run into a wall, well organized defense system. This is exactly the type of game I personally would be worried about going into the Olympics. Short format, basically one game sudden death. This type of game has more indication than long regular season games.

Are you kidding me?

You keep on talking about that exhibition game. There's a difference in one's mentality about playing for Canada at Olympics, and playing in an exhibition game. You're just trying to find a way to degrade his abilities. Kieth playing in the NHL gives me (and I'm sure all of the nation) more of an indication that one exhibition game.

As for Boyle, he's much better defensively than Green.

I do agree with you on Burns. I haven't seen such a dominating performance from anyone (all tournament) since that tournament. He looked way better than Green, and he was so fun to watch.

 

[sensfan83*]

They didn't play below the average, they played up to their capabilities, they just run into a wall, well organized defense system. This is exactly the type of game I personally would be worried about going into the Olympics. Short format, basically one game sudden death. This type of game has more indication than long regular season games.

An NHL team with 3 Olympians playing against the Zurich Lions in an exhibition match is in no way comparable to two Olympic teams loaded with all-stars and future HHOFers playing each other in the Olympics. Sorry to burst your bubble.

 

[Siberian]

Are you guys kidding me? What exhibition game? What is not exhibition then? It was only the second game in the last two decades where an NHL club represented the NHL against a european club in an official event with the prize money of $1 mln. If you guys brash this off as just an exhibition game then you never learn anything, specially from previous losses. Chicago loss to Zurich was a clinic, in some similar ways that game had a taste of Canada losing to the Swiss in the last Olympics, even though Chicago didn't have quality chances.

You guys should seriously watch it, it is available on NHL.com http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/console?id=47488

 

[Novak Djokovic]

Are you guys kidding me? What exhibition game? What is not exhibition then? It was only the second game in the last two decades where an NHL club represented the NHL against a european club in an official event with the prize money of $1 mln. If you guys brash this off as just an exhibition game then you never learn anything, specially from previous losses. Chicago loss to Zurich was a clinic, in some similar ways that game had a taste of Canada losing to the Swiss in the last Olympics, even though Chicago didn't have quality chances.

...so that one game accounts for more than his spectacular play in 160+ games in the NHL?



Give it up already....

 

[Siberian]

...so that one game accounts for more than his spectacular play in 160+ games in the NHL?



Give it up already....

NHL regular season games versus Olympics?
I am not going to give up anything, you don't want to discuss these things you have an option to leave and talk about something else.

 

[sensfan83*]

Are you guys kidding me? What exhibition game? What is not exhibition then? It was only the second game in the last two decades where an NHL club represented the NHL against a european club in an official event with the prize money of $1 mln. If you guys brash this off as just an exhibition game then you never learn anything, specially from previous losses. Chicago loss to Zurich was a clinic, in some similar ways that game had a taste of Canada losing to the Swiss in the last Olympics, even though Chicago didn't have quality chances.

You guys should seriously watch it, it is available on NHL.com http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/console?id=47488

I'm not sure you get it: Chicago isn't team Canada.

Furthermore, yes this was an exhibition game. It was before the start of the regular season. You're kidding yourself if you think that Zurich could compete with Chicago in the NHL. People are brushing this game off because it was just a tune-up for the real meaningful hockey games played in the NHL.

Also, Kane is counted on more than Keith and Seabrook for offense. Does that mean team USA should be worried about this EXHIBITION game? Of course not.

And I'm not sure many of the NHL hockey players cared about the 40-50k they would have each earned for winning the game.

Btw, I watched the highlights from that game anyways and both Zurich goals were scored against the Campbell-Barker pairing (neither of them are on Team Canada btw).

 

[sensfan83*]

NHL regular season games versus Olympics?

An exhibition game against the Zurich Lions is not the Olympics.

I'm done with you... this argument is literally Pejorative Slured. Keep fighting the good fight!

 

[Novak Djokovic]

NHL regular season games versus Olympics?
I am not going to give up anything, you don't want to discuss these things you have an option to leave and talk about something else.

He hasn't played in them.

Are you suggesting that Zurich Lions are Olympic calibre?

Sorry, but you're not going to get any support on your side.

 

[Frank the Tank]

NHL regular season games versus Olympics?
I am not going to give up anything, you don't want to discuss these things you have an option to leave and talk about something else.

When did Keith play in the Olympics? and when did an exhibition game against a Swiss team become on par with the Olympics?

Keith & Seabrook excelled in the NHL playoffs last season; only the Olympics are a bigger stage.

 

[Siberian]

Point was NHL regular season accomplishment is not really an indication of anything related to the Olympics. To me, the so-called by you "exhibition game" against Zurich is more indicative of things to come in the Olympics than the grinding schedule of the NHL season.

When it comes to Olympics Keith is the most overrated player on these boards right now. If you think that offensive "juggernaut" Keith just din't show up for this exhibition game - think again. He played for Canada in 08 where he had the whole two assists in 9 games, where they played against "lowly" Slovenia, Latvia, Germany and Norway twice.

 

[Novak Djokovic]

Point was NHL regular season accomplishment is not really an indication of anything related to the Olympics. To me, the so-called by you "exhibition game" against Zurich is more indicative of things to come in the Olympics than the grinding schedule of the NHL season.

When it comes to Olympics Keith is the most overrated player on these boards right now. If you think that offensive "juggernaut" Keith just din't show up for this exhibition game - think again. He played for Canada in 08 where he had the whole two assists in 9 games, where they played against "lowly" Slovenia, Latvia, Germany and Norway twice.

2008-09 is the season Duncan Keith became a Norris trophy contender so '08 WC aren't really "indicative" of anything, and this season he's the favourite to win, IMO.

There is no way Zurich Lions are a better team than Chicago Blackhawks. NHL accomplishments are nothing....

While we're at it, let's also talk about Jonathan Toews struggling, Patrick Kane struggling.....Patrick Sharp.

I just find the bolded statement so funny, hilarious, ridiculous and astonishing at the same time.