Rate the Coyotes Off-season - On Ice Only

[BUX7PHX]

Do you have a source that says it was Maloney who made Tippett play Chipchura in the top six? Otherwise this post is just baseless speculation.

I can provide actual quotes saying that Tippett approached DM about resigning Dave Moss after he went overseas. Are you suggesting that everyone lied at the time? Your post sounds like post hoc speculation.

Come on now, injuries forced that Chipchura in top 6 in some instances. And not trying to play devil's advocate here, but if we move someone up a line or two from where they should be and somehow there is some chemistry between the new player and the two linemates he is now with, should we completely remove him from the line altogether?

Bottom line is that no one is perfect in bringing in players, and you can only do what you can with what you have. I, for one, firmly believe that part of the issue was a reluctance on Maloney's part to invest some time and effort into some of the "bigger names".

As an example, McGinn fits the mold of a Maloney signing. But dealing for the rights to negotiate with Goligoski was not something that would be done by Maloney. I think that there were too many times when Maloney looked at the internal budget as a "my hands are tied" sort of thing and the only time that Arizona was able to get a big name free agent was when Ribeiro and his agent sought out Maloney, not the other way around. That's what brings about the interest in players like Moss - we miss out on most of the first days of FA and have to go bargain hunting with few bargains out there that will return the investment.

 

[cobra427]

I can provide actual quotes saying that Tippett approached DM about resigning Dave Moss after he went overseas. Are you suggesting that everyone lied at the time? Your post sounds like post hoc speculation.

Actual quotes? So what? The coach is going to tell the press he supports the GM's decisions. I am not saying anyone lied, but do you believe everything you read? Chip was in the top 6 because of injuries and no depth. Lines are determined based on combinations of players, not talent with a crappy roster.

Blaming Tip for past player signings is kind of lame now. DM was let go because he wasn't into group think decisions. Many on this board say that Tip won the power struggle. If that is the case, Tip must not have had much or any say so over past roster decisions. I would bet that Tip told Drummond that he didn't agree with DM's roster decisions at times and that DM didn't listen to his input.

If the Moss/Chip/Ribs/Downey signings were all because Tip wanted those guys and had influence over DM, then why was DM let go? DM would say, I signed the guys Tip wanted. I think it is the opposite, in that Tip didn't like some of the signings and DM would not listen to him.

Moving forward, Tip now gets part of the blame but also the credit for any good or bad roster decisions. The past is mostly if not all on DM.

 

[_Del_]

The stories all read that Tippett approached Don about Moss, not that Tippett "supported" the decision. You're saying they both lied. What motivation was there to lie about Moss? Your version of events is highly speculative.

Just so I understand the rules of your game:
1. I can't have an opinion without a source or we should dismiss it as speculation
2. If I have a source, it shouldn't be trusted

[mod]

 

[BUX7PHX]

The stories all read that Tippett approached Don about Moss, not that Tippett "supported" the decision. You're saying they both lied. What motivation was there to lie about Moss? Your version of events is highly speculative.

Just so I understand the rules of your game:
1. I can't have an opinion without a source or we should dismiss it as speculation
2. If I have a source, it shouldn't be trusted

[mod]

I think both parties are taking this a little further than what it needs to be. Here is the most likely scenario of what happened, IMO:

We are a budget team and therefore, not huge spenders at the beginning of free agency. After the first 3-4 days, there is little movement in terms of RWs available that fit into Maloney's price range. So, Tip looks at the roster and sees that our RW depth pretty much consists of Gagner, Boedker, Erat, and Crombeen. He says to Maloney - I have very little depth on the right side and have Vitale as my 4th line C. I would support the following players, as it gives me the flexibility to move someone to LW (Erat or Boedker), if need be. Maybe amongst those other players on the list were ones that showed no interest in Arizona, or that Maloney didn't feel comfortable going after, due to budget constraints. So, as the days of free agency continue on, Moss becomes the "default" best option to go with. Tippett supports it, even though Moss may have been the 5th player on a list that Tippett had for Maloney. Maloney supports it b/c it fits the internal budget that he is committed to.

Just b/c Tippett stated that he wanted Moss on the team doesn't mean he was the first choice, otherwise the first signing on July 1st would have been David Moss. It meant that after going through the days and realizing that it would be very tough to ice a team of under 6 foot players (Hanzal being the exception) with little additional depth that was ready for the NHL, Moss became the de facto best fit.

 

[TheLegend]

Hey gang.... how about we focus on the now rather than the who said what.

 

[cobra427]

The stories all read that Tippett approached Don about Moss, not that Tippett "supported" the decision. You're saying they both lied. What motivation was there to lie about Moss? Your version of events is highly speculative.

Just so I understand the rules of your game:
1. I can't have an opinion without a source or we should dismiss it as speculation
2. If I have a source, it shouldn't be trusted

[mod]

I am not saying anyone lied, and you are obviously entitled to your opinion, we all have one. What I am saying is that rather than look at a single quote in the press or a single player (Chip getting some top 6 minutes), stand back and look at the bigger picture. Part of the narrative on this board was that DM listened to Tip too much and many of the signings for washed up vets were because of him catering to Tip. It appears that Tip had little say in those decisions based on the fact that they shot DM, because he was not a group think guy, and promoted Tip who now has a big say in personnel decisions.

If DM was a yes man to Tip, why would IA promote Tip if he was in on and supported all the poor decisions? Maybe Tip wanted other players or other signings and DM over ruled him, even though some of those decisions would have worked out better in retrospect. IA would know it, if that were the case.

 

[ck26]

Yeah, I'm having trouble figuring out what a 1-year, $800k signing that happened two summers ago under the old GM has to do with this summer's performance rating.

 

[WrinkledPossum]

9, if we had got a RHD it would be 10. Made some good moves for Chychrun, Deangelo, Crouse. We didn't overpay for any FA. And the ones we did get should do well for us. I think Goligoski is gonna have a huge impact. McGinn is nice. And Vrbata is the perfect 1 or 2 year fill in before one of the young players is ready.

And I'd also add that I just really like the overall direction the team is going. I liked the draft strategy of taking guys who are more high risk high reward. I liked how FA was handled. Didn't make any regrettable deals, which would have been tempting with a new GM and supposed money to spend. I like the creative trades, and how Chayka said he's going to try and leverage the expansion draft in our favor.

 

[Jakey53]

Hey gang.... how about we focus on the now rather than the who said what.

Yeah, I'm having trouble figuring out what a 1-year, $800k signing that happened two summers ago under the old GM has to do with this summer's performance rating.

Yup, time to move on. I'm just glad we have a coach like DT.

 

[Jakey53]

9, if we had got a RHD it would be 10. Made some good moves for Chychrun, Deangelo, Crouse. We didn't overpay for any FA. And the ones we did get should do well for us. I think Goligoski is gonna have a huge impact. McGinn is nice. And Vrbata is the perfect 1 or 2 year fill in before one of the young players is ready.

And I'd also add that I just really like the overall direction the team is going. I liked the draft strategy of taking guys who are more high risk high reward. I liked how FA was handled. Didn't make any regrettable deals, which would have been tempting with a new GM and supposed money to spend. I like the creative trades, and how Chayka said he's going to try and leverage the expansion draft in our favor.

Like I mentioned earlier, if anyone suggested this would happen in the off season we would have rolled our eyes. I think we were all nervous when DM was fired, but I have been pleasantly surprised.

 

[bobbop]

Well, I'm clearly on the low end here. I don't think the Coyotes addressed their number one problem; inconsistent goaltending. Look, I know Mike, I think he's a terrific person but he is by any measure inconsistent. He's also getting older. Domingue outperformed his resume last year. Keep in mind there was a time not very long ago that the Coyotes didn't even think he was good enough to be a backup. History is littered with goaltenders who come in and have a good run and then tail off quickly. Worse yet, I don't see any internal soultions that are close to the NHL.

The one saving grace for the team is that if I am right, there will be good goaltenders available this year (Ben Bishop anyone?) because of expansion and the team has enough assets to go get a true number one.

I like the young assets a lot. The Crouse trade was smart business. Strome isn't a great skater but he has terrific hands. There's plenty of forward depth but again, help on the back end is not imminent.

I love the McGinn signing but am not nearly as high on Goligoski. Yes he was the best available defenseman but he is a career 4-5, not a top pair guy. His contract could become an albatross as he ages. He is a classic case of analytics and eyeballs telling a different story.

The team had a lot of energy last year and at least 1-2 of the young forwards should be in the top 9. That's a good start but there is still much work to be done.

 

[rt]

Goligoski has averaged more than 23mins TOI/G over the last half decade. Are there a lot of #5 D that get so many reps?

 

[airbus220]

I don't think the Coyotes addressed their number one problem; inconsistent goaltending. Look, I know Mike, I think he's a terrific person but he is by any measure inconsistent. He's also getting older. Domingue outperformed his resume last year. Keep in mind there was a time not very long ago that the Coyotes didn't even think he was good enough to be a backup. History is littered with goaltenders who come in and have a good run and then tail off quickly. Worse yet, I don't see any internal soultions that are close to the NHL.

I don't think there was a chance to get rid of Smith's contract, at the moment they are stucked with him for 3 years. But it doesn't look so bad. First, because of Domingue, you should be happy to have him. Second, because Smith was overused, how foolish was it to start the season with 2 b2b and 3 b2b in October. I can run down every goalie too if I wanted to. But Chayka said they want to use both as a tandem which should be good for both of them. To me goaltending isn't really a problem, only Smith has much salary, and I'm not interested in Bishop with another high salary. Need to find another Domingue because Domingue will get a raise in 2 years and it would be good if he could be replaced with a cheaper goalie. The goal should be to have 2 Domingue types on cheap contracts in the future. Need to develop Langhamer and Hill.

 

[RemoAZ]

Yeah the only way we get out from under Smith's contract is if he has a great year. But if he does have a great year, Tippett won't dump him so he's going nowhere. Just have to hope he can get it together or a young, cheap goalie plays well enough to stick him on the bench. I think we've all pretty much accepted that which is why no one is factoring it in to grading the off season.

 

[Decoyote]

Well, I'm clearly on the low end here. I don't think the Coyotes addressed their number one problem; inconsistent goaltending. Look, I know Mike, I think he's a terrific person but he is by any measure inconsistent. He's also getting older. Domingue outperformed his resume last year. Keep in mind there was a time not very long ago that the Coyotes didn't even think he was good enough to be a backup. History is littered with goaltenders who come in and have a good run and then tail off quickly. Worse yet, I don't see any internal soultions that are close to the NHL.

The one saving grace for the team is that if I am right, there will be good goaltenders available this year (Ben Bishop anyone?) because of expansion and the team has enough assets to go get a true number one.

That contact is unmoveable without valuable assets going the other way. It's not that bad anyway, especially if Domingue gets more starts than our backups typically do. He's just overpaid. Hopefully Tippet will stop putting out the same goalie in back to back games. The analytics must back that up, especially with a good #2 goalie.

Now if Smith is first half 14-15 season awful again and this is a bubble team next year then it should be a priority to replace him.

 

[SniperHF]

The analytics must back that up, especially with a good #2 goalie.

It's pretty hard to drill down data on this since the sort of variables that come into play on a back to back aren't all on the goalie. Everyone else is surely affected as well.

Even if you compared numbers between back to backs with the same goalie vs back to backs without the same goalie you still have those problems. Plus the additional wrinkle of the 2nd goalie, even if he's good is likely inferior.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1854723

http://www.broadstreethockey.com/20...a-flyers-goaltending-stats-back-to-back-games

https://www.nhl.com/news/super-16-analytics-say-rest-goalies-on-back-to-backs/c-734778

From everything I've seen, evidence does lean toward the obvious conclusion that yeah you should probably start the backup. But it's not a hard rule IMO.

I think the better case for not starting a goalie on a back to back beyond the numbers is concern not over that 2nd game, it's the 3 in 4/5 day situations.

Wait what's this thread about

 

[_Del_]

Yeah, I'm having trouble figuring out what a 1-year, $800k signing that happened two summers ago under the old GM has to do with this summer's performance rating.

I dont know. I said I was encouraged by the fact we didn't bring back driftwood and raised my grade because of it, and then the IA Defense League came out to counter-speculate my speculative speculations.


Goligoski was pretty widely regarded as the best dman becoming available in UFA. He's a top four dman, for sure. I'd agree he isn't a top pairing guy, but I don't know why you'd expect that from him. Dmen get insane contracts in free agency. It's what they do. Goligoski's isn't way out of line.

We're stuck with("married to") Smith. Win, lose, or draw he's our problem.

 

[cobra427]

Well, I'm clearly on the low end here. I don't think the Coyotes addressed their number one problem; inconsistent goaltending. Look, I know Mike, I think he's a terrific person but he is by any measure inconsistent. He's also getting older. Domingue outperformed his resume last year. Keep in mind there was a time not very long ago that the Coyotes didn't even think he was good enough to be a backup. History is littered with goaltenders who come in and have a good run and then tail off quickly. Worse yet, I don't see any internal soultions that are close to the NHL.

The one saving grace for the team is that if I am right, there will be good goaltenders available this year (Ben Bishop anyone?) because of expansion and the team has enough assets to go get a true number one.

I like the young assets a lot. The Crouse trade was smart business. Strome isn't a great skater but he has terrific hands. There's plenty of forward depth but again, help on the back end is not imminent.

I love the McGinn signing but am not nearly as high on Goligoski. Yes he was the best available defenseman but he is a career 4-5, not a top pair guy. His contract could become an albatross as he ages. He is a classic case of analytics and eyeballs telling a different story.

The team had a lot of energy last year and at least 1-2 of the young forwards should be in the top 9. That's a good start but there is still much work to be done.

Goal tending wasn't the biggest problem and I don't think it is a problem at all to be honest. Yes Smith is over paid but he and LD played well at different times last year. Our biggest problem was too many penalties, lead the NHL, and third worst PP percentage. Gogo is a top 4D for sure so should help the PK. Gogo should also help our possession numbers which should mean less penalties if we have the puck more instead of constantly chasing the other team.

 

[Jakey53]

Goal tending wasn't the biggest problem and I don't think it is a problem at all to be honest. Yes Smith is over paid but he and LD played well at different times last year. Our biggest problem was too many penalties, lead the NHL, and third worst PP percentage. Gogo is a top 4D for sure so should help the PK. Gogo should also help our possession numbers which should mean less penalties if we have the puck more instead of constantly chasing the other team.

Yup. You hit the nail on the head. While our goal tending was suspect at times, so is every other teams. We need puck possession.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Hey gang.... how about we focus on the now rather than the who said what.

Which is funny, because esp. based on that poll at the top of this thread, this is probably the happiest I've seen this forum since we beat Nashville in the playoffs 4 years ago.

It's almost a shame the season has to start to mess it all up.

 

[Grimes]

Remember when the media said we were going to do the rebuild the stupid way after Yotes let GMDM go?

What a relief, it was anything but that. 8/10 unless they do something dumb in the final hours.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

I thought about this for a while, and voted for a "10".

Like most, I saw the three major weakness of the team as penalty kill, power play and transition out of our own zone. I was otherwise satisfied with the state of our 5 on 5 play for our stage in the rebuild.

Off season acquisition #1, Gogo, should go a long way towards stabilizing our penalty kill and cutting down on the shorties. He will also go a long way towards helping clear the puck out of the D zone when OEL is not on the ice.

Off season acquisition #2, Vrbata, will go a long way towards stabilizing and improving our power play (as well as cutting down on all those shorties we gave up last year ((killers))).

That, and the acquisition #3 of Crouse, a true power forward, which we sorely needed, make me think that Chayka deserved a 10 for this off season.

 

[airbus220]

Off season acquisition #1, Gogo, should go a long way towards stabilizing our penalty kill and cutting down on the shorties. He will also go a long way towards helping clear the puck out of the D zone when OEL is not on the ice.

Off season acquisition #2, Vrbata, will go a long way towards stabilizing and improving our power play (as well as cutting down on all those shorties we gave up last year ((killers))).

That, and the acquisition #3 of Crouse, a true power forward, which we sorely needed, make me think that Chayka deserved a 10 for this off season.

Good points, let me add a #4
On ice change, both goalies will be used as a tandem, so the risk for getting injured should be much less when both are more rested and performance should be better too.

 

[_Del_]

Given Tippett's history of goalie usage, what would make you predict a timeshare or arrangement in which Domingue gets a good deal of starts? Did I miss something? Even when DD was clearly outplaying Smith, Smith started 61 games that season. Turco routinely hit 70+ games under Tippett. What changed?

 

[Palmer2Fitz]

I went seven. We made a lot of moves I don't particularly like, but that were definitely defensible. I didn't like the Goligoski trade, but we didn't give up much, and we convinced him to sign. Hate the Letunov trade. Wanted Logan Brown over Keller. Didn't like the Datsyuk move, but we did get a good prospect out of it. Not a fan or believer in DeAngelo and would not have picked him up, but the cost wasn't terrible. Not as high on Crouse as some, but that was a good move anyway you slice it unless Bolland decides he's healthy enough to play next year. Cutting Vermette still baffles me. For a team that says it wants to be a playoff team and said they were going to spend more money, I'm not overly impressed, but even the deals I don't like aren't clearly bad moves. So that's oddly comforting.

The good is that we added some good young guys who may pan out. We added Goligoski which was great. McGinn and Schenn add some weight. Vrbata is a plug, but we needed a rw. Feel better with him than without. Most importantly is what we didn't do. We didn't do anything stupid. We didn't strip the cupboards of youth to make a meaningless stab at the playoffs. Haven't brought back any of the Tippett crutches. That's positive enough to get a seven from me.

I couldn't disagree with you more. We gambled a 5th rounder to have a chance at Goligoski before he hit the open market. If he would have hit the open market he would have received much more imo. Logan Brown is a great prospect but I get the feeling you haven't seen Keller play much. I'd be willing to bet Keller comes much closer to being a player like Patrick Kane then Logan brown becomes the player you are hoping for. How are you surprised with the Vermette cut? Did you watch him play last year? Even if you don't like the DeAngelo trade there is no prospect that went in the 2nd round that has half of his potential. Now add in the fact that he's a RHS right defenseman, sign me up 10 out of 10 times. The only one I sort of agree with is the Letunov trade. But realistically he will probably never be an impact player in the NHL and he wasn't even in our top 15 prospects so it's hard to get too upset with that move.

Honestly I would give this offseason a 9/10. It's hard to imagine a scenario where I would be happier then I currently am with the outcome. I'm not 100% sold on the Vrbata signing but we really needed a rh rw and I really don't see many better options. Thinking about a Domi-Hanzal-Vrbata line also brings me back to 2012 so it's worth a shot. We drafted exactly who I wanted at 7 and somehow also managed to walk away with Chychrun. Our prospect pool of dmen looks a million times better then it did at this point last year. Huge step forward for this franchise. Great job Chayka and Tippett!