Rangers / Yankees comparison

[orland]

The Rangers appear to be following the Yankees playbook of trying to get younger and more athletic while continuing to compete for a championship. I think the attempt to contend for the Cup is an illusion at this point, with this group, and I would prefer to go for a rebuild and commitment to youth. We are not going to win the Cup with Girardi and Staal as top 4 defensemen. We simply don't have the talent at forward or dman to win it all.

We seem to have a surprisingly decent group of younger talent given all the draft picks traded away of the recent past. Lets develop Skjei, Diesel, Graves,
Buchenevich, Lindberg etc. and give prominent roles to Hayes, JT, and Kreider and see what we got. The Hank window is part of the illusion.

Unfortunately we have a coach ill suited for bringing along young talent but that is what would be best at this point, in my view.

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[patnyrnyg]

The Rangers appear to be following the Yankees playbook of trying to get younger and more athletic while continuing to compete for a championship. I think the attempt to contend for the Cup is an illusion at this point, with this group, and I would prefer to go for a rebuild and commitment to youth. We are not going to win the Cup with Girardi and Staal as top 4 defensemen. We simply don't have the talent at forward or dman to win it all.

We seem to have a surprisingly decent group of younger talent given all the draft picks traded away of the recent past. Lets develop Skjei, Diesel, Graves,
Buchenevich, Lindberg etc. and give prominent roles to Hayes, JT, and Kreider and see what we got. The Hank window is part of the illusion.

Unfortunately we have a coach ill suited for bringing along young talent but that is what would be best at this point, in my view.

At this point last year, who thought the Penguins would compete for a Cup?

 

[E-Train]

The good thing about the Yankees is that they're going to be sellers. No holding on to Yandle and giving up assets for Staal. If Cashman can pull off some strong deals, the system will be loaded. It's solid now but adding multiple top 100 prospects will change the look of the organization.

 

[Machinehead]

I made this same comparison yesterday. And it's not good.

The Yankees are essentially a .500 team with an underwhelming future who are STILL not sure if they're selling because "HEY WE'RE ONLY 3 GAMES OUT, WE COULD GET SWEPT IN THE PLAYOFFS!!!"

Being in the middle with delusions of grandeur is the worst spot to be in and that's exactly where the Rangers are going.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Lets hope the Rangers do a better job at the "being competitive" part because this Yankee team doesn't have the record or the interest level to grow much of anything at this point.

Anyway, this isn't a Yankee/Ranger thing, this is an NYC thing. Theres too much pride and not enough foresight with virtually all of the marquee NYC teams. You'll never see a rebuild/tank job unless its by accident (see: NY Knicks).

 

[GraveyTrain9]

at least the Yankees have the '09 world series trophy to show for being on the back-end of bad contracts

 

[nsvoyageurs]

I made this same comparison yesterday. And it's not good.

The Yankees are essentially a .500 team with an underwhelming future who are STILL not sure if they're selling because "HEY WE'RE ONLY 3 GAMES OUT, WE COULD GET SWEPT IN THE PLAYOFFS!!!"

Being in the middle with delusions of grandeur is the worst spot to be in and that's exactly where the Rangers are going.

This is so true. My fear is they will win enough games to convince Hal Steinbrenner and Randy Levine think they can make a long run. I think Cashman wants to move some vets, but Hal knows nothing about baseball (he's a numbers/financial guy; you would think he would want to move some big contracts to save at least some money...) and Levine is an idiot; he was one of George's bag men.

I still get the sense that until they make that first trade that resembles a deal for the future, they will stay the course. Once you make that first rebuild trade, it's gets easier to swallow after that You just keep going...lol

Gorton not moving Yandle at the deadline was DUMB. They knew he wasn't going to re-sign, get a good package back (they did move his rights before UFA, but the return was a fraction of what it would've been had he been moved in February).

 

[darko]

Unfortunately we have a coach ill suited for bringing along young talent but that is what would be best at this point, in my view.

What a load of croc. Hayes flourished under AV when he came here. It's not AV's fault Hayes' diet was burgers over the summer. Miller and Lindberg flourished last season. There is nothing wrong with making young players earn their playing time.

 

[darko]

The good thing about the Yankees is that they're going to be sellers. No holding on to Yandle and giving up assets for Staal. If Cashman can pull off some strong deals, the system will be loaded. It's solid now but adding multiple top 100 prospects will change the look of the organization.

The bad thing about the Yankees is that once Tex/A-rod/Sabathia contracts are off the books they'll start throwing money around again. Rinse and repeat.

Early to mid 00s would compare to the Yankees but not the past 10 years Rangers.

 

[orland]

What a load of croc. Hayes flourished under AV when he came here. It's not AV's fault Hayes' diet was burgers over the summer. Miller and Lindberg flourished last season. There is nothing wrong with making young players earn their playing time.

Here's a quote from Vancouver when assessing AV's failures there:“Vigneault needs to come to terms with the reality that veterans might not be the best thing for the team. He has to let the youth make mistakes and flourish without looking over their backs wondering when the ax is coming down. Vigneault’s subjective wheel of justice has helped breed an environment devoid of accountability and has taken away the team’s creativity.â€

Sound familiar. The only line that worked with EStaal was Lindberg and Stallberg. Then AV predictably buried Lindberg. The most promising breakout defense pairing last season was Yandle-McIlrath. AV buried McIlrath to go with arguably the two worst right dmen in the league last year - Girardi and Boyle. In fact it took AV half a season to replace Boyle with Yandle on the 1st team power play. Glass gets a free pass for his miserable play but each young player has to really earn their playing time. AV has it backwards. The Penguins turned it around when they got rid of their older dmen and 3rd and 4th line pluggers and replaced them with young promising players that Sullivan allowed to make mistakes and grow. BTW - statistically Hayes was not bad last year, especially when used at his natural position center - of course the advanced stats don't matter because he didn't pass AV's eye test. Yeah - so AV is the right coach to develop young talent - his tough love approach is BS. The game has passed him by.

AV time line with Rangers - 1st year - lost in 4th round, 2nd year - lost in 3rd round, 3rd year - lost in 1st round, upcoming year - might continue the trend and not get to any round.

 

[darko]

Lindberg slumped way before Eric Staal came here. Staal didn't work with anyone.

 

[orland]

Lindberg slumped way before Eric Staal came here. Staal didn't work with anyone.

Lindberg played 3 games with Staal/Lindberg and the line was outstanding. AV response - remove Lindberg. Sound familiar.

Here's the facts noted online:
What truly baffles here is that AV found the correct linemates for Eric Staal during his 3rd game as a Ranger - in between Viktor Stalberg and Oscar Lindberg. During their short-lived three game stance together, everyone could see that this line was dominating the play when they were on the ice. In terms of possession, they would accumulate an individual shot attempt differential of:
Staal: +23
Stalberg: +22
Lindberg: +22
After a 4-2 victory over Buffalo where Eric Staal would put 5 shots on net out of 6 attempts, the line was broken up with Rick Nash returning from injury. Nash and Staal were given two games with each other before AV realized it wasn't working. Rather than reuniting the proven line of Stalberg-Staal-Lindberg, AV rotated the carousel once again stashing Staal between Hayes and Miller for four games, Hayes and Kreider for one, and then Hayes and Fast where Staal would finish the season.

AV makes the worst personnel evaluations and decisions I have ever seen. He was undoubtedly part of the "brain trust" that evaluated Strahlman's play to be a function of playing with Mark Staal, and not the reverse. That disastrous trade sent us on the downward spiral we are in today.

 

[darko]

AV is far from perfect and has made his fair share of mistakes. Not giving young players a chance isn't one of them.

 

[patnyrnyg]

I don't think it is a good comparison at all. Heading into last season 1) The Yankees were not in the ALCS 3 of the previous 4 seasons. 2) They were not in the World Series 2 seasons prior. 3) They did not have the best record in the league the prior season. 4) It is much harder to make the play-offs in MLB than the NHL. When the Rangers made the deal for Staal they were firmly in play-off position. Making the play-offs was never in doubt.

 

[orland]

You're missing the point of the comparison. Both team got too old and are trying to retool and still stay somewhat competitive rather than go thru a total rebuild. Both teams are waiting for some terrible contracts to run out before they can truly compile a line-up that can truly compete for the championship.

 

[Calad]

Lindberg played 3 games with Staal/Lindberg and the line was outstanding. AV response - remove Lindberg. Sound familiar.

Here's the facts noted online:
What truly baffles here is that AV found the correct linemates for Eric Staal during his 3rd game as a Ranger - in between Viktor Stalberg and Oscar Lindberg. During their short-lived three game stance together, everyone could see that this line was dominating the play when they were on the ice. In terms of possession, they would accumulate an individual shot attempt differential of:
Staal: +23
Stalberg: +22
Lindberg: +22
After a 4-2 victory over Buffalo where Eric Staal would put 5 shots on net out of 6 attempts, the line was broken up with Rick Nash returning from injury. Nash and Staal were given two games with each other before AV realized it wasn't working. Rather than reuniting the proven line of Stalberg-Staal-Lindberg, AV rotated the carousel once again stashing Staal between Hayes and Miller for four games, Hayes and Kreider for one, and then Hayes and Fast where Staal would finish the season.

AV makes the worst personnel evaluations and decisions I have ever seen. He was undoubtedly part of the "brain trust" that evaluated Strahlman's play to be a function of playing with Mark Staal, and not the reverse. That disastrous trade sent us on the downward spiral we are in today.

Didn't it come out that Lindberg had both of his hip labra torn and that's why he is out till November? I have to imagine that when Lindberg was benched is when they found out about the injury.

 

[patnyrnyg]

You're missing the point of the comparison. Both team got too old and are trying to retool and still stay somewhat competitive rather than go thru a total rebuild. Both teams are waiting for some terrible contracts to run out before they can truly compile a line-up that can truly compete for the championship.

How are they too old? Their oldest guy is Lundqvist and he is 34. Which nowadays, is not old for a pro athlete. Nobody else is older than 32. Stepan is 26, Zucc is 28, Miller is 23, Kreider is 25, McDonagh is 27, Staal is 29, Skjei, McIlrath, all young. I could go on.

 

[Stephen Gionta]

The only comparison to be made between the Rangers and Yankees is that they are essentially the same type of team in their respective sports but one wins championships and the other doesn't.

 

[orland]

How are they too old? Their oldest guy is Lundqvist and he is 34. Which nowadays, is not old for a pro athlete. Nobody else is older than 32. Stepan is 26, Zucc is 28, Miller is 23, Kreider is 25, McDonagh is 27, Staal is 29, Skjei, McIlrath, all young. I could go on.

34 is old. The peak ages for a player now are 25-29, that's what the statistics have revealed, not 28-32 as previously thought. Nash, Lundquist, Girardi and Staal are past their peak years - pretty obvious by performance regardless of their ages.

One of the reasons the Bolts and Penguins excelled last year is the age of their players thru-out their lineup. That was one of the major changes the Penguins made during the past season - retooling on the fly with a new coach with a different philosophy. We do have a surprisingly (given trading away so many picks) decent young core so I would be fine with a rebuild focused on the younger players. It appears Gorton is trying to move that way but finding it nearly impossible to shed the dead weight contracts - Nash, Girardi and Staals. Unfortunately we have the worst coach in the league to nurture young players. He loves giving them his tough love while giving free passes to over the hill, under talented vets like Glass and Girardi.

 

[True Blue]

The only comparison to be made between the Rangers and Yankees is that they are essentially the same type of team in their respective sports but one wins championships and the other doesn't.

That summarizes it correctly. Lots can be forgiven if there is a history of bringing home the gold. And the Yankees have essentially done it better than any other sports franchise. Yes, they have had their ups and downs (and are in another downturn now), but they have won more than one friggin' championship in over 75 years.

 

[patnyrnyg]

34 is old. The peak ages for a player now are 25-29, that's what the statistics have revealed, not 28-32 as previously thought. Nash, Lundquist, Girardi and Staal are past their peak years - pretty obvious by performance regardless of their ages.

One of the reasons the Bolts and Penguins excelled last year is the age of their players thru-out their lineup. That was one of the major changes the Penguins made during the past season - retooling on the fly with a new coach with a different philosophy. We do have a surprisingly (given trading away so many picks) decent young core so I would be fine with a rebuild focused on the younger players. It appears Gorton is trying to move that way but finding it nearly impossible to shed the dead weight contracts - Nash, Girardi and Staals. Unfortunately we have the worst coach in the league to nurture young players. He loves giving them his tough love while giving free passes to over the hill, under talented vets like Glass and Girardi.

Ok, so even if I concede they are old, we are talking about 4 guys. What about the other 19 who will be on the roster?

 

[orland]

Ok, so even if I concede they are old, we are talking about 4 guys. What about the other 19 who will be on the roster?

Klein and Glass are in the 30's also. My real point is that this team as constituted is not likely to win the Cup so playing the older guys, as AV is prone to do, instead of developing the young talent is not the way to go.

It was criminal last year that AV buried McIlrath while playing Girardi and Boyle - who were both dreadful. And Glass, an AV fav, likely wouldn't even be in the league if not for AV's weird appreciation for him, takes a lot of playing time from Lindberg or even Hrivak, who showed at least some promise.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Klein and Glass are in the 30's also. My real point is that this team as constituted is not likely to win the Cup so playing the older guys, as AV is prone to do, instead of developing the young talent is not the way to go.

It was criminal last year that AV buried McIlrath while playing Girardi and Boyle - who were both dreadful. And Glass, an AV fav, likely wouldn't even be in the league if not for AV's weird appreciation for him, takes a lot of playing time from Lindberg or even Hrivak, who showed at least some promise.

This upcoming season? Yeah, I'd agree. Last season? Not so much considering the 3-4 seasons the team was coming off.

People make fun of AV's "one last kick at the can" comment, but that was the reality of last season -- and why virtually any NHL coach would've done the same thing unless mandated by management to play the kids. The Eric Staal trades gives you an idea of where management's head was at.

 

[orland]

This upcoming season? Yeah, I'd agree. Last season? Not so much considering the 3-4 seasons the team was coming off.

People make fun of AV's "one last kick at the can" comment, but that was the reality of last season -- and why virtually any NHL coach would've done the same thing unless mandated by management to play the kids. The Eric Staal trades gives you an idea of where management's head was at.

No question they were all in on the Lundquist window closing, etc. scenario to try to win the cup. My issue is AV's personnel decisions. Glass and Girardi were the two lowest Corsi players on the team and McIlrath was about the highest. AV's legendary "eye test" saw it differently and he stunted the growth of a promising young player for vets who were awful. And it took half a year for AV to replace a washed up Boyle with Yandle on 1st team power play.

I have no issue at all with going for it last year - even getting EStaal, which in retrospect was a disaster. Most teams that win the Cup make deadline tweaks for the run. When the opportunity presents you go for it. But the reliance on crappy veterans by AV never had a chance to work. The game has passed him by.

 

[Bluenote13]

No question they were all in on the Lundquist window closing, etc. scenario to try to win the cup. My issue is AV's personnel decisions. Glass and Girardi were the two lowest Corsi players on the team and McIlrath was about the highest. AV's legendary "eye test" saw it differently and he stunted the growth of a promising young player for vets who were awful. And it took half a year for AV to replace a washed up Boyle with Yandle on 1st team power play.

I have no issue at all with going for it last year - even getting EStaal, which in retrospect was a disaster. Most teams that win the Cup make deadline tweaks for the run. When the opportunity presents you go for it. But the reliance on crappy veterans by AV never had a chance to work. The game has passed him by.

You really grasping at straws if you think he stunted the growth of the young players. Mci, Miller, Lindberg had their highest NHL minutes this past season. McIlrath was given more icetime this past season than other nhl comparables in their first full season.