OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: Ugh, Milwaukee
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DJ Spinoza
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- Aug 7, 2003
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Jaded-Fan
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Well shows how much you all know.
ESPN says that the Price to the Pirates trade 'MUST' happen.
Four trades that must happen
David Price to Pittsburgh is among a quartet of swaps that make perfect sense
Updated: December 6, 2013, 11:28 AM ET
By Dave Cameron | ESPN Insider
David Price makes more sense for the Pirates than any other potential suitor.
It's already been an active winter on the trade market, with Doug Fister, Prince Fielder, Jim Johnson, Peter Bourjos and Dexter Fowler being among the more prominent names changing cities.
Here at Insider, we would like to encourage this hot stove to keep raging out of control, so here are four more trades that should happen posthaste.
Tampa Bay Rays trade: LHP David Price
Pittsburgh Pirates send back: RHP Tyler Glasnow, RHP Nick Kingham, SS Alen Hanson, OF Josh Bell
http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/stor...ice-pittsburgh-pirates-trades-need-happen-mlb
ESPN says that the Price to the Pirates trade 'MUST' happen.
Four trades that must happen
David Price to Pittsburgh is among a quartet of swaps that make perfect sense
Updated: December 6, 2013, 11:28 AM ET
By Dave Cameron | ESPN Insider
David Price makes more sense for the Pirates than any other potential suitor.
It's already been an active winter on the trade market, with Doug Fister, Prince Fielder, Jim Johnson, Peter Bourjos and Dexter Fowler being among the more prominent names changing cities.
Here at Insider, we would like to encourage this hot stove to keep raging out of control, so here are four more trades that should happen posthaste.
Tampa Bay Rays trade: LHP David Price
Pittsburgh Pirates send back: RHP Tyler Glasnow, RHP Nick Kingham, SS Alen Hanson, OF Josh Bell
http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/stor...ice-pittsburgh-pirates-trades-need-happen-mlb
Big McLargehuge
Fragile Traveler
Tampa is looking to make "a Herschel Walker trade". You're not getting him for that assemblage of prospects, it would take Taillon and Polanco and more.
It would be the dumbest thing that the Pirates could ever do...without having David Littlefield involved.
It would be the dumbest thing that the Pirates could ever do...without having David Littlefield involved.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
Losing Glasnow and Kingham is worse. If you look at what Glasnow did this past year it puts him easily on pace (actually more dominant) than Taillon was at the same stage. Kingham will be a valuable #3 or 4 in the bigs as well. Hanson AND Bell on top of it? No thanks.
This idea that we CAN'T afford Price is asinine and typical, close minded thinking, that comes along with the Pirates of the past 2 decades.
Price will make between 30-35M over the next 2 years in arbitration. If we're willing to sign an AJ Burnett for 10-12M per, why can't we afford a Cy Young pitcher for 15M per over the next 2? With increased internal revenue and outside help via TV deals, we can EASILY afford it. We're not talking paying a guy 20M+ over the next 5-10 years here.
Especially when you consider Liriano, Martin AND Wandy come off the books next year and we likely can't afford the first 2 if they perform as they did in 2013. Wandy won't be retained anyway regardless.
Liriano clears 6M
Wandy clears 13M (well half, 7.5, IIRC)
Martin clears 8.5M
That's 22M free via 3 players.
Yes, i also understand that other players will get raises and whatnot, but the idea that David Price is so far and away out of our ballpark in terms of cost, is a farce. Quite a big farce as i see it. Price, if he pitches like a Cy Young is more than worth 15-17M per in arbitration for this team especially that is constricted more so than 85% of the league.
It comes down to whether or not you want to move prospects like Taillon and others for 2 years of DP.
I've already outlined why we can and should make a move.
One, we have the farm system to do it, and two, we are not terribly far off from being a realistic WS contender.
Look at the insane top end OF talent we have (and depth) for instance.
MLB:
Cutch
Marte
Tabata
MINOR:
Polanco
Meadows
Bell
Ramirez
Garcia
Barnes
among others
We have the best crop of OF in baseball and to me it's not that close really. The point of that is, where do they all project? I'm not naive enough to think they all pan out to good-great MLBers, but all the guys listed have either star or solid ceilings as of now.
Cutch is not going anywhere, at least until he plays out his contract, period. You don't move MVP, face of the franchise, anti Barry Bonds types. He might walk for a mega deal 5 years from now, but that's the only way he leaves.
Polanco and Meadows project as stars at the MLB level. Bell a notch behind them. There are only 3 OF positions and as of now 2 are locked down long term with Polanco possibly being the 3rd as early as this season. Now, i see Meadows eventually being our LF and Marte traded (if Polanco pans out) for a very good haul. You still have a very good group besides that to work with. Trading a Bell and a lower rated player doesn't do much to hurt us.
It's the exact same story with P. You have Taillon, Glasnow, Kingham, Heredia, Pimentel, Cumpton, Holmes, Rodriguez etc. Our P depth is insane right now.
Let's say you move Taillon. Have you destroyed the farm sytem in term of SP? I certainly don't think so. Not with the ceiling levels of more than a few of those guys.
http://www.piratesprospects.com/2014payroll
The projected payroll is 66M. Even if you added a 15M figure for Price, that only takes you to 81M which is hardly out of the realm of realism given the increased internal and external incomes.
It comes down to dealing from position of strengths. You only have so many holes available to fill, both short and long term. You simply can't keep everyone, whether it's MLB or prospect level players.
If the Rays took Taillon, Bell, Holmes and say Mattisen for Price, how does that destroy what Neal has built? Seriously. Have we kicked out the foundation that got us to 94 wins or did we just greatly enhance our chances of winning a WS in 14 or 15? The Rays for all of their doings have exactly 0 WS rings. Now if they want Taillon, Polanco, Bell and more, you walk, period. I don't want people thinking, i per say, am advocating we deal half of our top 10 prospects away. THAT IS stupid.
We would still have Glasnow, Kingham, Heredia, Cumpton, Rodriguez, among others coming up. And by the time Price's contract ran out, all but Heredia are likely MLB ready.
Same thing with OF or C IMO.
Yes we are weak at the corner IF spots from an org. standpoint, but a deal for Price doesn't affect that one way or the other most likely.
You improve that by moving guys like Neal Walker and Pedro before they hit FA. Or surplus parts at positions of strength in the minors.
Just food for thought.
This idea that we CAN'T afford Price is asinine and typical, close minded thinking, that comes along with the Pirates of the past 2 decades.
Price will make between 30-35M over the next 2 years in arbitration. If we're willing to sign an AJ Burnett for 10-12M per, why can't we afford a Cy Young pitcher for 15M per over the next 2? With increased internal revenue and outside help via TV deals, we can EASILY afford it. We're not talking paying a guy 20M+ over the next 5-10 years here.
Especially when you consider Liriano, Martin AND Wandy come off the books next year and we likely can't afford the first 2 if they perform as they did in 2013. Wandy won't be retained anyway regardless.
Liriano clears 6M
Wandy clears 13M (well half, 7.5, IIRC)
Martin clears 8.5M
That's 22M free via 3 players.
Yes, i also understand that other players will get raises and whatnot, but the idea that David Price is so far and away out of our ballpark in terms of cost, is a farce. Quite a big farce as i see it. Price, if he pitches like a Cy Young is more than worth 15-17M per in arbitration for this team especially that is constricted more so than 85% of the league.
It comes down to whether or not you want to move prospects like Taillon and others for 2 years of DP.
I've already outlined why we can and should make a move.
One, we have the farm system to do it, and two, we are not terribly far off from being a realistic WS contender.
Look at the insane top end OF talent we have (and depth) for instance.
MLB:
Cutch
Marte
Tabata
MINOR:
Polanco
Meadows
Bell
Ramirez
Garcia
Barnes
among others
We have the best crop of OF in baseball and to me it's not that close really. The point of that is, where do they all project? I'm not naive enough to think they all pan out to good-great MLBers, but all the guys listed have either star or solid ceilings as of now.
Cutch is not going anywhere, at least until he plays out his contract, period. You don't move MVP, face of the franchise, anti Barry Bonds types. He might walk for a mega deal 5 years from now, but that's the only way he leaves.
Polanco and Meadows project as stars at the MLB level. Bell a notch behind them. There are only 3 OF positions and as of now 2 are locked down long term with Polanco possibly being the 3rd as early as this season. Now, i see Meadows eventually being our LF and Marte traded (if Polanco pans out) for a very good haul. You still have a very good group besides that to work with. Trading a Bell and a lower rated player doesn't do much to hurt us.
It's the exact same story with P. You have Taillon, Glasnow, Kingham, Heredia, Pimentel, Cumpton, Holmes, Rodriguez etc. Our P depth is insane right now.
Let's say you move Taillon. Have you destroyed the farm sytem in term of SP? I certainly don't think so. Not with the ceiling levels of more than a few of those guys.
http://www.piratesprospects.com/2014payroll
The projected payroll is 66M. Even if you added a 15M figure for Price, that only takes you to 81M which is hardly out of the realm of realism given the increased internal and external incomes.
It comes down to dealing from position of strengths. You only have so many holes available to fill, both short and long term. You simply can't keep everyone, whether it's MLB or prospect level players.
If the Rays took Taillon, Bell, Holmes and say Mattisen for Price, how does that destroy what Neal has built? Seriously. Have we kicked out the foundation that got us to 94 wins or did we just greatly enhance our chances of winning a WS in 14 or 15? The Rays for all of their doings have exactly 0 WS rings. Now if they want Taillon, Polanco, Bell and more, you walk, period. I don't want people thinking, i per say, am advocating we deal half of our top 10 prospects away. THAT IS stupid.
We would still have Glasnow, Kingham, Heredia, Cumpton, Rodriguez, among others coming up. And by the time Price's contract ran out, all but Heredia are likely MLB ready.
Same thing with OF or C IMO.
Yes we are weak at the corner IF spots from an org. standpoint, but a deal for Price doesn't affect that one way or the other most likely.
You improve that by moving guys like Neal Walker and Pedro before they hit FA. Or surplus parts at positions of strength in the minors.
Just food for thought.
Last edited:
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
Big McLargehuge
Fragile Traveler
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
Oh no doubt. There are a handful of guys who are dumb enough to move their 3 or 4 best prospects for him. It definitely seems like Seattle is pushing all their chips in over the next few years.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
Yep. Seems that way.
I wouldn't have minded Beltran for 2 years here, although 15M per is a bit much for a guy about to be 37, but hey it's a f'ing Yanks. Dude is arguably the greatest postseason hitter ever though.
DJ Spinoza
Registered User
- Aug 7, 2003
- 25,349
- 3,874
Guys, Nate McLouth is going to make 10.75 over two years.
If we end up with Loney at 10 mil/year, it will be a relief (not that McLouth's contract really effects it). With Napoli off the market, Loney is pretty much the last guy standing unless there's a trade. I don't know how many teams are actively looking for a 1B.
If we end up with Loney at 10 mil/year, it will be a relief (not that McLouth's contract really effects it). With Napoli off the market, Loney is pretty much the last guy standing unless there's a trade. I don't know how many teams are actively looking for a 1B.
Jesus Vitale
Formerly CPZ17
Provide the Pirates don't trade some outfielders in the near future and Polanco turns out to be the real deal and make it to the majors soon, what'll become of Bell/Meadows/other OF prospects? Where do OFs usually switch to? 1st or 3rd?
Cuz it looks like there'd be no room any time soon.
Cuz it looks like there'd be no room any time soon.
JimmyTwoTimes
Registered User
- Apr 13, 2010
- 19,958
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Bell will be going to 1st if he pans out(hopefully takes a big step forward next season) , that's already a certainty.
And we will likely be trading others. It's going to be Marte - Cutch - Polanco until Meadows is ready in about 3 years. I see Barnes being moved in the near future. And if Garcia improves more....could get something nice in return from him as well.
Gallatin
A Banksy of Goonism
This is a great article on Fangraphs. It dives into the potential valuation of a straight up Polanco for Price trade. And I found the comments at the end quite illuminating as a bunch of smart guys argued it out.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-price-for-david-price/
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-price-for-david-price/
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
I agree quite a bit with the proven vs unproven argument. I LOVE Polanco as a prospect and quite frankly would not part with him in a deal for Price but the fact remains he has zero MLB experience and we cannot know his true value. We can project but that's a crap shoot with prospects in baseball, especially.
Price is an elite LH pitcher who has Cy Young credentials, at 28 years old. We have much more knowledge of his value than Polanco. Again, i'm personally not moving Polanco in a deal for Price and i think the Royals were morons for moving Wil Myers but that doesn't mean i don't think we should write off a deal like i outlined above. Now, would the Rays take a Taillon, Bell, Holmes+? Not at the moment i imagine, but if the idiots can hold off long enough the Rays will budge. They are a team that can't afford to let Price walk for nothing. They'll take the best offer they can get.
Price is an elite LH pitcher who has Cy Young credentials, at 28 years old. We have much more knowledge of his value than Polanco. Again, i'm personally not moving Polanco in a deal for Price and i think the Royals were morons for moving Wil Myers but that doesn't mean i don't think we should write off a deal like i outlined above. Now, would the Rays take a Taillon, Bell, Holmes+? Not at the moment i imagine, but if the idiots can hold off long enough the Rays will budge. They are a team that can't afford to let Price walk for nothing. They'll take the best offer they can get.
Oxide
Registered User
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/12/pirates-planning-to-meet-with-bronson-arroyos-agent.html#disqus_thread
Pirates are going to meet with Arroyo's agent.
Pirates are going to meet with Arroyo's agent.
bradshaw06
Registered User
Oxide
Registered User
https://twitter.com/jonmorosi/status/410101103821602816
Jon Morosi@jonmorosi
Pirates discussing multiple trade options for first base vacancy, including Adam Lind and Logan Morrison, sources say.
Jon Morosi@jonmorosi
Pirates discussing multiple trade options for first base vacancy, including Adam Lind and Logan Morrison, sources say.
DJ Spinoza
Registered User
- Aug 7, 2003
- 25,349
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Trumbo rumors are starting up again, but I've seen no talk of Pirates linked to him.
I don't like the idea of Arroyo at all. Morrison would be a pretty big gamble, and I think I'd prefer overspending on Loney and at least having the guarantee of his defense. I guess it might depend on what it would cost to get Morrison--the Rays are interested, which is probably a good sign (in terms of whether to be interested in him).
I don't like the idea of Arroyo at all. Morrison would be a pretty big gamble, and I think I'd prefer overspending on Loney and at least having the guarantee of his defense. I guess it might depend on what it would cost to get Morrison--the Rays are interested, which is probably a good sign (in terms of whether to be interested in him).
Big McLargehuge
Fragile Traveler
Rico Fatastic
Registered User
- Jul 28, 2002
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Winger for Hire
Praise Beebo
https://twitter.com/jperrotto/status/410147011254431744
John Perrotto @jperrotto 20h
#Pirates and #Marlins have talked a Logan Morrison-for-Josh Harrison trade with Pirates adding a second unknown player.
Pending the "unknown player" I'd be pretty happy with this.
John Perrotto @jperrotto 20h
#Pirates and #Marlins have talked a Logan Morrison-for-Josh Harrison trade with Pirates adding a second unknown player.
Pending the "unknown player" I'd be pretty happy with this.
Big McLargehuge
Fragile Traveler
Morrison would be a pretty lousy upgrade at first, but depending on who that second player is, at least he'd be cheap.
There's still absolutely no explaining the Marlins' strategy of dumping Morrison to get Garrett Jones, though. Morrison is only 26...Jones is 32. Which one would you bet more on having a bounce-back season?
There's still absolutely no explaining the Marlins' strategy of dumping Morrison to get Garrett Jones, though. Morrison is only 26...Jones is 32. Which one would you bet more on having a bounce-back season?
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
Not a bad trade, pretty ho hum really. Morrison's best year, 2011 wasn't even worth an even 0 WAR. He's got upside but is a dirt cheap option. If that's the best we can do at 1B and we are staying internal in RF, i'll be a bit pissed coming off the year we just had. There is more money to use, especially if AJ doesn't come back. Rather have Loney for 7M over 3 years.
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