OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: Draft Day!

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Gallatin

A Banksy of Goonism
Mar 4, 2010
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Some slightly surprising news that might unite us.

It's an aggressive start, and I wonder if part of the plan is to try and keep him at the same level as Priester. It'd be pretty aggressive if Davis started 2022 in Altoona, but I guess there's a solid month of games to see how he handles this jump.


I feel united. In fact I feel quite in-alignment with the general board perspective. Just a little more patient I think, than most. I don't see much good outa the Pirates trying to force a competitive season when all the best prospects are 1-3yrs out.

But you guys go ahead and debate it and analyze it to death. Ultimately it's what I love about this thread. I mostly read you guys.
 

ChaosAgent

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May 8, 2018
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I feel united. In fact I feel quite in-alignment with the general board perspective. Just a little more patient I think, than most. I don't see much good outa the Pirates trying to force a competitive season when all the best prospects are 1-3yrs out.

But you guys go ahead and debate it and analyze it to death. Ultimately it's what I love about this thread. I mostly read you guys.

The best prospects are not 1-3 years out. Some of them are. Most of them are either here already or in Altoona.

It is also a litmus test for Nutting's willingness to spend. And Cherington's ability to find talent at the ML level. Which has not been impressive at all so far.
 

DJ Spinoza

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Aug 7, 2003
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I doubt Priester has anything to do with it. They just think he's a great college hitter and want to advance him, which is fantastic. That plus maybe they want Endy - an intriguing prospect in his own right - to keep getting the lion's share of time in Bradenton

The catching depth probably has a good bit to do with it, but I do think high A is a decently aggressive assignment given that he has defense to work on too. It's not extremely aggressive or anything, but I was expecting him to just go to Bradenton and finish out the year. Now there's a small chance he could start 2022 in AA, which would be very aggressive.
 

ChaosAgent

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May 8, 2018
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Man, if there's something Huntington needed to be fired for it was 4 consecutive firsts of Newman, Tucker, Craig and then the short-lived tenure of Baz. What epic fails.

When you look at Keller's minor league numbers too, it isn't like crazy impressive either. It's not video game shiz like Glasnow was. People who saw Cole, Taillon, Glasnow and then Keller in the minors almost always put Cole/Glasnow at the top and then Taillon a half step over Keller as well.

We can endlessly discuss the Archer trade in hindsight but now you can't help but wonder if we could have done Meadows and Keller vs. Glasnow and Baz. Keller had the highest value of the 3 pitchers at the time. Maybe throw in either Newman or Tucker as well.
 

DJ Spinoza

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Davis is DHing for Greensboro tonight and it's on MiLB tv for those who have it. Batting 5th, game is delayed but getting underway pretty soon.
 

DJ Spinoza

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Aug 7, 2003
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He looks good at the plate. I'm curious what kind of adjustments he'll ned to make as he keeps improving.

On the defensive side of things, I think the name of the game is hard work more than anything else, which is one of the reasons I came around on the idea of drafting him after being really opposed to it when it first seemed like a posibility. What you have to hope is that the combinationf of that work plus usual wear and tear doesn't slow him down too much or affect the bat. It just seems like blocking and receiving come with time, as does game-calling really.

I also think that the universal DH gives you more flexibility and ultimately is a great thing for having a strong offensive catcher. The position is a grind, so being able to stay fresh as a DH and be a perfectly strong bat in that position is really a win-win.
 
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ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
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There is no reason to spend money in FA this winter. None.

Any SP you manage to sign, in this day and age for 8-10M per year, as suggested, is not going to get you someone who profiles much better than what we have coming in 2022 in Yajure or Contreras for exmaple.

Any player for that money per year, is worth roughly 1-1.5 WAR as a SP. Signing a SP for 2-3 years at that rate is likely going to take you from 65 wins in 2022, to 67, maybe 68 if he goes off. It's simply not worth it, financially but also mathematically, which really go hand in hand.

There are so many incoming players, in house, the idea of replicating NH's failed strategy (half measures) grinds my gears.

Yajure, barring a setback the last 6 weeks or an awful spring next year, will be on the opening day roster. He's a potential (long odds) 1-2 if his stuff takes another step froward, and more likely someone you can profile as a mid rotation workhorse who can command the ball better than average consistently. He costs 6 figures and doesn't eat up a needless 40 man spot to a player, who again, is probably not going to sign long enough to really eat into the winning window.

Contreras would have had a shot to start in the MLB in 2022 but the elbow scare (he's close to return now) has pushed that back to June/July next year, provided he stays healthy of course and continues to impress. But again, that's a very talented arm that could help sometime in 2022.

Bryse Wilson has shown well in his first 2 starts. Nothing overly special in terms of bat missing stuff, but he seems to have a good feel for his pitches. Attacks hitters with accuracy, albeit in a small sample size. Kind of feel he's what we hoped Brubaker might be. Either way, he's looked good in 2 starts and given his age/profile, would wager he's a good bet to get a lot of work next season. Certainly an upgrade over enduring another 3+ months of Keller or Crowe IMO.

Theoretically, without spending a dime on a FA, you can roll this by July:

Contreras
Yajure
Wilson
Brault (he's a rebound/potential trade chip IMO)
Pick 1 of Brukaber, Crowe, Kranick, etc

IF the top 2 guys hit, that's almost surely a winning team/wild card type rotation, possibly more. Obviously so much depends on development and the odds of Roansy and Bryse both peaking at or near max output is very low.

Still, a FA SP, in this day and age is going to be a miles long shot in the dark at 8-10M per and anything past 1 year ad you run a real risk of being stuck with money you wish you hadn't spent.

And by the summer of 2023 you theoretically could have a rotation of consistence of current Bucs prospects which cost very little against the books for half a decade.

Contreras
Priester
Yajure
Cruz
Kranick/Mlod/Burrows/Thomas/Bolton/Jones/Garcia/etc (with Solometo and Chandler as 2024 targets)

There is no person who would convince me that our system, right now, isn't top 3 in baseball, and really can be argued as the top one if you graduate Franco/Vidal from Tampa as they're both in the bigs. Pittsburgh's depth is insanely good and you've had numerous breakouts from guys who weren't even top 30 prospects coming into the year (Fraizer and Castro being the 2 most prominent names).

I haven't even touched on the position players that litter our system:

Davis
Cruz
Gonzo
Fraizer
Peguero
Marcano
Swaggerty (hope the shoulder heals)
Head
Martin
Mitchell
Smith-Njigba
Castillo
Suwinski
Bins
Triolo
Endy
etc, etc, etc (didn't even include our 2021 draft class beyond Davis)

Nor did I touch on the top 4 pick we're going to have in the 2022 draft, which is very likely going to blow the 2021 draft out of the water in terms of top end talent. I predict we pick 2nd when it's all said and done. We're a game out of picking 3rd, 2 games from the 2 hole, and with Zona winning tonight 5.5 back of the worst record. Don't think we'll quite catch Arizona but 2nd is very possible. No chance we draft lower than 4th at this point as we're a full 7 games clear of the 5th place team.

I think Hayes will rebound next year. Not to some 1.000 OPS guy but he'll settle into an 800+ OPS role and that's plenty good next to Reynolds who's a legit 30/30, higher end defensive CF.

Stay the course Ben.

2023 should be the target year for expecting some winning to begin. That's the first year I'd advocate spending money on the FA market/expanding the payroll by an actual noticeable amount.

Adding a middling FA or 2 this winter almost surely moves the needle from bottom 5 team to bottom 10 team, nothing more/less. They're not going to put you over the top (and I mean from basement dweller to wild card potential) and will more likely wind up taking playing time from young players who I've outlined above, who will cost you much less than 4, 6, 8 million per year and probably give you similar results.
 

ChaosAgent

Registered User
May 8, 2018
17,884
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There is no reason to spend money in FA this winter. None.

Any SP you manage to sign, in this day and age for 8-10M per year, as suggested, is not going to get you someone who profiles much better than what we have coming in 2022 in Yajure or Contreras for exmaple.

Any player for that money per year, is worth roughly 1-1.5 WAR as a SP. Signing a SP for 2-3 years at that rate is likely going to take you from 65 wins in 2022, to 67, maybe 68 if he goes off. It's simply not worth it, financially but also mathematically, which really go hand in hand.

There are so many incoming players, in house, the idea of replicating NH's failed strategy (half measures) grinds my gears.

Yajure, barring a setback the last 6 weeks or an awful spring next year, will be on the opening day roster. He's a potential (long odds) 1-2 if his stuff takes another step froward, and more likely someone you can profile as a mid rotation workhorse who can command the ball better than average consistently. He costs 6 figures and doesn't eat up a needless 40 man spot to a player, who again, is probably not going to sign long enough to really eat into the winning window.

Contreras would have had a shot to start in the MLB in 2022 but the elbow scare (he's close to return now) has pushed that back to June/July next year, provided he stays healthy of course and continues to impress. But again, that's a very talented arm that could help sometime in 2022.

Bryse Wilson has shown well in his first 2 starts. Nothing overly special in terms of bat missing stuff, but he seems to have a good feel for his pitches. Attacks hitters with accuracy, albeit in a small sample size. Kind of feel he's what we hoped Brubaker might be. Either way, he's looked good in 2 starts and given his age/profile, would wager he's a good bet to get a lot of work next season. Certainly an upgrade over enduring another 3+ months of Keller or Crowe IMO.

Theoretically, without spending a dime on a FA, you can roll this by July:

Contreras
Yajure
Wilson
Brault (he's a rebound/potential trade chip IMO)
Pick 1 of Brukaber, Crowe, Kranick, etc

IF the top 2 guys hit, that's almost surely a winning team/wild card type rotation, possibly more. Obviously so much depends on development and the odds of Roansy and Bryse both peaking at or near max output is very low.

Still, a FA SP, in this day and age is going to be a miles long shot in the dark at 8-10M per and anything past 1 year ad you run a real risk of being stuck with money you wish you hadn't spent.

And by the summer of 2023 you theoretically could have a rotation of consistence of current Bucs prospects which cost very little against the books for half a decade.

Contreras
Priester
Yajure
Cruz
Kranick/Mlod/Burrows/Thomas/Bolton/Jones/Garcia/etc (with Solometo and Chandler as 2024 targets)

There is no person who would convince me that our system, right now, isn't top 3 in baseball, and really can be argued as the top one if you graduate Franco/Vidal from Tampa as they're both in the bigs. Pittsburgh's depth is insanely good and you've had numerous breakouts from guys who weren't even top 30 prospects coming into the year (Fraizer and Castro being the 2 most prominent names).

I haven't even touched on the position players that litter our system:

Davis
Cruz
Gonzo
Fraizer
Peguero
Marcano
Swaggerty (hope the shoulder heals)
Head
Martin
Mitchell
Smith-Njigba
Castillo
Suwinski
Bins
Triolo
Endy
etc, etc, etc (didn't even include our 2021 draft class beyond Davis)

Nor did I touch on the top 4 pick we're going to have in the 2022 draft, which is very likely going to blow the 2021 draft out of the water in terms of top end talent. I predict we pick 2nd when it's all said and done. We're a game out of picking 3rd, 2 games from the 2 hole, and with Zona winning tonight 5.5 back of the worst record. Don't think we'll quite catch Arizona but 2nd is very possible. No chance we draft lower than 4th at this point as we're a full 7 games clear of the 5th place team.

I think Hayes will rebound next year. Not to some 1.000 OPS guy but he'll settle into an 800+ OPS role and that's plenty good next to Reynolds who's a legit 30/30, higher end defensive CF.

Stay the course Ben.

2023 should be the target year for expecting some winning to begin. That's the first year I'd advocate spending money on the FA market/expanding the payroll by an actual noticeable amount.

Adding a middling FA or 2 this winter almost surely moves the needle from bottom 5 team to bottom 10 team, nothing more/less. They're not going to put you over the top (and I mean from basement dweller to wild card potential) and will more likely wind up taking playing time from young players who I've outlined above, who will cost you much less than 4, 6, 8 million per year and probably give you similar results.

This is a good post. But you've laid out a rotation in which no one gets injured which doesn't happen and the bullpen also blows. You should be able to make an Anderson-type signing, an Anderson+ type signing, and 2 bullpen signings pretty comfortably.

As terrible as the offense has been as of late, that is where we have a cavalcade of upper minors prospects and I'd go into next year looking to be super cheap there because there are so many guys that will be needing MLB playing time. Including all the 2Bs and SSs that now litter Indy & Altoona (Chavis, Marcano, Park, Bae, Cruz) that we'll want to get time at the corner OF spots to see how their bats play at the MLB level. I'm assuming/hoping/praying the FO rids itself of Newman & Tucker this offseason.

Our MLB-ready pitching is neither deep enough nor good enough to warrant no additions this year, just as when last year we added Anderson, Cahill and Shreve.
 

Gallatin

A Banksy of Goonism
Mar 4, 2010
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There is no reason to spend money in FA this winter. None.

Any SP you manage to sign, in this day and age for 8-10M per year, as suggested, is not going to get you someone who profiles much better than what we have coming in 2022 in Yajure or Contreras for exmaple.

Any player for that money per year, is worth roughly 1-1.5 WAR as a SP. Signing a SP for 2-3 years at that rate is likely going to take you from 65 wins in 2022, to 67, maybe 68 if he goes off. It's simply not worth it, financially but also mathematically, which really go hand in hand.

There are so many incoming players, in house, the idea of replicating NH's failed strategy (half measures) grinds my gears.

Yajure, barring a setback the last 6 weeks or an awful spring next year, will be on the opening day roster. He's a potential (long odds) 1-2 if his stuff takes another step froward, and more likely someone you can profile as a mid rotation workhorse who can command the ball better than average consistently. He costs 6 figures and doesn't eat up a needless 40 man spot to a player, who again, is probably not going to sign long enough to really eat into the winning window.

Contreras would have had a shot to start in the MLB in 2022 but the elbow scare (he's close to return now) has pushed that back to June/July next year, provided he stays healthy of course and continues to impress. But again, that's a very talented arm that could help sometime in 2022.

Bryse Wilson has shown well in his first 2 starts. Nothing overly special in terms of bat missing stuff, but he seems to have a good feel for his pitches. Attacks hitters with accuracy, albeit in a small sample size. Kind of feel he's what we hoped Brubaker might be. Either way, he's looked good in 2 starts and given his age/profile, would wager he's a good bet to get a lot of work next season. Certainly an upgrade over enduring another 3+ months of Keller or Crowe IMO.

Theoretically, without spending a dime on a FA, you can roll this by July:

Contreras
Yajure
Wilson
Brault (he's a rebound/potential trade chip IMO)
Pick 1 of Brukaber, Crowe, Kranick, etc

IF the top 2 guys hit, that's almost surely a winning team/wild card type rotation, possibly more. Obviously so much depends on development and the odds of Roansy and Bryse both peaking at or near max output is very low.

Still, a FA SP, in this day and age is going to be a miles long shot in the dark at 8-10M per and anything past 1 year ad you run a real risk of being stuck with money you wish you hadn't spent.

And by the summer of 2023 you theoretically could have a rotation of consistence of current Bucs prospects which cost very little against the books for half a decade.

Contreras
Priester
Yajure
Cruz
Kranick/Mlod/Burrows/Thomas/Bolton/Jones/Garcia/etc (with Solometo and Chandler as 2024 targets)

There is no person who would convince me that our system, right now, isn't top 3 in baseball, and really can be argued as the top one if you graduate Franco/Vidal from Tampa as they're both in the bigs. Pittsburgh's depth is insanely good and you've had numerous breakouts from guys who weren't even top 30 prospects coming into the year (Fraizer and Castro being the 2 most prominent names).

I haven't even touched on the position players that litter our system:

Davis
Cruz
Gonzo
Fraizer
Peguero
Marcano
Swaggerty (hope the shoulder heals)
Head
Martin
Mitchell
Smith-Njigba
Castillo
Suwinski
Bins
Triolo
Endy
etc, etc, etc (didn't even include our 2021 draft class beyond Davis)

Nor did I touch on the top 4 pick we're going to have in the 2022 draft, which is very likely going to blow the 2021 draft out of the water in terms of top end talent. I predict we pick 2nd when it's all said and done. We're a game out of picking 3rd, 2 games from the 2 hole, and with Zona winning tonight 5.5 back of the worst record. Don't think we'll quite catch Arizona but 2nd is very possible. No chance we draft lower than 4th at this point as we're a full 7 games clear of the 5th place team.

I think Hayes will rebound next year. Not to some 1.000 OPS guy but he'll settle into an 800+ OPS role and that's plenty good next to Reynolds who's a legit 30/30, higher end defensive CF.

Stay the course Ben.

2023 should be the target year for expecting some winning to begin. That's the first year I'd advocate spending money on the FA market/expanding the payroll by an actual noticeable amount.

Adding a middling FA or 2 this winter almost surely moves the needle from bottom 5 team to bottom 10 team, nothing more/less. They're not going to put you over the top (and I mean from basement dweller to wild card potential) and will more likely wind up taking playing time from young players who I've outlined above, who will cost you much less than 4, 6, 8 million per year and probably give you similar results.

Great post, agree completely.

Interesting thing I find about the Org right now is the large collection of young projectable breakout pitching candidates on hand. There really are a bunch of guys like Fraizer and Castro were coming into this season on the pitching side in A-Ball and Rookie-Ball. One, or two, or four, of them are gonna pop next year IMO.

There's a ton of guys below the Contrares, Priester, Mlod, & Jones group with real upsides.
 
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Gallatin

A Banksy of Goonism
Mar 4, 2010
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This is a good post. But you've laid out a rotation in which no one gets injured which doesn't happen and the bullpen also blows. You should be able to make an Anderson-type signing, an Anderson+ type signing, and 2 bullpen signings pretty comfortably.

As terrible as the offense has been as of late, that is where we have a cavalcade of upper minors prospects and I'd go into next year looking to be super cheap there because there are so many guys that will be needing MLB playing time. Including all the 2Bs and SSs that now litter Indy & Altoona (Chavis, Marcano, Park, Bae, Cruz) that we'll want to get time at the corner OF spots to see how their bats play at the MLB level. I'm assuming/hoping/praying the FO rids itself of Newman & Tucker this offseason.

Our MLB-ready pitching is neither deep enough nor good enough to warrant no additions this year, just as when last year we added Anderson, Cahill and Shreve.

Yeah Doc I totally agree. The standard Bucs yearly low level free agent signings are completely appropriate for this club. I just don't think they're quite ready (or willing) to pour more in on top of that yet.
 
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ChaosAgent

Registered User
May 8, 2018
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Yeah Doc I totally agree. The standard Bucs yearly low level free agent signings are completely appropriate for this club. I just don't think they're quite ready (or willing) to pour more in on top of that yet.

I don't mind that. Unless we are buying prospects. I would sign no position players basically but pitching is fungible. Get as many as ya need, you can always flip em
 

MrBrightside

Registered User
May 5, 2010
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Franklin Park, PA
Yajure, barring a setback the last 6 weeks or an awful spring next year, will be on the opening day roster. He's a potential (long odds) 1-2 if his stuff takes another step froward, and more likely someone you can profile as a mid rotation workhorse who can command the ball better than average consistently. He costs 6 figures and doesn't eat up a needless 40 man spot to a player, who again, is probably not going to sign long enough to really eat into the winning window.

Contreras would have had a shot to start in the MLB in 2022 but the elbow scare (he's close to return now) has pushed that back to June/July next year, provided he stays healthy of course and continues to impress. But again, that's a very talented arm that could help sometime in 2022.

Bryse Wilson has shown well in his first 2 starts. Nothing overly special in terms of bat missing stuff, but he seems to have a good feel for his pitches. Attacks hitters with accuracy, albeit in a small sample size. Kind of feel he's what we hoped Brubaker might be. Either way, he's looked good in 2 starts and given his age/profile, would wager he's a good bet to get a lot of work next season. Certainly an upgrade over enduring another 3+ months of Keller or Crowe IMO.

Theoretically, without spending a dime on a FA, you can roll this by July:

Contreras
Yajure
Wilson
Brault (he's a rebound/potential trade chip IMO)
Pick 1 of Brukaber, Crowe, Kranick, etc

IF the top 2 guys hit, that's almost surely a winning team/wild card type rotation, possibly more. Obviously so much depends on development and the odds of Roansy and Bryse both peaking at or near max output is very low.

Two things:

1. No one is advocating to not "stay the course." Again, there are options between "add no one of consequence" and "sign Scherzer and Bauer." Adding a quality veteran arm or two in free agency does not take them "off course," and it's a strawman to suggest that adding some real major league pitching would deviate from the building within the system.

2. You again do what all the optimists do and just project that every prospect of note will make it, be healthy, and pitch well. The idea that all 3 of Contreras, Yajure, and Wilson will be competent, reliable major league pitchers this time next year is a lovely thought and also a completely unrealistic one. The top 3 guys in your projected rotation have started a total of 18 major league games, 16 of those by Wilson (and most of those not well). I absolutely hope that's how things go and I absolutely think they should get the opportunity to stick, but the odds are that at least 1 or 2 of them will get hurt or struggle or both. Brault is nothing more than a lottery ticket - 2022 would be the 5th straight year he'd fall into the "well he's got upside so maybe this is the year..." mode.

I'll add that all of this is just an academic discussion as we all know that they won't add significant pieces this winter even if the post-Polanco payroll is disgracefully low.
 
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DJ Spinoza

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Aug 7, 2003
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I think it might be a question of semantics or something. Signing a veteran pitcher for 8-10M is basically a lark in MLB -- teams that don't have an absolute joke of an ownership do it all the time, simply because that's the kind of money that a veteran pitcher who has flashed anything can command. Whether or not there will be one or more viable SPs to even consider in this vein is another question. Teams are willing to "risk" modest contracts in the event that they end up working out, since pitching is always so difficult to come by. A great example is the Taijuan Walker deal, which now looks phenomenal for the Mets.

I don't think we'll be in a position to try that kind of contract, but some spending should still be in order and I really don't see how it has to do with prospect playing time on any front. It is almost by definition impossible to have too much pitching, and young players will have injuries and even when they don't, innings caps.

Not sure I can say much more about it, but I don't really see the proposal of a few pitchers and an everyday position player as really that much in tension with any plan. I think it's the kind of short-term bleeding into long-term investment that should be expected, since BC has completed the easy part of a tear-down rebuild. Going into next year with more or less the intention to hit "repeat" on the 2021 MLB performance is a disaster.

I do think the current team has been hit in some unexpected ways that really crushed their chances to flirt with mediocrity, as we've seen on a number of occasions where the bottom just completely falls out: Hayes' wrist injury is effectively a lost season, Moran basically missed the whole year, Keller never put anything together, Yajure, Cruz, and Contreras all suffered setbacks that prevented a cup of coffee, etc. There's some potential such that if everything goes right, next year will be a step up, and I think at the end of the day you should be expected to make the moves that give your MLB team a better chance to win. A veteran pitcher who works out + an additional competent bat would go a long way towards giving more of a fighting shot for the young core that exists, and then in the event that several prospects start pushing for playing time, you have the easy option of trading the expiring contracts to add new young talent to the system and get 2-3 months experience for those new players. Regardless there is going to be plenty of space for prospects to make a push earlier in the season as well.

This far from the winter, the big question to me is more of "how many viable players fit this description and will get 1-year deals?" But if there are some, I fail to see how it ruins any plans, since basically the main logic of it is to build a consistently better MLB product while giving yourself more options to move for futures at the deadline instead of just sitting on your hands and being comfortable flirting with 100-losses again.

I think at the very least, we're going to do something along these lines with pitchers, as Doc mentioned with Anderson, Cahill, and Shreve. What I'm expecting is some more aggressiveness in going after those kinds of players, and I think there's at least some chance that can happen. The idea of getting a starting OF is way less likely, but given that the current OF is something like Reynolds, Gamel, and Alford or perhaps Park/Marcano meaning Newman starts a lot, I don't really see how that's a good thing. Conforto gives you a great candidate to have a Schwarber-like season and especially if the DH comes, would not stand in the way of any of the handful of prospects who could be in the mix for early season playing time.
 
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Gallatin

A Banksy of Goonism
Mar 4, 2010
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Wow that's right - it's time to negotiate. I'm expecting AT LEAST 1/3rd of the MLB season to be lost to the Lockout.

When does it start? Will free agency be impacted in November?
 

DJ Spinoza

Registered User
Aug 7, 2003
25,349
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That is another giant caveat to talking about anything for this offseason. I haven't seen anything other than vague speculation of a work stoppage. We'll see -- there is a lot more to potentially have grievances about this time, but it's also the case that MLB basically prints money for everybody involved.

There should be some kind of inventive put in place in order to force teams to promote players and not mess with service time when they are ready. The players' side always only has nominal interest in defending younger guys, but it's in the interest of all players to get that resolved, since effectively what is happening is that teams are stealing the prime years of players at bare minimum prices, and in almost every case manipulating service clocks. With the exception of major international phenoms who reach MLB very quickly, what ends up happening is that players don't hit UFA until they are close to 30 and teams refuse to give them a big payday.

Players should be hitting free agency faster and I also think teams should be forced to spend more. This will put me in the minority of the thread I think, but while it's true that the Dodgers can spend like bonkers in all facets of the game, there is also no real excuse for the barebones payrolls that we run and other teams run. A salary cap and floor won't do much other than further compress the wages of the players, IMO. There's already basically a cap with the luxury tax, and I'd like to see some kind of coercion to prevent taking/mailing it in at the MLB level. A team like the Brewers is a small market team who built up a strong drafting and development process and has managed to at least spend a reasonable payroll to continue to be a solid team.
 

ChaosAgent

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May 8, 2018
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That is another giant caveat to talking about anything for this offseason. I haven't seen anything other than vague speculation of a work stoppage. We'll see -- there is a lot more to potentially have grievances about this time, but it's also the case that MLB basically prints money for everybody involved.

There should be some kind of inventive put in place in order to force teams to promote players and not mess with service time when they are ready. The players' side always only has nominal interest in defending younger guys, but it's in the interest of all players to get that resolved, since effectively what is happening is that teams are stealing the prime years of players at bare minimum prices, and in almost every case manipulating service clocks. With the exception of major international phenoms who reach MLB very quickly, what ends up happening is that players don't hit UFA until they are close to 30 and teams refuse to give them a big payday.

Players should be hitting free agency faster and I also think teams should be forced to spend more. This will put me in the minority of the thread I think, but while it's true that the Dodgers can spend like bonkers in all facets of the game, there is also no real excuse for the barebones payrolls that we run and other teams run. A salary cap and floor won't do much other than further compress the wages of the players, IMO. There's already basically a cap with the luxury tax, and I'd like to see some kind of coercion to prevent taking/mailing it in at the MLB level. A team like the Brewers is a small market team who built up a strong drafting and development process and has managed to at least spend a reasonable payroll to continue to be a solid team.

The negotiations should be really interesting.

All sports unions basically suppress the wages of their younger players to prop up free agency of their older players. It's pay-your-dues-get-tenure nonsense. However the MLB union now has to recognize that they've made it too good of a deal to just employ the younger guys in years 1-7 vs. paying for free agency in years 8+. That is basically killing salaries league-wide.

It's the only thing that enables the Pirates to potentially be able to compete with a $70M payroll, but it shouldn't happen.

Cap/Floor should also happen but it won't.
 

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
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Two things:

1. No one is advocating to not "stay the course." Again, there are options between "add no one of consequence" and "sign Scherzer and Bauer." Adding a quality veteran arm or two in free agency does not take them "off course," and it's a strawman to suggest that adding some real major league pitching would deviate from the building within the system.

2. You again do what all the optimists do and just project that every prospect of note will make it, be healthy, and pitch well. The idea that all 3 of Contreras, Yajure, and Wilson will be competent, reliable major league pitchers this time next year is a lovely thought and also a completely unrealistic one. The top 3 guys in your projected rotation have started a total of 18 major league games, 16 of those by Wilson (and most of those not well). I absolutely hope that's how things go and I absolutely think they should get the opportunity to stick, but the odds are that at least 1 or 2 of them will get hurt or struggle or both. Brault is nothing more than a lottery ticket - 2022 would be the 5th straight year he'd fall into the "well he's got upside so maybe this is the year..." mode.

I'll add that all of this is just an academic discussion as we all know that they won't add significant pieces this winter even if the post-Polanco payroll is disgracefully low.

1. Please refrain from using the tired strawman word. It was not applicable and is one of the most overused/misused terms in the f***ing English language. Has only sprung to prominence the past 10 odd years, mainly from academia, but I digress. There is too much material based in logic and financial certainty, based on history, to call anything I'm saying a strawman.

2. No I have not and given you are able to shape a sentence to an acceptable level in the English language, know I didn't say that in the post you quoted.

Most prospects don't make it. Literally said that in parts of the post above, and numerous other times as well. I'm almost 40. This isn't my first rodeo with this franchise and I certainly understand how economics work in the current structure of MLB, of which we are in worse position than all but a few teams in the entire league, which is an absolute fact. Now we can debate how unfair the system is, and it is that, for obvious reasons (big market teams like NY and LA don't want competition, just like people in power in business and politics) but this is not a franchise that has the resources to waste on middling FA's which is exactly what you're going to get 8-9 times out of 10 if you're only willing to fork over a few million here and there.

You can't sit there and type away that I'm operating with rose colored glasses and then advocate the team wasting 15-20 million over 2 years on a P, 5 million on an OF, another 5 million somewhere else, in hopes the player, on a contract that won't even keep them here through the next window, will be trade chips or push this team into winning territory (which is 82 games). This team is 100+ losses bad right now. Spending money on castoffs. hopes and dreams is bad business. Sure, you'll hit on a Liriano once in a blue moon but more often than not, it doesn't work that way.

And the difference between THAT and what I would do and hope Ben does, is if we're going to lose in the short term (we are) we should be getting the young players who could potentially help (Park, Castro, Marcano, Chavis of guys that are in MLB/AAA now) playing time. Why are we signing people that will almost surely block those types from getting more looks?

No FA you sign will push this team from 60 some odd wins to 80+. That's a massive ask from low end FA's which is exactly what you're buying at the prices being thrown out.

There is clearly a fundamental difference in how we're looking at the short term. You think that a few low end/modest FA's will push this team into more wins. Even IF that happens, a few more wins does nothing to transform us into a playoff team and going from 60-65 wins to 65-70. It does nothing other than give you a worse draft pick and less bonus pool money, which by the way is where a team like ours is always going to make the most headway in trying to compete. That and development of said draftees.

You spend money at the FA level, in a market like Pittsburgh, when the prospects you've accumulated, mature. The deeper the system, the more ammo you then have to play with when it comes time to add in June/July during a window in which a team is contending. And given the depth of our system, as I've outlined, will produce good and even a few great ML ballplayers. Many won't pan out but when you're pulling from a few dozen legitimate prospects between A-AAA, the reasonable expectation is that 1-2 will be become AS caliber players, a few more will become solid contributors and a bunch will flame out.

We're going to get a slew of talent in the draft again next year. It's up to Cherington's people to train and develop the many great to solid players we've added over the last 18 months. The foundation is absolutely present. The system is loaded. Stay patient. Don't waste resources on people who won't move the needle that much.
 

cookthebooks

Registered User
Oct 4, 2017
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per google trends peak interest in strawman was ~ 1980 and right now we are back to ~1960 levels. gotta get the first part right imo
 

ChaosAgent

Registered User
May 8, 2018
17,884
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I just want the MLB Team to be watchable, and there's an easy way to do that while not blocking prospects. Especially on the pitching side where we just don't have that many dudes in the upper minors.

Either way by the 2nd half of next year the team must be markedly better as some of the top guys come up from the farm.
 

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
18,861
7,895
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per google trends peak interest in strawman was ~ 1980 and right now we are back to ~1960 levels. gotta get the first part right imo

You clearly weren't a part of the now defunct political board here and I'd wager don't engage much with fellow college graduates. It's one of the most of the most overused words in the English language today, largely used by the academic crowd to generalize positions they don't agree with. And often, the term is misused, as it was above.

Google is not the be all and end all, despite their bullshit, authoritarian attempts to become so. I place very little stock in anything they say as a company or propose for society simply because they have no interest in humanity evolving for the better. They manipulate information to shape policy and financial standing in their own favor. No different than Amazon. No different than the government, regardless of party affiliation.

Back to baseball!
 
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