OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: Return of the Bastardo Part 59

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[NewAgeOutlaw]

Glasnow is not good enough for this level. Either send him down or trade all of the vets and go full rebuild.

 

[clefty]

He looks more and more like a reliever to me.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Glasnow is not good enough for this level. Either send him down or trade all of the vets and go full rebuild.

Glasnow was good enough in 7 of his last 8 starts. He's a guy that will give you good enough #5 performances on most nights that will occasionally have an atrocious outing. He's not going to improve by being sent down.

 

[DanielPlainview]

- Kuhl has struggled in last four starts, posting a 7.46 ERA, 5.24 FIP, 1.657 WHIP while averaging <5 IP.

- Williams has been decent since his dreadful first outing: 4.14 ERA, 4.37 ERA, 1.184 WHIP, ~5 IP per game.

- Glasnow is improved (tonight's struggles notwithstanding) but still pitching like a #5. The problem is we have 3 back-end guys in the rotation right now. Getting Taillon back will be a huge lift.

- I think they should consider giving Kuhl a DL break. He hasn't been good since taking a line-drive off his right knee and I don't believe he ever took time off from pitching. They could bring Brault up for a start or two and roll with Williams as the #4.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

Glasnow was good enough in 7 of his last 8 starts. He's a guy that will give you good enough #5 performances on most nights that will occasionally have an atrocious outing. He's not going to improve by being sent down.

His era was just under 7 before tonight's game.

Like hell he couldn't improve in the minors. He can't even throw his fastball at full velocity consistently. He has no idea what he is doing. The fact that anybody is arguing this point is beyond me.

 

[DanielPlainview]

- Kuhl has struggled in last four starts, posting a 7.46 ERA, 5.24 FIP, 1.657 WHIP while averaging <5 IP.

- Williams has been good since his dreadful first outing: 4.14 ERA, 3.53 FIP, 1.184 WHIP, ~5 IP per game.

- Glasnow is improved (tonight's struggles notwithstanding) but still pitching like a #5. The problem is we have 3 back-end guys in the rotation right now. Getting Taillon back will be a huge lift.

- I think they should consider giving Kuhl a DL break. He hasn't been good since taking a line-drive off his right knee and I don't believe he ever took time off from pitching. They could bring Brault up for a start or two and roll with Williams as the #4.

edit.

 

[DanielPlainview]

His era was just under 7 before tonight's game.

Like hell he couldn't improve in the minors. He can't even throw his fastball at full velocity consistently. He has no idea what he is doing. The fact that anybody is arguing this point is beyond me.

Glasnow going back to the minors will he will not be challenged would be more disastrous to his development than having him struggle every 3rd outing.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

Glasnow going back to the minors will he will not be challenged would be more disastrous to his development than having him struggle every 3rd outing.

His era in the 7 starts before tonight where he was supposedly vastly improved he had a 5.85 era.

He can't improve in the minors? Again, he can't even throw his fastball at top velocity. It's more common for his fastball to be 92 than it is for it to be 98. He's totally clueless and getting shelled isn't gonna help. He is out of his depth.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Batters in AAA aren't good enough for Glasnow to work on his problems. There's such a huge difference between AAA and the MLB today, just sending Glasnow down won't solve anything. He can still get by and do very well in AAA with his issues, those issues bite him in the ass in the majors. Him getting shelled in the MLB will do more to fix his issues than him pitching around those issues in AAA because of the massive talent gap.

 

[DanielPlainview]

His era in the 7 starts before tonight where he was supposedly vastly improved he had a 5.85 era.

He can't improve in the minors? Again, he can't even throw his fastball at top velocity. It's more common for his fastball to be 92 than it is for it to be 98. He's totally clueless and getting shelled isn't gonna help. He is out of his depth.

If you discount Glasnow's worst two outings (his first outing and one 3 starts ago), his numbers are: 4.59 ERA, 4.26 FIP, 1.508 WHIP. What you're seeing is a young, highly talented pitcher struggle with consistency in MLB. He's not going to get better pitching to AAA hitters.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

If you discount Glasnow's worst two outings (his first outing and one 3 starts ago), his numbers are: 4.59 ERA, 4.26 FIP, 1.508 WHIP. What you're seeing is a young, highly talented pitcher struggle with consistency in MLB. He's not going to get better pitching to AAA hitters.

Sorry, this is the major leagues. You don't get mulligans for bad starts.

People who have nothing to learn in AAA don't flirt with a 7 era almost 3 months into the season. It's a total fantasy. If he was ready he would be making steps and he is not. His velocity is all over the place and he hasn't turned the changeup into a plus pitch (probably because it is like 3 mph slower than his inexplicably weak fastballs).

People compare him to Randy Johnson. What a laugh. Like Randy Johnson at any point in his career was throwing Jeff Locke fastballs.

He has a very nice curve that he doesn't really use to get ahead in the count. His only good pitch is a strikeout pitch but he doesn't even strike anybody out. Aside from that his stuff is batting practice trash, frankly.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I mean, if you're bringing on the Randy Johnson comparison, Johnson had a 6.67 ERA through 7 games with the Expos in 1989 (his first full season). He did manage a 2.42 ERA in 4 starts the year before, but he didn't have exactly a great start in 1989. He got traded to the Mariners at that point.

 

[DanielPlainview]

Sorry, this is the major leagues. You don't get mulligans for bad starts.

People who have nothing to learn in AAA don't flirt with a 7 era almost 3 months into the season. It's a total fantasy. If he was ready he would be making steps and he is not. His velocity is all over the place and he hasn't turned the changeup into a plus pitch (probably because it is like 3 mph slower than his inexplicably weak fastballs).

People compare him to Randy Johnson. What a laugh. Like Randy Johnson at any point in his career was throwing Jeff Locke fastballs.

He has a very nice curve that he doesn't really use to get ahead in the count. His only good pitch is a strikeout pitch but he doesn't even strike anybody out. Aside from that his stuff is batting practice trash, frankly.

No one is talking about mulligans. If you can't understand the point, you're not fit to be discussing this.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

I mean, if you're bringing on the Randy Johnson comparison, Johnson had a 6.67 ERA through 7 games with the Expos in 1989 (his first full season). He did manage a 2.42 ERA in 4 starts the year before, but he didn't have exactly a great start in 1989. He got traded to the Mariners at that point.

Yeah, but Randy Johnson was having trouble because he couldn't find the strike zone. While Glasnow is not exactly efficient himself, the much larger problem is that he is not fooling anybody. His stuff is no good at this point. I'm not saying it's hopeless, but his stuff is not major league quality as of now.

No one is talking about mulligans. If you can't understand the point, you're not fit to be discussing this.

I understand the point perfectly fine. It is just not a very good point. Literally any pitcher looks much better if you simply remove their bad outings. It's meaningless and even so, his era is still in the mid 4's at that. Not exactly anything to write home about when you are basically grading on a curve.

So your point is that he is mediocore except for once every 3 or 4 starts when he gets totally smashed.

If major league batters were good for his development he would be making big steps yet he's not really taken any huge steps since the first time he pitched in the majors. He's barely making little steps.

 

[DanielPlainview]

It's not meaningless when you're talking about a player in development. So no, you didn't understand or refuse to understand.

Again, Glasnow is in development. He as nothing to learn in AAA, despite what you may believe. His issue is pitching to major leaguers. He's not going to get better at that in AAA.

So far the pattern is pretty clear: he's improving for two games then having a bit of a set back. Tonight's "set back game" was the least bad so far. The kid is improving. Quit being so impatient.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

It's not meaningless when you're talking about a player in development. So no, you didn't understand or refuse to understand.

Again, Glasnow is in development. He as nothing to learn in AAA, despite what you may believe. His issue is pitching to major leaguers. He's not going to get better at that in AAA.

So far the pattern is pretty clear: he's improving for two games then having a bit of a set back. Tonight's "set back game" was the least bad so far. The kid is improving. Quit being so impatient.

What steps are he taking? Most starts he fails to reach 5 innings and he is getting shelled twice a month. He can't and he doesn't get major league hitters out with any sort of consistency. His strikeout rate isn't increasing much and he's not getting better results.

I'm perfectly patient. The season is 2 months old and Glasnow is proving that his terrible performances are not an anomaly or a fluke. That is what he is and that is not ready to face players at the highest level. Have you considered that facing hitters that are too good for you is no good for your development either?

He has control issues, mechanics issues, and velocity issues. He can work on these things in the minors where he's not costing the Bucs every 5th game. But please, keep thrilling me by repeating the positive vibes Hurdle and Searage have been spouting because you can't go out in the media and say that the kid was brought up too early.

 

[DanielPlainview]

He is improving. I can tell you are just going to keep spouting these inanities because the evidence that disprove you is right in front of your face and yet you continue.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

It's not meaningless when you're talking about a player in development. So no, you didn't understand or refuse to understand.

Again, Glasnow is in development. He as nothing to learn in AAA, despite what you may believe. His issue is pitching to major leaguers. He's not going to get better at that in AAA.

So far the pattern is pretty clear: he's improving for two games then having a bit of a set back. Tonight's "set back game" was the least bad so far. The kid is improving. Quit being so impatient.

Yep, I don't get the knee jerk reactions so many are having over Glasnow. Fairly constant struggles with some flameouts are where the expectations should have been, and it is absolutely, 100% correct that he needs to pitch to major leaguers in order to figure out if he can be a starter at this level. There's still a chance that he can't, and that he will need to go to the bullpen, but I think people need to accept that it's going to continue to be a struggle for Glasnow. If you are ready to give up on him so that Trevor Williams can stay in the rotation, or Hutchison or Brault can come up, I'm not sure what to tell you. He's still an extremely young, developing pitcher who needs to take his reps against MLB hitters. The Pirates are a bad baseball team who are in the cellar of their division. They can afford to pitch Glasnow every five games. If he's still relatively mediocre with only occasional flashes of brilliance, and semi-occasional dumpster fire 3 inning starts in August, then yes, he's not progressing. But that's oversimplifying his season by a lot; even just a glance at his April vs. May starts show several encouraging signs: average IP up to 5 vs. a little over 3, only one start with abysmal walk totals, mixing in offspeed stuff, not shying away from the zone, etc.

Even just going by some basic numbers and observations, Glasnow has made some solid progress. He's cutting down on the insane BBs, and inching closer to using his fastball as a pitch that can set him up, instead of as a total loose canon. It's completely meaningless to whine about his fastball sitting at 93 mph without also taking into account that when he moves to the four-seamer, he often has very little control over where it's going, and hence it is useless as a regular pitch since he can't get ahead in the count with it. Until his 98+ mph stuff can be located, he's better off with the two-seamer, which when it's on is a great pitch anyways. Sure, he could try and locate his four-seamer more in AAA, but most of those hitters are not good enough to make him pay for the difference between the periphery of the zone and the heart of the plate.

We still saw some fastball struggles last night, but I'd say overall, that was the biggest positive takeaway from this game. He was able to throw first pitch strikes, and generate a lot of whiffs on his curveball.

The downsides are still obvious. Last night in particular, he ran into the same problem of being too hittable, and also an inability to work through trouble spots without giving up too many runs. Cutch didn't help him out by missing that catch, but it was a difficult play, and the Mets started hitting him pretty hard in any case.

I also didn't notice a lot of changeups from him last night, which is another hiccup, but I think it's time to accept that Glasnow is going to require a drawn out process with a lot of bumps along the way. Actually arguing about whether or not he is getting better requires a lot more than abstract pronouncements about his pitch speed which are based on nothing more than mere polemics. Watching last night's game saw the resurgence of a familiar pattern, because he was pretty dominant early on, and then came apart a little bit when he had some bad luck behind him, leading to a big inning. It was the right call to just get him through 5 innings and pull the plug.

My sense is that the Pirates are currently trying to reverse engineer the process that they put basically all of their pitchers through: a healthy diet of fastballs and pitching to contact in order to eliminate walks. Glasnow's control is still very poor at times, but it has definitely been reigned in: no walks last night, and if I'm not mistaken, one of the walks in the last start was intentional. He seems to be buying into the coaching more, which in itself is an encouraging sign, as Gallatin has noted his stubbornness before. The complete results are not there, and I think part of it is that he has absolutely no clue where the four-seam fastball is going, and that the changeup is not yet an effective pitch. Still, whether or not it's a compliment, it's fair to say that he is averaging something more mediocre (which in itself is about the best you expect from your #5 pitcher anyways), and is definitely showing more flashes of the pitcher he's capable of becoming. It's certainly a bit frustrating that he hasn't been able to put everything together for one exclamation point start, even if he's has one or two quite good ones, but I'd chalk that up more to following a gameplan than anything else--an earlier tendency of his would have been to start selling out even more for Ks with the start he had, but through three innings, he was doing a fine job of keeping the pitch count reasonable and getting weak contact.

I'm still on board with the experiment, simply because I have no hope at all for the MLB team, and no idea how dominating in AAA is going to do anything for him. Those hitters cannot touch him, and generally speaking, encourage the type of habits that Searage has been trying to break him out of at this level. Whether or not he can cut down on the hits at this level remains to be seen, but I'll take the clear and distinct, quantifiable elements of progress and continue being patient. There are no guarantees with him -- it's obviously within the realm of possibility that this inconsistency is the best we'll see from him, meaning he will need to reinvent himself again, or transition to a bullpen pitcher later in the season, etc. I think there are a few guarantees: he won't turn into a consistent, productive contributor overnight, and any signs of such progress by repeating the AAA level are going to require retracing his steps whenever he makes it back. The things to start improving for the immediate future are pretty clear: he needs to alter his approach for the second and third times through lineups, and to be able to do that, he needs enough in his arsenal to keep the batters honest. This means we need more consistency from the changeup, and the ability to harnass the high heat as a weapon. Those things are still works in progress like a lot else with him, but I feel a lot better about seeing him rise to those challenges over the month of June than seeing him need to get a 5 inning baseline, or avoid 4+ BBs before anything else can happen.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

Pretty good game story from Nesbitt here: http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/...take-series-with-7-2-win/stories/201705280203

He indicates more changeups than I seem to be remembering, but I also wasn't specifically looking for them. The next start will be an interesting one for Glasnow, since it's against the Mets again, and he likely will not be able to have an easy time through the lineup if he repeats the same gameplan. I think the major takeaway is Searage's line about executing his pitches rather than trying to enhance. This is especially true when he runs into a little bit of trouble, because it's the difference between a 0 or 1 run inning, depending on some luck, and a 3+ run inning.

Either way, I'll take the slow progression and hope he can build on the small progress he's made over his next set of starts. Would like to see the hits against come down, but the biggest improvement can be made in continuing to keep the walks low, and lowering them further, and having 6 IP as a benchmark, moreso than the plateau of 5 IP that he's reached. Let's see a string of 4 starts where he only has 4-5 total walks. Even if his line is something mediocre like 4 ER in 6 IP, I'll take that as a baseline. I'm not worried about him missing bats in the longrun.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

Leaning in for the classic triple post, courtesy of my time zone.

Randall Delgado pitching today for the Diamondbacks. Let's hope he is brutally, brutally injured in this game, leading to the immediate end of his career and ability to ever profit again from the game of baseball. #Neverforget

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

Nobody considers that maybe I am right on this matter. Stop talking about Randy Johnson and let's talk about Max Scherzer. The Tigers sent him down in his first year on the team despite the fact that he pitched the entire previous year for the Diamondbacks. People whined that he was "too good for AAA". Scherzer fixed his mechanics in 2 starts in AAA and the rest is history.

I'm still failing to see what improvement you guys are referring to. He's had 2 good starts in 2 months and the rest have ranged from bad to horrendous. He either walks a bunch of guys or grooves the ball down the plate in an attampt to prevent walking guys.

And yes, the options to replace him are substandard to say the least. I'm just not so sure that having him start all year to the tune of 20+ losses and a 6+ era is the best thing for his confidence.

I truly have no idea what you guys are watching. All I see out there is a young pitcher who is totally incapable of pitching at this level. His era is testament to that. Please explain to me how 25 year old Max Scherzer benefitted from spending some time at AAA but 24 year old Tyler Glasnow is "too good for AAA".

 

[Cherpak]

If you can't locate your 4 seam fastball you have no business in the majors. The most basic pitch in the arsenal. This is on the Pirates and their development/scouting.

 

[Gallatin]

Yep, I don't get the knee jerk reactions so many are having over Glasnow. Fairly constant struggles with some flameouts are where the expectations should have been, and it is absolutely, 100% correct that he needs to pitch to major leaguers in order to figure out if he can be a starter at this level. There's still a chance that he can't, and that he will need to go to the bullpen, but I think people need to accept that it's going to continue to be a struggle for Glasnow. If you are ready to give up on him so that Trevor Williams can stay in the rotation, or Hutchison or Brault can come up, I'm not sure what to tell you. He's still an extremely young, developing pitcher who needs to take his reps against MLB hitters. The Pirates are a bad baseball team who are in the cellar of their division. They can afford to pitch Glasnow every five games. If he's still relatively mediocre with only occasional flashes of brilliance, and semi-occasional dumpster fire 3 inning starts in August, then yes, he's not progressing. But that's oversimplifying his season by a lot; even just a glance at his April vs. May starts show several encouraging signs: average IP up to 5 vs. a little over 3, only one start with abysmal walk totals, mixing in offspeed stuff, not shying away from the zone, etc.

Even just going by some basic numbers and observations, Glasnow has made some solid progress. He's cutting down on the insane BBs, and inching closer to using his fastball as a pitch that can set him up, instead of as a total loose canon. It's completely meaningless to whine about his fastball sitting at 93 mph without also taking into account that when he moves to the four-seamer, he often has very little control over where it's going, and hence it is useless as a regular pitch since he can't get ahead in the count with it. Until his 98+ mph stuff can be located, he's better off with the two-seamer, which when it's on is a great pitch anyways. Sure, he could try and locate his four-seamer more in AAA, but most of those hitters are not good enough to make him pay for the difference between the periphery of the zone and the heart of the plate.

We still saw some fastball struggles last night, but I'd say overall, that was the biggest positive takeaway from this game. He was able to throw first pitch strikes, and generate a lot of whiffs on his curveball.

The downsides are still obvious. Last night in particular, he ran into the same problem of being too hittable, and also an inability to work through trouble spots without giving up too many runs. Cutch didn't help him out by missing that catch, but it was a difficult play, and the Mets started hitting him pretty hard in any case.

I also didn't notice a lot of changeups from him last night, which is another hiccup, but I think it's time to accept that Glasnow is going to require a drawn out process with a lot of bumps along the way. Actually arguing about whether or not he is getting better requires a lot more than abstract pronouncements about his pitch speed which are based on nothing more than mere polemics. Watching last night's game saw the resurgence of a familiar pattern, because he was pretty dominant early on, and then came apart a little bit when he had some bad luck behind him, leading to a big inning. It was the right call to just get him through 5 innings and pull the plug.

My sense is that the Pirates are currently trying to reverse engineer the process that they put basically all of their pitchers through: a healthy diet of fastballs and pitching to contact in order to eliminate walks. Glasnow's control is still very poor at times, but it has definitely been reigned in: no walks last night, and if I'm not mistaken, one of the walks in the last start was intentional. He seems to be buying into the coaching more, which in itself is an encouraging sign, as Gallatin has noted his stubbornness before. The complete results are not there, and I think part of it is that he has absolutely no clue where the four-seam fastball is going, and that the changeup is not yet an effective pitch. Still, whether or not it's a compliment, it's fair to say that he is averaging something more mediocre (which in itself is about the best you expect from your #5 pitcher anyways), and is definitely showing more flashes of the pitcher he's capable of becoming. It's certainly a bit frustrating that he hasn't been able to put everything together for one exclamation point start, even if he's has one or two quite good ones, but I'd chalk that up more to following a gameplan than anything else--an earlier tendency of his would have been to start selling out even more for Ks with the start he had, but through three innings, he was doing a fine job of keeping the pitch count reasonable and getting weak contact.

I'm still on board with the experiment, simply because I have no hope at all for the MLB team, and no idea how dominating in AAA is going to do anything for him. Those hitters cannot touch him, and generally speaking, encourage the type of habits that Searage has been trying to break him out of at this level. Whether or not he can cut down on the hits at this level remains to be seen, but I'll take the clear and distinct, quantifiable elements of progress and continue being patient. There are no guarantees with him -- it's obviously within the realm of possibility that this inconsistency is the best we'll see from him, meaning he will need to reinvent himself again, or transition to a bullpen pitcher later in the season, etc. I think there are a few guarantees: he won't turn into a consistent, productive contributor overnight, and any signs of such progress by repeating the AAA level are going to require retracing his steps whenever he makes it back. The things to start improving for the immediate future are pretty clear: he needs to alter his approach for the second and third times through lineups, and to be able to do that, he needs enough in his arsenal to keep the batters honest. This means we need more consistency from the changeup, and the ability to harnass the high heat as a weapon. Those things are still works in progress like a lot else with him, but I feel a lot better about seeing him rise to those challenges over the month of June than seeing him need to get a 5 inning baseline, or avoid 4+ BBs before anything else can happen.

Nice novel DJ, the end came too fast...

But seriously, you don't pull Glasnow now when he is clearly being reengineered by the Great One. Especially when nobody is knocking down the door at Indie.

If we hit July though and Holmes or Brault is crushing, and the playoffs are still in reach... Well, he better have made some real progress, or I would send him down.

And require he throw nothing but 4-seamers & change​s. Take away the Curve & 2 seamer. He is nearing the point where desperate measures are called for.

And I don't really see a late inning reliever in this guy if he can't fix what he needs to fix to be a starter. A bullpen move would be pointless IMO.

 

[Gallatin]

If you can't locate your 4 seam fastball you have no business in the majors. The most basic pitch in the arsenal. This is on the Pirates and their development/scouting.

This is what a ridiculously uninformed post looks like. See it. Live it. Learn it. And never do it yourself folks.

And I am a slight fan of yours across several sports boards Cherp. But get the heck out a here with that.