Post-Game Talk: Rangers at Islanders 10/29/13

[eco's bones]

People forget a lot of stuff about Dubinsky. When we drafted him he was about 5'10 and 165 lbs. He was talented but also a pest kind of player--voted most hated player by players in his WHL division that same year. People back then were projecting him to be a Darcy Tucker type. 3 years later he's 6'1 and 210 lbs and quite literally he had to change his style of game. I don't think that that was very easy. Jagr kind of mentored him in how to use his size and strength.

He's a very good player for Columbus these days--definitely in their top 6 and deservingly so. He's an all situation player who will play physically and he's been putting up a lot of points if not goals. He's also become really, really good on face-offs. The Bluejackets are getting good value for the contract he signed while with the Rangers even if the Rangers didn't.

As for comparing him to Miller--I think JT has a stronger and more compact frame to work with. There's a real edge to his game similar to Dubinsky. JT strikes me as having a somewhat better hockey IQ. Miller has leadership written all over him. There are times he seems a bit over his head though. No way I'd dress Pyatt over him.

 

[Hire Sather]

I will always believe the Jagr had a big part in developing/mentoring Dubinsky's game.

I miss Dubi, and its a shame how this trade has panned out... but I would still do it today. Dubi is good but not worth his contract.

 

[Ghost of jas]

People forget a lot of stuff about Dubinsky. When we drafted him he was about 5'10 and 165 lbs. He was talented but also a pest kind of player--voted most hated player by players in his WHL division that same year. People back then were projecting him to be a Darcy Tucker type. 3 years later he's 6'1 and 210 lbs and quite literally he had to change his style of game. I don't think that that was very easy. Jagr kind of mentored him in how to use his size and strength.

He's a very good player for Columbus these days--definitely in their top 6 and deservingly so. He's an all situation player who will play physically and he's been putting up a lot of points if not goals. He's also become really, really good on face-offs. The Bluejackets are getting good value for the contract he signed while with the Rangers even if the Rangers didn't.

As for comparing him to Miller--I think JT has a stronger and more compact frame to work with. There's a real edge to his game similar to Dubinsky. JT strikes me as having a somewhat better hockey IQ. Miller has leadership written all over him. There are times he seems a bit over his head though. No way I'd dress Pyatt over him.

The other thing about Dubi 's growth spurt is that it effected his balance. He still has balance issues to this day. Butch Goring tried to make the claim that Dubi dove on a penalty late in the CBJ-NYI game a few weeks back, until he realized that Dubi was on his ass a lot due to his poor balance. Miller has a more natural stride as a skater than Dubi.

 

[94now]

The move to Brooklyn won't affect the Rangers one iota. Especially not to Barclay's, a arena not built for hockey.

The longer Ranger keep Sather in charge, the more NYI converts or just straight fans will be in NYC. On the other hand when Sather gone and Rangers will improve, there might be more Ranger fans from LI, since MSG will be as far as Barclay.

 

[Clown Fiesta]

I will always believe the Jagr had a big part in developing/mentoring Dubinsky's game.

I miss Dubi, and its a shame how this trade has panned out... but I would still do it today. Dubi is good but not worth his contract.

Not sure how it's a shame and not sure we can consider it as having panned out after a shortened season.

 

[eco's bones]

The other thing about Dubi 's growth spurt is that it effected his balance. He still has balance issues to this day. Butch Goring tried to make the claim that Dubi dove on a penalty late in the CBJ-NYI game a few weeks back, until he realized that Dubi was on his ass a lot due to his poor balance. Miller has a more natural stride as a skater than Dubi.

That's true. I remember his first pro season. He was called up for 6 games. He was feisty and rambunctious but he was getting knocked down very easily. Kind of like a new born puppy. The pins weren't strong enough.

Jagr taught him how to cycle the puck--how to barrel his way through hits without losing control of the puck. You could see it actually happening over the course of the last half of his rookie NHL season. The first half of that season Dubi was a 3rd/4th liner who didn't produce much. The second half he was put with Jagr and his game just took a big leap forward.

Miller has a solider frame. He's not as outwardly emotional as Dubinsky. He's got a real edge but seems a more mature player. Miller I think will start dropping the gloves too like Dubinsky used to--he has a no nonsense willful approach to the way he plays. Dubinsky is in a good situation for himself right now--he's with a team that can use him in a way that highlights his abilities. I think he could become a 60 point player for Columbus if he doesn't miss any games. Not sure where Miller's upside with the Rangers is--I'd guess 45-50 points when he peaks.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

Kreider will not be utilized like Kesler. That will undoubtedly be Miller. Miller most closely resembles Kesler - in terms of skill, playing style, frame, and intensity.

As for those who are getting on Miller. I'll give the same arguments I gave when you all got on Kreider. Be ****ing patient. These are kids. They grip their sticks tighter than the vets. They overthink a lot more than the vets. As with anyone who is new to something, they'll hit bumps. However, both Miller and Kreider are NHL ready. Everyone expects that when a prospect is "NHL ready" that they'll come right in and tear the world apart. It doesn't happen that way. NHL ready simply means that the prospect is finally ready to play consistently in the NHL - that is the next step in their development. They all hit bumps, it's inevitable.

Miller, for those who have forgotten, is a player that gets stronger with every game he plays in a certain league. He started World Juniors out slow and then turned it on for the end like no other. Same goes for his other minor league developmental teams. Slow start, dominant end. He gets stronger and stronger with every coming game. The same can be said about his NHL stint last year. Stronger and stronger until his injury. Give him time.

As for Kreider-Kesler comparisons - that's not at all the type of player Kreider is. That's much closer to what Miller will be.

Lines when Nash and Cally come back:

Nash-Richards-Cally
Kreider-Stepan-Zucc
Miller-Brassard-Hagelin
Boyle-Moore-Dorsett

 

[Raspewtin]

With everyone healthy my lineup would be:

Richards-Brassard-Nash
Kreider-Stepan-Zuccarello
Hagelin-Miller-Callahan
Boyle-Moore-Dorsett

although the way Pouliot's been playing I think he stays here.

 

[FOD]

Kreider will not be utilized like Kesler. That will undoubtedly be Miller. Miller most closely resembles Kesler - in terms of skill, playing style, frame, and intensity.

As for those who are getting on Miller. I'll give the same arguments I gave when you all got on Kreider. Be ****ing patient. These are kids. They grip their sticks tighter than the vets. They overthink a lot more than the vets. As with anyone who is new to something, they'll hit bumps. However, both Miller and Kreider are NHL ready. Everyone expects that when a prospect is "NHL ready" that they'll come right in and tear the world apart. It doesn't happen that way. NHL ready simply means that the prospect is finally ready to play consistently in the NHL - that is the next step in their development. They all hit bumps, it's inevitable.

Miller, for those who have forgotten, is a player that gets stronger with every game he plays in a certain league. He started World Juniors out slow and then turned it on for the end like no other. Same goes for his other minor league developmental teams. Slow start, dominant end. He gets stronger and stronger with every coming game. The same can be said about his NHL stint last year. Stronger and stronger until his injury. Give him time.

As for Kreider-Kesler comparisons - that's not at all the type of player Kreider is. That's much closer to what Miller will be.

Lines when Nash and Cally come back:

Nash-Richards-Cally
Kreider-Stepan-Zucc
Miller-Brassard-Hagelin
Boyle-Moore-Dorsett

I would love to see that. I just don't see the Rangers sitting Pouliot for one of the kids no matter how well they are playing. I'm not even so sure about Pyatt.

 

[Clown Fiesta]

Miller has always shown more than Kreider in terms of raw talent and hockey knowledge. Now with Kreider pouring it on and being engaged he's definitely had the upper hand the last few games. But overall game goes to Miller and I'm excited for what he could end up being. Happy with both of them now, Kreider really irritated me previously when given a chance because he was playing timid. A switch went off and he's beasting it now.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

Miller has always shown more than Kreider in terms of raw talent and hockey knowledge. Now with Kreider pouring it on and being engaged he's definitely had the upper hand the last few games. But overall game goes to Miller and I'm excited for what he could end up being. Happy with both of them now, Kreider really irritated me previously when given a chance because he was playing timid. A switch went off and he's beasting it now.

That's not true. Miller doesn't have more raw talent than Kreider. More hockey IQ? Maybe. They have different purposes on the ice and thus different mentalities. Kreider is to score goals. Defensively that's why he started off so weak. He cherry picked at BC, he'd cheat. He wants to put the puck in behind the net.

Miller is much more of an all around player. Shoot first but that's just to shoot and induce a rebound. He's not about locating upper shelf unless he's on a break away or penalty shoot out. He's much conscious defensively because he has to be - he was a center. He looks to pass more and thus his mindset is find the best play available rather than score a goal.

In terms of raw ability though, given time, Kreider is gonna make some dazzling moves. He's not Bure with his hands but his skill is pretty high. Higher than Miller's at least.

 

[NYRPat21]

Also the Brooklyn chants were hysterical, I don't know if they came up over the broadcast.

 

[Championship*]

Also the Brooklyn chants were hysterical, I don't know if they came up over the broadcast.

I didn't catch them. By Rangers fans I'm guessing?

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

I would love to see that. I just don't see the Rangers sitting Pouliot for one of the kids no matter how well they are playing. I'm not even so sure about Pyatt.

I mean... look at it this way. Cally won't be back for another 2-3 weeks. Let's say Nash returns around the same time.

In that time Miller continues to get stronger every game and look like he should stick. Kreider continues to seize the opportunity at hand and provide much needed offense.

Who are the odd men out? Pyatt. He's not doing much of anything. Not a fighter. Not a goal scorer. Not a forechecker. Not a penalty killer.

Pouloit. He's had 2 good games. Maybe he finds chemistry with Hagelin and tears it apart. But historically speaking that's exactly why he's a journey man. He's never had consistency with any team. Shows flashes but even longer droughts. If he was to regress to his mean, it'll be much lower standard of play than both ascending prospects - Kreider and Miller... hypothetically.

Yes Vigneault might choose vets over rooks, but if they continue playing the way they are there is absolutely no way that either of them gets sent down to keep Pyatt and/or Pouloit.

Look for Pyatt to be traded or waived and Pouloit to be the scratch.

Fans will go ballistic if Kreider is sent down again. He got a top 3 ovation at MSG against the Habs.

Fans will go ballistic if Miller is sent down eventually because in the next 2-3 weeks I fully expect him to make an impression on everyone watching the games.

 

[Raspewtin]

I can't wait till the Isles move to Brooklyn. I can watch Ranger games in the beautiful Barclays center rather than that **** heap in Uniondale, along with the 10,000 other NYR Fans

 

[Clown Fiesta]

That's not true. Miller doesn't have more raw talent than Kreider. More hockey IQ? Maybe. They have different purposes on the ice and thus different mentalities. Kreider is to score goals. Defensively that's why he started off so weak. He cherry picked at BC, he'd cheat. He wants to put the puck in behind the net.

Miller is much more of an all around player. Shoot first but that's just to shoot and induce a rebound. He's not about locating upper shelf unless he's on a break away or penalty shoot out. He's much conscious defensively because he has to be - he was a center. He looks to pass more and thus his mindset is find the best play available rather than score a goal.

In terms of raw ability though, given time, Kreider is gonna make some dazzling moves. He's not Bure with his hands but his skill is pretty high. Higher than Miller's at least.

I said he has shown more, so no it's not wrong. He came in at a younger age than Kreider and scored some nice goals, created some nice chances and played a good all around game. While aside from his playoff performance Kreider hasn't shown much. Overall Kreider has more offensive flair and potential, but I think people are discrediting Miller in that category. Either way I'm happy they're both here now and partying well.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

I said he has shown more, so no it's not wrong. He came in at a younger age than Kreider and scored some nice goals, created some nice chances and played a good all around game. While aside from his playoff performance Kreider hasn't shown much. Overall Kreider has more offensive flair and potential, but I think people are discrediting Miller in that category. Either way I'm happy they're both here now and partying well.

Not discrediting Miller, just don't think he's shown more raw talent or has more raw talent than Kreider.

 

[Clown Fiesta]

Not discrediting Miller, just don't think he's shown more raw talent or has more raw talent than Kreider.

I don't disagree that at the top of their game Kreider will be the more offensive player, but that's not the only meaning of talent. Over the roughly 30 regular season games they've played up until recently I thought Miller showed more. Maybe it was poor verbiage.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

I don't disagree that at the top of their game Kreider will be the more offensive player, but that's not the only meaning of talent. Over the roughly 30 regular season games they've played up until recently I thought Miller showed more. Maybe it was poor verbiage.

Wouldn't "talent" suggest abilities? Kreider > Miller in skating. Kreider > Miller in goal scoring ability. Kreider > Miller in instincts. Miller > Kreider in stick handling ability. Kreider = Miller in passing + creativity.

But I guess in IQ Miller > Kreider in decisions and on ice positioning.

 

[NYRPat21]

I didn't catch them. By Rangers fans I'm guessing?

Yeah it was great especially while leaving the Coliseum.

 

[Clown Fiesta]

Wouldn't "talent" suggest abilities? Kreider > Miller in skating. Kreider > Miller in goal scoring ability. Kreider > Miller in instincts. Miller > Kreider in stick handling ability. Kreider = Miller in passing + creativity.

But I guess in IQ Miller > Kreider in decisions and on ice positioning.

Sure in your opinion. I'll give you skating. Outside of that it's a little too early don't you think?

 

[pld459666]

The longer Ranger keep Sather in charge, the more NYI converts or just straight fans will be in NYC. On the other hand when Sather gone and Rangers will improve, there might be more Ranger fans from LI, since MSG will be as far as Barclay.

The only thing that will happen is that new born babies and kids still young enough where they are forming their rooting interests will be a bit more apt to root for a team in a borough they live in.

The converts will be marginal at best.

 

[Bardof425*]

Your eyes deceive you.

Boyle played 7.6 minutes with Brassard, 7.0 minutes with Miller, 3.5 minutes with Dorsett and 2.8 minutes with Pyatt. Boyle won 67% of his faceoffs.

So my question is: if your eyes can't pick up such facts which are cut and dry as that, why do you trust them as your sole source on hockey player's value?

You said he was poor in the dot; i trusted your assessment. As for his linemates, that's not all that consequential. The only thing I've asserted is that the fast pace game doesn't play to his strengths. The numbers you cite do not refute that.

 

[gary laser eyes]

I changed my username right before the game. This win is all on me

But seriously, with all the negativity going on around here after the terrible start, the team is only 3 points out of 2nd in the division with a game in hand. The Metro division has been terrible so far.

Let's all step away from the ledge

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

Sure in your opinion. I'll give you skating. Outside of that it's a little too early don't you think?

Well i've seen 3 years of Kreider more than probably anyone else on this board. He's really talented. I've only really seen WJC w/ Miller before his time with the Rangers.

Raw meaning unrefined, I would say that he has more unrefined and untapped offensive potential than Miller.

Kreider should score more goal scorers goals while Miller should be scoring the grittier clean up goals. I could be wrong. Just what I think their roles will evolve to be based on what I perceive to be their skill set.