Ranking Mike Richter

[HVPOLARBEARS19]

Hey all, so there is a post on the Rangers forum asking where Mike Richter stands amongst the all time greats. Many of my fellow Ranger fans are saying top 20-25...I personally think that is ridiculous, but I could be wrong (though I highly doubt any of you non-Ranger fans rank him anywhere near that high)...I would say he's in the top 100...MAYBE the top 50, but even that is doubtful.

So, I ask you...where does he stand? Top 20? Top 50? Top 100? No where? He had the amazing 1994 season and post season, but then a lot of failures the rest of the way, though it is not in anyway directly his fault, but he was part of it nonetheless. I love Richter and he was always my favorite Rangers player, and he probably is the #1 Ranger goalie of all time, maybe aside from Giacomin (and maybe one day Lundqvist), but in comparison to some of the other greats?...I don't know. Thoughts?

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[Bear of Bad News]

Are you talking amongst goaltenders, or amongst all players?

 

[MXD]

Hey all, so there is a post on the Rangers forum asking where Mike Richter stands amongst the all time greats. Many of my fellow Ranger fans are saying top 20-25...I personally think that is ridiculous, but I could be wrong (though I highly doubt any of you non-Ranger fans rank him anywhere near that high)...I would say he's in the top 100...MAYBE the top 50, but even that is doubtful.

If they have him in their Top-20 of all time amongst goaltenders, well, they're indeed pretty lost. Let alone Top-20 of all-time amongst all players.

 

[Big Phil]

Hey all, so there is a post on the Rangers forum asking where Mike Richter stands amongst the all time greats. Many of my fellow Ranger fans are saying top 20-25...I personally think that is ridiculous, but I could be wrong (though I highly doubt any of you non-Ranger fans rank him anywhere near that high)...I would say he's in the top 100...MAYBE the top 50, but even that is doubtful.

So, I ask you...where does he stand? Top 20? Top 50? Top 100? No where? He had the amazing 1994 season and post season, but then a lot of failures the rest of the way, though it is not in anyway directly his fault, but he was part of it nonetheless. I love Richter and he was always my favorite Rangers player, and he probably is the #1 Ranger goalie of all time, maybe aside from Giacomin (and maybe one day Lundqvist), but in comparison to some of the other greats?...I don't know. Thoughts?

Richter couldnt hold Giacomin's jock IMO. Nothing against him but Giacomin is a HHOFer without a second thought and it would be highly suspect to see Richter get in there someday. Richter won a Cup and a World Cup, both of which he was brilliant in, but he had a bad knack of inconsistency, kinf of the goalie version of Claude Lemieux. You never knew whether or not Richter was going to robbed you blind ('94 Cup, '96 World Cup) or blow chunks ('98 Olympics, and pretty much '98-03). To me that isnt what I look for in a HHOFer.

To the people on the Rangers boards that consider him top 20-25 all time I thought just for fun I would randomly name at least 25 ahead of him:

Roy, Sawchuk, Hasek, Plante, Brodeur, Hall, Benedict, Broda, Dryden, Esposito, Parent, Smith, Fuhr, Belfour, Hainsworth, Vezina, Worsley, Bower, Vachon, Giacomin, Lumley, Durnan, Tretiak, Cheevers, Brimsek, Thompson, Worters, Rayner, Gardiner.

I got distracted, but that was 29 now that I count it.

This doesnt include current goalies on the outside of the HHOF waiting to get in that are on the bubble like Vernon, Barrasso and even Joseph and Chabot. Richter is pretty close to universally behind all of them. You could argue that Moog and Vanbiesbrouck are ahead of him too. So that puts him basically at a best case scenario of top 35 and that's also taking into consideration the names I left out. No, Richter won't nor should get in the Hall and he's surely not top 20 material

 

[Bill McCreary]

Hey all, so there is a post on the Rangers forum asking where Mike Richter stands amongst the all time greats. Many of my fellow Ranger fans are saying top 20-25...I personally think that is ridiculous, but I could be wrong (though I highly doubt any of you non-Ranger fans rank him anywhere near that high)...I would say he's in the top 100...MAYBE the top 50, but even that is doubtful.

So, I ask you...where does he stand? Top 20? Top 50? Top 100? No where? He had the amazing 1994 season and post season, but then a lot of failures the rest of the way, though it is not in anyway directly his fault, but he was part of it nonetheless. I love Richter and he was always my favorite Rangers player, and he probably is the #1 Ranger goalie of all time, maybe aside from Giacomin (and maybe one day Lundqvist), but in comparison to some of the other greats?...I don't know. Thoughts?

He isn't a top 200 player of all time and I wouldn't rank him in the top 30 or 40 of goaltenders.

 

[HVPOLARBEARS19]

Oops, sorry for the confusion, I meant all time goalies, not players. Sorry about that.

 

[Bill McCreary]

Oops, sorry for the confusion, I meant all time goalies, not players. Sorry about that.

Off the top of my head, goalies I think were better than Richter:

Brodeur
Barrasso
Roy
Hasek
Broda
Plante
Sawchuck
Hall
Esposito
Dryden
Parent
Smith
Fuhr
Joseph
Belfour
VanBiesbrouck
Vernon
Worsley
Giacomin

 

[MXD]

Off the top of my head, goalies I think were better than Richter:

Brodeur
Barrasso
Roy
Hasek
Broda
Plante
Sawchuck
Hall
Esposito
Dryden
Parent
Smith
Fuhr
Joseph
Belfour
VanBiesbrouck
Vernon
Worsley
Giacomin

with older greats like

Lumley
Brimsek
Thompson
Chabot
Connell
Benedict
Hainsworth
Plante
Vachon (not that old, actually...)

An interesting take on the subject would be to rank Richter with the Rangers best goalies - only taking their stint in NYC in consideration.

Of the four goalies that brought the Cup in NYC, two had very short stints, and only Dave Kerr (7 seasons) and Mike Richer(13 seasons, or is it 12?) had any kind of long stints. Richter played more years (but was not really good from 2000 onwards) than Kerr, but career are nowadays a bit longer than in Kerr's era.

And, of course, Ed Giacomin, Chuck Rayner and Gump Worsley would be considered.

 

[Bill McCreary]

Kirk McLean outplayed him in the 1994 SCF as well.

 

[finchster]

Ranger fans tend to over rate every player on that 94 team,

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Top-25 all-time is definitely absurd. Is Richter even clearly top-15 post-expansion? I'm not so certain.

Hasek, Roy, Brodeur, Belfour, Fuhr, Smith, Dryden, Esposito, Parent, and Giacomin are unarguably better IMO.

Barrasso, Vernon, Joseph, Vanbiesbrouk, and Vachon are certainly in the argument. Even Liut, Hextall, and Kolzig, though that may be stretching it a little.

By my count, during Richter's career 15 different goalies were first or second all-stars. Richter was never selected once. Now, I'm willing to concede he was better than the likes of Jim Carey and Byron Dafoe, but still.

 

[Big Phil]

Ranger fans tend to over rate every player on that 94 team,

Yeah I know, they retired Adam Braves number if that explains anything. Then they do the same to Bathgate who wore the same number almost making it look like an "oops" on the Rangers part. Two NYR in the last 50 years have won the Hart Trophy and Bathgate was one of them

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Kirk McLean outplayed him in the 1994 SCF as well.

If he had outplayed him, he would have won the Cup considering how close the series was.

To say that he outplayed him in the final is ludicrous on quite a few levels.

 

[HVPOLARBEARS19]

Ranger fans tend to over rate every player on that 94 team,

I'm not really sure that the players themselves are overrated, because in that year quite a few had incredible years, or were able to do things that will live in Ranger lure forever (like Matteau for example). Richter was unbelievable, Leetch and Messier great, Graves was terrific, Zubov amazing etc etc.

Nonetheless, the decision to retire Graves' number...eeeehhhhh a bit of a stretch if you ask me. I loved Graves when he was here, and he was undoubtedly a terrific guy while he was here. He donated an amazing amount of time and energy to charities and such. But, I don't know if that's number retirement worthy.

Unfortunately for the Rangers franchise (which I am a fan of), the last 70 seasons have ended happily one time...aside from the mercy endings of the horrible years. So 1994 is really all we have, and unfortunately it is still talked about constantly. Not that remembering a great season is bad, but the fact that the Rangers, despite being an Original 6 team, have had such limited success and such limited amount of super stars (I'm talking players like Jagr in his PRIME, Lemieux, Gretzky in his prime etc, or even more recent guys like Kane, Toews, Sid, Ovechkin...the Rangers have no face of their franchise now outside of Lundqvist), that there are really only so many great memories to draw upon that 1994 seems to be the only thing the Rangers can talk about.

Anyway back to the question at hand about Richter, I would agree that there is no way he is a top 20 all time goalie. But, what about say, top 40? Any chance there? I think it might still be a little bit of a stretch, but more within the realm of possibility. Some of the goalies from the 20's and 30's and such are almost lost into the annals of history, which make the comparison difficult for those guys, but many of you are more knowledgeable about the earliest players than I am, so I'd be interested to hear your take.

Hopefully Lundqvist could make a case for the top 20 legitimately when it's all said and done

 

[Big Phil]

If he had outplayed him, he would have won the Cup considering how close the series was.

To say that he outplayed him in the final is ludicrous on quite a few levels.

I'm not so sure about that, have you ever seen Game #1 of the '94 finals?

 

[Bill McCreary]

I'm not so sure about that, have you ever seen Game #1 of the '94 finals?

McLean outplayed Richter.

 

[Dagoon44]

Kirk McLean outplayed him in the 1994 SCF as well.

Nah I wouldn't go that far

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Nah I wouldn't go that far

I would. Without McLean, the Canucks get swept in four straight.

Richter played very well in the Finals, but McLean put in the sort of performance that would have earned a losing-team Smythe had the Rangers not had any strong candidates of their own.

 

[Jaysfanatic*]

He's top 100 at best. He only won his Stanley Cup because of the system. Mike Richter was a good goalie, not a great one. He only succeeded because of the team around him. Look at him with a crappy team. Missed the playoffs for years. Then got forced to retire early.

That said, if there's a Ranger I have respect for it's Mike Richter. He was a true Ranger through and through. Gave it his all and unfortunately had his career cut short. Good goalie, I'll give him top 50.

 

[Cake or Death]

Ranger fans tend to over rate every player on that 94 team,

That seems to be the case. But you have to remember, the last time we won a cup before '94 people were still getting around on horseback and the light bulb hadn't been invented yet. Even still, many of us seem to have a moderate grasp on reality. My own post was in response to someone saying Richter was better than Fuhr:

I think anyone who thinks Richter was better than Fuhr is insane. I also think it's important not to directly compare anyone from different eras. IMO you have to look at how good a guy was against the players in his day, maybe even in given seasons. In that respect, you could argue that at least half of the seasons in his career Richter probably wasn't even one of the 5 best goalies among his own peers. Richter's career top five finishes: once in save percentage, once in goals against, twice in wins. No Vezina. No first or second team all star. Only once a Vezina finalist, I believe.

I am a big fan of Richter, but if you make this thread outside of Ranger-land, I don't think anyone puts him in the top 25. I doubt they'd even put Richter in the Hall. Likely ahead of Richter: Hainsworth, Belfour, Esposito, Fuhr, Hasek, Benedict, Bower, Roy, Sawchuk, Brodeur, Chabot, Vezina, Broda, Cheevers, Durnan, Gardner, Rayner, Giacomin, Hall, Vernon, Hextall, Brimsek, Lindbergh, Lumley, Parent, Dryden, Plante, Smith, Thompson, Vachon, Worsley

That's probably 25 or 30 guys. You can probably tack in guys from the Hall that I can't remember or don't know. Other guys not in the hall that I can't think of. You could maybe argue a few current players and I'm sure there are a few old time greats we're not familiar with. If you really sat down and worked this out, Richter might not land in the top 50 all time.

For me personally, when I think of the careers and achievements of the truly all-time great goalies -- Roy, Plante, Sawchuk, Parent, Hasek, Hall, etc -- I have a real hard time looking at Richter in the same category as those guys. He was very good. But I believe he also had more losing seasons than winning seasons. That's simply not top 25 material.

 

[God Bless Canada]

I would say that Richter is somewhere in the 35-50 range. He was tremendous.

As for the HHOF, I say no. I think Vachon, Vernon and Barrasso were all better than Richter. Vachon will probably never reach the HHOF. Vernon and Barrasso will be snubbed again this year. (And for good reason, due to the strength of 2009's HHOF class).

 

[HVPOLARBEARS19]

Very interesting responses guys, I tend to agree with the general consensus that top 50 seems to be within range. While McLean played great in the Cup Finals (especially game 1), I don't know that I would say he out played Richter because Richter also played terrifically. That's not to take anything away from McLean, don't get me wrong.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

I would say that Richter is somewhere in the 35-50 range. He was tremendous.

As for the HHOF, I say no. I think Vachon, Vernon and Barrasso were all better than Richter. Vachon will probably never reach the HHOF. Vernon and Barrasso will be snubbed again this year. (And for good reason, due to the strength of 2009's HHOF class).

I came in to provide those exact two as examples I would put above Richter. Add to that players from the "recent era" like Beezer, Moog and Cujo (whom I hate, but would still rate above Richter), and I don't think we're talking top 30 goalies all-time. He would be hard pressed to get inserted into any talk of top 30 post '70s expansion, for that matter.

 

[Sonny Lamateena]

Since Vanbiesbrouk and Barrasso were better goaltenders why did team USA choose to go with the inferior goalie all the time? Team USA finished 2nd at the 91 Canada Cup, 1st at the 96 World Cup, 6th at the 98 Olympics, and 2nd at the 02 Olympics, how much better would they of done with their best goaltenders?

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Since Vanbiesbrouk and Barrasso were better goaltenders why did team USA choose to go with the inferior goalie all the time? Team USA finished 2nd at the 91 Canada Cup, 1st at the 96 World Cup, 6th at the 98 Olympics, and 2nd at the 02 Olympics, how much better would they of done with their best goaltenders?

Some goaltenders are better at international play - Bill Ranford to name one.