OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: About that Hayes kid...

Status
Not open for further replies.

Scandale du Jour

JordanStaal#1Fan
Mar 11, 2002
62,238
28,953
Asbestos, Qc
www.angelfire.com
Last few posts:

Hot take time:

Their current core of position players is the best the Bucs have had since McCutchen/Marte/Martin/Alvarez, although the depth and pitching are not close to comparable.

Heck, you might even take Frazier/Reynolds/Hayes/Moran/Stallings over the former group in a vacuum.

MMM was a huge part of the last success, but you're forgetting Walker and 4-5 win seasons from JHAY ('14) and Kang ('15)

That was wild!

Completely different ball club the last 3 days.

Keep Stallings.

It's amazing the difference a young superstar can make...

If you're trading Stallings, you need to get a lot more than the "Bell package" for him. Late Bloomer offensively, brilliant defensively and his longtime backup status has kept the tread-on-tires (knees) to a relative minimum.

Also needless to say that our prediction that the Pirates will end the year with the #1 farm system is looking correct. Wins all over.

Omar Cruz K'ing everybody again. Martin hitting again. Castro obliterating the ball.

Bae (who IMO would have started in Greensboro had our 2 highest-graded position players have needed to go there first) starting to really hit in Altoona.

I don't really know who this Shackleford guy is but he is clearly too good/powerful for Greensboro. He may not have a future but we should consider fast-tracking him anyway.



Continue...
 

DJ Spinoza

Registered User
Aug 7, 2003
25,349
3,874
Re: some of the discussion in the other thread: I think Deivi Garcia could be an interesting gamble to take, since he's scuffling but still extremely young and a ready-ish 50 FV prospect, not always easy to come by. I wouldn't say it's absolute, and there are better guys to ask for, but it's in general still a kind of talent gamble I'd like to see us take on. I don't think everything we do need to be aimed at 2024 or 2025. Certainly that is more ideal, and there's a bigger boom/bust potential with yet more lower minors guys, but I'd still be intrigued with the idea.

More generally, I'm going to try and avoid being repetitive about this, but the urgency to try and win has already begun, as far as I'm concerned. To use Cherington's parlance, we don't truly have enough "talent gathering" done yet, but it's pretty simple that when you have a player like Hayes to build around, you do it. If anything, Reynolds re-emergence this year has made it even more pressing, IMO. You can solve some depth and talent issues by actually trying and spending modestly in free agency, which is another way to bring in further talent to the system. Priority #1 should be extensions, but some better FA talent on short-term deals should also be in the cards as soon as this offseason.

And I think this extends to the upcoming deadline, too. Frazier essentially has to go -- you sell high. Anderson, obviously, for whatever gamble you can get, and I'd even say RichRod, in all likelihood. But there's really not going to be anything for Stallings and I'm not sure you could get enough for Moran to make it worth it.
 

ChaosAgent

Registered User
May 8, 2018
17,884
12,194
Re: some of the discussion in the other thread: I think Deivi Garcia could be an interesting gamble to take, since he's scuffling but still extremely young and a ready-ish 50 FV prospect, not always easy to come by. I wouldn't say it's absolute, and there are better guys to ask for, but it's in general still a kind of talent gamble I'd like to see us take on. I don't think everything we do need to be aimed at 2024 or 2025. Certainly that is more ideal, and there's a bigger boom/bust potential with yet more lower minors guys, but I'd still be intrigued with the idea.

More generally, I'm going to try and avoid being repetitive about this, but the urgency to try and win has already begun, as far as I'm concerned. To use Cherington's parlance, we don't truly have enough "talent gathering" done yet, but it's pretty simple that when you have a player like Hayes to build around, you do it. If anything, Reynolds re-emergence this year has made it even more pressing, IMO. You can solve some depth and talent issues by actually trying and spending modestly in free agency, which is another way to bring in further talent to the system. Priority #1 should be extensions, but some better FA talent on short-term deals should also be in the cards as soon as this offseason.

And I think this extends to the upcoming deadline, too. Frazier essentially has to go -- you sell high. Anderson, obviously, for whatever gamble you can get, and I'd even say RichRod, in all likelihood. But there's really not going to be anything for Stallings and I'm not sure you could get enough for Moran to make it worth it.

I think this the Frazier and Richrod trades, and this draft class, are the end of the talent-gathering.

Really we're not that far off if we get a 75th percentile outcome from the "Altoona six" (may as well throw Swaggerty in there to get lucky #7) which probably equates to 3-4 contributors - including 1 semi-star at least.

On the pitching end, Mlod and Roansy are on a fast-track clearly, Brubaker is an above-average guy and I think Yajure bounces back from TJ by end of next year. Plus I still think the org loves Brault and throws an extension his way. Oh yeah and Keller lol.

At the very least next year's payroll should be $90M+ and then we should be prepared to spend $125M+ in 2023.
 

DJ Spinoza

Registered User
Aug 7, 2003
25,349
3,874
I think we should increase payroll but that there is still a lot of a gap in talent in the system. It's very true that guys can and should be cracking into the big leagues by around this time next year, if not sooner in a handful of cases, and so a big question is really how much that talent is supplemented. The kind of "impact supplementary" talent (if this even makes sense) has always been well outside of what we've ever spent – I'm talking about a 2-3 year deal for even a guy like Marte, or maybe more ambitiously/ambiguously, Conforto (injuries make it hard to ballpark and even harder to get false hopes up, but he'd fill a position of need and be a real impact in the order).

My expectations and hopes are low. If we can nail down extensions for Hayes and Reynolds, that will be plenty more than I expect and lay the groundwork for better possibilities in future seasons. Maybe we'll be a little more aggressive than the Anderson signing (pretty low bar)... I guess you could squint and look at a guy like Mark Canha as a kind of compromise candidate - he is on pace for a career year, but his skillset shouldn't deteriorate too badly and he'd lengthen the lineup. It really shouldn't be out of the question to sign a modest 3 year deal with a veteram like that, who gives you some better coverage, and maybe add another pitcher (even just resigning Anderson) and with any injury luck, you're probably a fringe WC team for most of the season.

But I think we have to be realistic and wait and see. If we extend Hayes, it will be the biggest contract in organizational history, and this includes even if he takes a deal weakened by our built-in leverage. We could sign Canha for 3 years, 12M per year and it would practically be the biggest deal in team history too. Hayes and Reynolds would be way better than anything else, and then I expect us to have another kind of wait and see year where we cycle through a few more veterans while we see which (if any) new prospects can pop. But to me, despite granting that it's fair to be conservative towards the prospect window, this ultimately means throwing away a prime Hayes year. If Nutting wants to change the narrative, extending both and then spending real money on a Michael Conforto would be the way to do it.
 

Gallatin

A Banksy of Goonism
Mar 4, 2010
2,951
541
Pittsburgh
At the very least next year's payroll should be $90M+ and then we should be prepared to spend $125M+ in 2023.

Got a little ahead of yourself here eh? Shoulda woulda coulda - we're talking Nutting's here - no way that happens. No effing way.

I'll be super stoked to see them spend into the top 20 teams when they actually have a good roster. That's actually possible, that's why BC came in. That's being a realist. I think.

Expecting more is setting yourself up IMO bro.
 
Last edited:

bigdaddyk88

Registered User
Apr 21, 2019
3,760
695
90 million pay roll are we signing a ton of free agents in the off season? We currently have 22 million on the books in 22. That’s if we pick up Gregory 12 million option and Pedo 10 million but since he is in jail that will be exempt.
 

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
18,861
7,895
Oblivion Express
We'd be foolish to spend money until our team has a legitimate chance to contend. It's not this year, probably won't be next year even. But make no mistake there are enough pieces that we should start making noise by 2023 IF we can develop the bevy of talent in the minors now.

The only money I want to see spent in the near future is a nice 6-7 year extension for Hayes. I'd have zero issue going 6 years 80 million or 7/100. Those are both very doable as even Nutting has shelled out 10+ per year to multi year contracts in the last decade. Only a couple but it's not completely foreign and Hayes has a McCutchen ceiling certainly and if he continues to hit at an elite rate, will be worth even more because he's a better defender than Cutch was (value wise).

I'd also like to see Reynolds given a solid offer though if we're only able/willing to pay a single player long term, it has to be Hayes, without question.

We'll go as far as our development people take the young guys in the minors. Talent is there certainly.

Sell extremely high on Frazier. I think other teams are going to wait him out, hoping for a slide in hitting to lower his value. Hoping we move him sooner than later because the odds are, at some point those BABIP #'s won't hold up. Not saying he's destined for a Bell like dropoff (Frazier is way to good at contact hitter for that) but right now his value has to be about maxed out.

Rich Rod should be moved though he's scuffled his last few outings. Really hope he gets back to what he was doing the first 8 weeks of the season.

I wouldn't move Stallings. We don't have much else in way of C and he's cheap. He'll get a nice raise in arb I'm sure, but nothing to break the bank. Unless you're getting a huge offer, I'd hold onto him for at least another year.
 

DJ Spinoza

Registered User
Aug 7, 2003
25,349
3,874
I definitely think we need to remain realistic and that Hayes + Reynolds would be a pretty big step that is worth forgoing any speculative talk about anyone else for now.

For what it's worth, last week a number of people were asking Jason Mackey about Hayes in his chat – he said that he had not heard anything like what Murray reported about Hayes' camp countering with the Acuña deal, just that they were relatively far apart and that talks didn't go that far. However, he also said that his opinion is that something will get done and that there's no bad blood at all between the sides. It sounds like it was really just a case of not wanting to rush into anything.

It's overly simplistic, but at the end of the day, when you look at it like Cherington wanting to put his stamp on the team, he really couldn't have had a better positioning outside of the obvious payroll questions, but those teams often don't get the kind of "year zero" he's essentially got here. Yes, Hayes, Reynolds, and others aren't "his", but I doubt that really matters. Once Frazier is traded and Polanco is either traded or bought out, the payroll commitment to next year is almost nothing. He inherited some young stars, a good system that he's turned into a better one (and now has to develop), and can totally build in any way he wants.

Step one should certainly be the Hayes extension. Step two is Reynolds, which I think should be fairly doable as well and at least somewhat urgent due to the lack of depth in the OF. If we aren't willing to commit to Reynolds, then he's definitely a sell high type candidate. There's a counter-intuitive possibility to do a shocker and trade him this season if some team will really pay a ransom, but I sort of don't know how you do that and satiate the fans, which I think is actually fairly important for the Pirates.

But all of this is to say, especially if you nail down extensions for both, you are pretty much going to have absolute cost certainty for 2-3 more years. There are only a handful of players who will be in or reach arbitration by then, and some of them could be jettisoned in one way or another. This is a fairly unique opportunity and investing in some FA isn't even going to require running a modest 100M payroll.

This is too meandering, but my skepticism/pessimism comes in at exactly this point, because while I think we can will get the payroll up eventually, I think it will be more of the brief window kind of thing than anything sustainably built. And if you run barebones payrolls leading up to that, you don't give yourself too much of a window in the end. If we can really become a powerhouse system that replenishes itself and develops well in all facets (i.e. impact players, supplementary players, and some solid organizational depth), then we can skate the window more sustainably, but a lot of that remains to be seen.

For now, this is worrying about many steps in advance and I think Hayes' return has clearly put an exclamation mark on how important he is over anything else. I hope the plan is really to follow Cherington's cliche of continuing to get better: we need better play than we got in May going forward, and then next year we need to build on the first steps even if it's not a full-throated attempt to compete. If you avoid injuries and young players continue to develop, IMO this team is a better OF and a solid SP away from being able to hang more against all the division teams consistently and at least more viable against the non-division teams, for the most part (certain of them come down to contingencies like pitching matchups and injuries, and in any case, you can't really try to chase everybody on paper).

Spending 25M or so on Canha and a pitcher would scratch you towards that direction, though I do think pitching is always the premium that we don't want to go after, since it really does require 10M+ commitments just for a guy who might be ok. Circling back, even though it's risky, this is why I wouldn't mind the stab at Deivi Garcia, since if you got him right, he gives you that kind of production in his innings for drastically cheaper, meaning that you can comfortably spend 10-15M on a solid bat to lengthen the lineup, maybe 3-5M on a bench bat, and just hope for the best with your young rotation. 2022 is going to be an extreme long shot regardless of how we try to draw it up, and if Yajure goes down to TJ, that's a big loss which shows the thin depth we'd have to count on in any case, but I guess the main point I would insist on is that despite this long shot, 2022 is by definition part of the window because Hayes is here.
 

DanielPlainview

Registered User
Apr 28, 2009
8,831
3,100
Stallings could get an unexpected haul. A catcher as well-rounded as he's become is not that common. The issue, of course, is the lack of organization depth at the position - which there is effectively 0. Moving him now likely means mediocre-to-bad C play till '23 or '24 (I'm fine with that, for the record, as long as the return is good enough).
 

WheresRamziAbid

Registered User
Oct 31, 2013
7,240
2,093
Stallings could get an unexpected haul. A catcher as well-rounded as he's become is not that common. The issue, of course, is the lack of organization depth at the position - which there is effectively 0. Moving him now likely means mediocre-to-bad C play till '23 or '24 (I'm fine with that, for the record, as long as the return is good enough).

If he was 28 id probably agree.

too many things that work against trade value.

Good not great.
Short track record
32
 

DanielPlainview

Registered User
Apr 28, 2009
8,831
3,100
32 but only 181 ML games played. The lack of wear-and-tear definitely helps here. Of course, he's not going to net a massive haul, but certainly more than would have ever been expected when he was backing-up Cervelli.
 

bigdaddyk88

Registered User
Apr 21, 2019
3,760
695
If he was 28 id probably agree.

too many things that work against trade value.

Good not great.
Short track record
32
He is the best potential catcher on the market unless the Cubs but Congress out there cause they can’t afford to sign him.
I am ok with buying prospects cause we have no salary commitment next year. I would take Sanchez off the Yankees opening up 6 million for them to spend and stay under the Competitive balance threshold
 

WheresRamziAbid

Registered User
Oct 31, 2013
7,240
2,093
He is the best potential catcher on the market unless the Cubs but Congress out there cause they can’t afford to sign him.
I am ok with buying prospects cause we have no salary commitment next year. I would take Sanchez off the Yankees opening up 6 million for them to spend and stay under the Competitive balance threshold

Other than realmuto who is an entirely different level and situation when is the last time a mid level catcher got a good return. Stallings is a lot closer to Ramos in 18 and Cervelli in 15.

combined they returned a PTBNL and Justin Wilson.
 

DJ Spinoza

Registered User
Aug 7, 2003
25,349
3,874
Yeah I don't think he'll get anything. His value to the Pirates as a cheap, veteran, above average leader type is going to far outweigh any trade. Maybe in the best case scenario, you could get a team to give up some real high variance type of lower level guy, analogous to Escotto, but that kind of move would portend a really disastrous scenario of trying not to compete at all for several years, even if it was a kind of tandem move with drafting Davis or something (just to spitball a scenario).

We could definitely absorb Sanchez's contract for a year and a half if the Yankees would be interested in unloading him, since it's not like Perez has offered all that much as a backup. I doubt it's a good matchup -- maybe you could try and flip Polanco and Sanchez, but that would probably bring them too close to the luxury tax threshold without a lot of clear upside.

In a more interesting twist, maybe you could absorb Sanchez back in a potential Frazier deal to maximize the prospects you can ask for. My read is that Medina and Gil were essentially off limits in the Taillon deal which is how we ended up swindling them out of Contreras. I don't expect Cashman to be that aggressive, but then again the Yankees core continues to get older and they have nothing to show. Frazier fulfills a real need but he's also all hit tool. I think he'll be sought after by teams but it'd be more of a slam dunk return if he had better plate discipline. If I were an acquiring team, my position would be that we're basically hoping his outrageous season continues as long as possible, since otherwise he's just a fairly solid above average guy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Scandale du Jour

WheresRamziAbid

Registered User
Oct 31, 2013
7,240
2,093
32 but only 181 ML games played. The lack of wear-and-tear definitely helps here. Of course, he's not going to net a massive haul, but certainly more than would have ever been expected when he was backing-up Cervelli.

hes been a catcher his whole life.

A. There is still plenty of wear and tear
B. 32 i solidly past peak whether you play a grueling defensive position or not.

Its nice hes having a career year at 32 but i dont think anyone would be willing to pay a price to find out if he can keep the magic going.

now he would get something for sure. Maybe a 40-40+ grade prospect and a reclamation project of a reliever that has stuff but bad results/control.
 

DJ Spinoza

Registered User
Aug 7, 2003
25,349
3,874


Does seem like the market is heating up a bit (more Murray's story than Heyman's tweet). I think it makes sense to aggressively shop Frazier now, attaching an additional piece if it's the right return, but there's also the question of waiting for all possible teams to get into the mix. It will be interesting to see how it shakes out given the rumors around Ketel Marte, who I think would fetch a good bit more due to his age and contract.
 

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
18,861
7,895
Oblivion Express
If the Yankees want Frazier, Gil or Medina are coming back. If not, you headline with Peraza. Otherwise, have a nice day.

There's not much of an argument that Marte would have had better value when we landed Peguero/Malone from the Dbacks. Frazier is cheaper, younger. more versatile and doesn't have the PED stigma.

I would be quite disappointed if Cherington doesn't get at least similar talents in the next month or so.

I see at least a half dozen contenders that could definitely use an upgrade at 2B alone, not counting using Frazier in the OF. The setup for a nice haul is right where you want as a seller.
 

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
18,861
7,895
Oblivion Express
Stallings could get an unexpected haul. A catcher as well-rounded as he's become is not that common. The issue, of course, is the lack of organization depth at the position - which there is effectively 0. Moving him now likely means mediocre-to-bad C play till '23 or '24 (I'm fine with that, for the record, as long as the return is good enough).

It'll be interesting to see if we draft Davis, how that impacts Cherington when he gets calls on Stallings. Obviously Davis is a great prospect, possible 2 way star long term, but C is arguably the toughest position to scout (project). Stallings would basically be the placeholder until Davis arrived (likely summer 2023). But again, he's not untouchable. If someone wants to give up a gem, you almost surely pull the trigger.
 

DJ Spinoza

Registered User
Aug 7, 2003
25,349
3,874
Just to be clear, I mean that the Diamondback's original Marte has more potential value since he's locked up on a good deal. Hard to say if they'll deal him, they seem kind of in no man's land.

I agree that Gil, Medina, and Peraza are the obvious headliners, but I think Cashman will continue to have cold feet. Another guy on their list I like the sound of is OF Kevin Alcantara, 6'5", not even 19 yet and really tooled up. Probably off limits as already giving a 50 FV grade, but that's the kind of high upside return that could truly change the equation.

It's difficult to know exactly how teams are going to value Frazier. I don't want to undersell him out of pessimism, but it's hard to gauge since he has flexibility, improved defense, a history of strong hitting, and pop, but has also had the bottom come out a few times with cold streaks. Utility players can sometimes have boosted value, so I think we just have to hope that a few contending teams will chase that. I think the (Starling) Marte deal might be ok as an inflated-value deadline return, and if BC can get those kinds of lower minors prospects who have solid chances to break out, he absolutely should do it, regardless of whatever kind of intriguing deals can be swung for closer/already ready guys.

At the same time, I could see teams being a bit more tight-fisted, which is where I think it could get more interesting. We'll see when/if any rumors start trickling in. I'd sort of like to see BC move on multiple fronts at the deadline. Priority is selling a few pieces, but maybe explore some possibility like a swap of so-so/struggling young talent with a rebuilding AL team. Maybe do a change of scenery with Newman or Tucker, for example. Another "genre" of deal that might be worth exploring is taking on a pitcher who has struggled a bit but has another year of possible control or something, to run out there for the final few months and see if you might work up a better profile. Obviously, these other ideas are more specific to teams' needs/desires and therefore a lot more contingent than selling talent for the best package, but these could be under the radar ways to improve the immediate future of the team.
 
Last edited:

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
18,861
7,895
Oblivion Express
Not sure if this was posted in the final pages of the last thread but just noticed it and figured I'd share. Scout poll directly on Lawler vs. Mayer -- figure many of us have somewhat set opinions, but still worth a read: Experts debate which SS should go No. 1

I think we'll pick Mayer.

Unless Leiter does something incredible in the super reg/CWS I think it's MM and if I had to pick between the 2 SS's, I want the guy who passes the eye test at first glance. Mayer is smooooth. Definitely some Machado there. I can see the Seager comps (bat wise). His hands through the zone are really strong for an 18 year old. When I talk about Polanco's loop, take a super slow mo of his swing and put it next to an 18 year old Mayer's. Ideally you want a near/straight line through the zone, with the hands.

Davis has hit his entire college career, in a great conference. Steadily improved defensively. Cannon arm and elite leadership qualities. 6'2'' 210 lbs already. Good athlete. If I knew he was at least going to have a floor of a solid starting C, he's the pick, because the ceiling is pretty high there IMO. C's are just so damn hard to read.

I'm also seeing Rocker outside the top 10 now. Definitely blows my mind. Command keeps coming up (along with fastball, which I can at least understand) though his numbers are superior to Leiter, by a healthy margin, and are much improved from the shortened 2020. Having watched him numerous times, I definitely feel like tighenting up the command was one of the biggest wins for Rocker this year. The fastball dropping velo there for a bit was concerning, but again, he changed grips mid season and that probably had a lot to do with it because his last start he was 95-96 again more than a few times. I just cannot understand picking apart the command and ignoring it being an issue on other top P prospects. Again, eye test. Stats. They both aren't lying.

Ah well.

Just hope whoever we take pans out.
 

DJ Spinoza

Registered User
Aug 7, 2003
25,349
3,874
Contreras with a solid enough start, though not a pristine line as he leaves two guys on the bases and both come in to score against the reliever. He didn't quite have his sharpest command tonight but still kept things mostly in check and was dominant in moments, so that's good to see. Was able to work around any issues he had, but then got pulled at 87 pitches. I wouldn't have minded seeing if he could get out of the jam, but it's understandable with the tight pitch counts we've been running and better to err on the side of caution.

Unrelated note but the ball really seems like it takes off from Mitchell's bat. With him adding some speed to his game, I think he could end up as a nice player.
 

Gallatin

A Banksy of Goonism
Mar 4, 2010
2,951
541
Pittsburgh
Contreras with a solid enough start, though not a pristine line as he leaves two guys on the bases and both come in to score against the reliever. He didn't quite have his sharpest command tonight but still kept things mostly in check and was dominant in moments, so that's good to see. Was able to work around any issues he had, but then got pulled at 87 pitches. I wouldn't have minded seeing if he could get out of the jam, but it's understandable with the tight pitch counts we've been running and better to err on the side of caution.

Unrelated note but the ball really seems like it takes off from Mitchell's bat. With him adding some speed to his game, I think he could end up as a nice player.

Mitchell's damn near the top of my list for unexpected breakout candidates this year.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad