OT: Raise the Jolly Rodger: Post Ship trading deadline

Status
Not open for further replies.

DJ Spinoza

Registered User
Aug 7, 2003
25,350
3,874
Tough loss, but solid game across the board. Strong showing from Keller, and I do think Davis generally looks better at the plate, though I'm not sure I love babying him in the 8th spot in the order. I'd rather see him higher up to at least have a better chance at more ABs.

I actually had tickets, but it's completely miserable weather here, which is almost always the case when the Pirates visit. It's either early April (like next year) or the very end of the season (we were the last home series for Philly in 2022 too).

I would think that's probably it for Keller in 2023, but the broadcast made it seem like he might pitch on Sunday. He's at 194.1 innings, so it wouldn't be surprising if he wanted to get to 200, but he's been on consistent 5-day rest, and there's really no reason to push it for a meaningless season. I'd be glad to sit on my couch and watch him cap off the season Sunday, but I'd rather just bank the fantastic performance and look to 2024.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Scandale du Jour

Empoleon8771

Registered User
Aug 25, 2015
81,454
79,570
Redmond, WA
He's only 1/2 but Davis is continuing his hot play at the plate with 2 RBIs and another run scored on a double play he hit into. I also just learned that a player doesn't get credit for an RBI if they hit into a double play and a run scores, I don't understand why that's the case but hitting into a groundout counts as an RBI.

Oviedo was having a good outing until he just gave up a HR last inning. It's now 5-4 after the Pirates started up 5-0.
 

Empoleon8771

Registered User
Aug 25, 2015
81,454
79,570
Redmond, WA
Suwinski just hit a triple against a lefty. This is a bizarre world.

He's been quietly on fire recently, he has an OPS of .922 in his last 25 games. He really just needs to ease out on the highs and lows he goes through, he needs to be a semi-consistent hitter rather than hitting 1.200 for a month just to hit .400 the month after.
 

sovietsanta87

Registered User
Jan 3, 2013
2,703
1,540
Pittsburgh, PA
I think they have to go for it next year. They have the pieces. Sign a couple dudes in free agency and we’ll win our first central title next year.

The fact that the brewers have made the playoffs 5 of the last 6 years is enough evidence to that we can do it next year and still sustain success
 

Empoleon8771

Registered User
Aug 25, 2015
81,454
79,570
Redmond, WA
It's been a quiet game but the Pirates have had an absolute hell of a bullpen game. 0 runs, 5 hits and 1 walk through 7 innings.

I'm really hoping they meet my goal of 77 wins, they're at 75 today and currently winning 3-0.
 

DJ Spinoza

Registered User
Aug 7, 2003
25,350
3,874
I can't quite bring myself to root against the Pirates but I sure do want the Marlins to make the playoffs over both the Cubs and Reds.

I like Selby's stuff in the abstract but he has been so reliably terrible so far. Nicolas on the other hand had a much stronger shower in a lower leverage scenario. The stuff numbers settle very fast and were positive after his first appearance, and that tracks with his AAA performance in the pen. I think Selby has good stuff and could look drastically different next year, so between that, plenty of options + plenty of cheap control, there's no reason to put his roster spot in jeopardy. A team like the Rays would claim him quickly IMO.

Ultimately I do not think you can draw a lot of conclusions about bullpen performances in a handful of late games. Maybe Mlodzinski has given himself a slight leg up but ultimately I think you toss a number of different guys into the mix next spring, and performance + depth flexibility and options dictate who end up as middle relief type guys. Bido, Selby, Nicolas, several others have certain positive qualities and could be helpful, but I think the bullpen really needs a stabilizing veteran in addition to Bednar.
 

Empoleon8771

Registered User
Aug 25, 2015
81,454
79,570
Redmond, WA
Please DFA Selby.

He has had 21 outings and has given up runs in 10 of those outings. He's garbage, it doesn't matter that he strikes out a bunch of guys because the dude sucks outside of that.

I understand why the Pirates like him, he was great between AA and AAA in 2022 and had decent numbers in AAA in 2023. But the dude has zero control and has no business being in the MLB. It is mind boggling to me that they keep throwing him out there despite how consistently awful he has been.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: TNT87 and td_ice

td_ice

Peter shows the way
Aug 13, 2005
33,004
3,569
USA
Please DFA Selby.

He has had 21 outings and has given up runs in 10 of those outings. He's garbage, it doesn't matter that he strikes out a bunch of guys because the dude sucks outside of that.

I understand why the Pirates like him, he was great between AA and AAA in 2022 and had decent numbers in AAA in 2023. But the dude has zero control and has no business being in the MLB. It is mind boggling to me that they keep throwing him out there despite how consistently awful he has been.
I agree. Some dynamic "stuff" but he can't harness it, can't control it. So unreliable.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TNT87

ChaosAgent

Registered User
May 8, 2018
17,884
12,194
Please DFA Selby.

He has had 21 outings and has given up runs in 10 of those outings. He's garbage, it doesn't matter that he strikes out a bunch of guys because the dude sucks outside of that.

I understand why the Pirates like him, he was great between AA and AAA in 2022 and had decent numbers in AAA in 2023. But the dude has zero control and has no business being in the MLB. It is mind boggling to me that they keep throwing him out there despite how consistently awful he has been.

I think to @DJ Spinoza 's point, good stuff bullpen guys run hot and cold. I don't want to totally give up on the guy cheaply, though right now...yeah, he sucks.
I will say that Yohan Ramirez had nastier stuff and they gave up on him.

I'm growing concerned with Endy and Peguero offensively. Peguero is really struggling to hit big league sliders. Endy is showing the worrying signs from AAA...consistently soft contact. The ability to rake is definitely in there but he's going to need to take some harder hacks.
 

DJ Spinoza

Registered User
Aug 7, 2003
25,350
3,874
Besides the poor depth up and down the roster, the reason Selby is getting run is that the games don't matter. He has a great slider, average fastball, and good curveball. It's not a smart decision to DFA a guy like that after his first taste of the big leagues, given that he still has multiple options and pre-arb years of control.

This may seem like something small to get hung up on, but there are several roster cuts I'd be considering before simply cutting ties with a guy like this. If nothing else, keep him around as a depth option for next year. With the stuff grades on his pitches, it looks to be a question of execution to me, along with the obvious that his walk rate is not going to cut it. He seems like someone who could benefit from a Rays-style single target, because the stuff is so good that he should be able to just challenge hitters with it, especially in one inning bursts.

He, Nicolas, and Holderman are very similar in terms of their makeup and what they bring to the table. I see several other spots that should be on the chopping block first, and I don't think you want to be left holding the bag after cutting the wrong one too soon, or else you'll end up with another Stephenson on your hands (who now grades as the best of the entire group, now that the Rays have him dialed in).
 

DJ Spinoza

Registered User
Aug 7, 2003
25,350
3,874


Should be one of the top priorities this winter, if not the top. It sounds like he would like to sign, has good momentum after a strong full season, and there is probably a pretty good mixture of risk and reward in terms of what happens on his end if 2024 is a big regression but also on the Pirates end if 2023 ends up being a stepping stone to an even higher level.

Injury could always burn you, but IMO getting Keller locked in on the same timeline as Hayes and Reynolds is step one towards building for the next few years. I'd put giving the Hunter Greene contract to Skenes up there as well, but I think Keller being extended is much more likely.
 

Empoleon8771

Registered User
Aug 25, 2015
81,454
79,570
Redmond, WA
Interesting that Keller is talking about locking up Cruz long-term as well, I wonder if Cruz's missed season will make him be more willing to take a cheaper long-term deal. Something in the same neighborhood as Hayes (long term at about $8 million a year AAV) seems pretty reasonable on paper.

Give Keller something like 6 years and $90 million and Cruz 9 years and $72 million or something like that.
 

Scandale du Jour

JordanStaal#1Fan
Mar 11, 2002
62,238
28,953
Asbestos, Qc
www.angelfire.com
Interesting that Keller is talking about locking up Cruz long-term as well, I wonder if Cruz's missed season will make him be more willing to take a cheaper long-term deal. Something in the same neighborhood as Hayes (long term at about $8 million a year AAV) seems pretty reasonable on paper.

Give Keller something like 6 years and $90 million and Cruz 9 years and $72 million or something like that.
I think we have a pretty good core. Especially with Skenes joining.

2 or 3 good free agent signings and we could win the division next year.

I might be naive, but I think the Buccos are fairly close to contending for a good 6-7 years.
 

DJ Spinoza

Registered User
Aug 7, 2003
25,350
3,874
I was scanning back to see if I could find some pages of old threads with record predictions but got lazy and gave up. I'm mildly optimistic for the future -- it will depend a lot on whether we see the small aggression that (in fairness) was shown last winter stepped up more. Most teams can't pull off the kind of meteoric rise that the Orioles have gone through and likely are still going to display if they get good injury luck.

Orioles went from 52-110 to 83-79 and now 102=60 if they win today.
We were 62-100 and can be 76-86 if we win today.

There's no way to deny that a 14 or 15-game improvement, fueled largely by young players finding their footing, is a solid season in general. I think this is so in two regards: you have very young players getting a taste of a full season, with positive signs but still very much question marks all around. You also have established young players finding or maintaining high gears as they step forward to cement themselves as core players. Next year, Reynolds is 29, Hayes is 27, and Keller is 28.

Assuming you get the latter extended this winter, those are positive building blocks who demonstrated it with performance. I don't think it needs to be said that Cruz having 2023 completely wiped is an enormous blow, because not only would we likely be right around .500, but it would also probably be even more optimistic to count him firmly in that group of more established MLBers, whereas now his 2024 may vary between the ups and downs we can expect to see more of from Davis, Endy, etc., and the "this guy is a building block" that we have in Keller starting, and so on. Of course, Cruz is a pretty volatile player and only has a small track record, so it's not worth pushing too much into this, but even with all of the frustrating things that have happened on the field throughout 2023, his whole season being wiped is far and away the biggest blow.

All of this is to say that 2023 was really a mixed bag at the end for me. Hayes clicking in this fashion, along with Keller rebounding from the post-ASB hiccup and finishing strong with 194 innings, really helped to "salvage" what it many ways looks like continued missed opportunity, which I think will still loom in 2024, because the most optimism I can muster about free agency is that we'll run back what we did last winter with some small variations and maybe, maybe a surprise trade.

I think we can look no further at this missed opportunity than across the dugout for the final game today. Miami is headed to the playoffs with 84 wins. Their active AAV in 2023 is about 110M, ours is 75M. They made a modest signing of Jorge Soler for 3/36 a few years back and some tactical trades to boost a team that consistently plugged away this season. Most tellingly, perhaps, is this anecdote: both of our teams traded Starling Marte. The one who is going to the playoffs has the player they received from that trade starting the first wild card game this week, while the one hoping for 76 wins instead of 75, who also had multiple years of control on Marte when they traded him, got back a question mark MIF prospect and a guy who might be out of baseball soon.

I don't want to leave it on a sour note with Peguero, since I still think there's some reasons to be positive about him, but I guess this is all to say that as solid as a +15 win improvement is from 20,000 feet, there are still a lot more reasons to be pessimistic until proven otherwise.

Finally, I am hoping for a win to close out 2023, but there is a bit of tank jockeying that could happen today. If we lose and the Mets win, then I think we can end up in the 7th position, which not for nothing is where the Rangers were last year to move up to 3rd. If we win and the Guardians lose, we might fall to 9th. That said, I think 7-9th is really marginal with lots of weird luck involved, so it's not really worth being too hung up on any of this. I thought maybe Jared Jones would get an MLB cameo, but it seems like we'll probably just go with a bullpen game today.
 

BusinessGoose

Registered User
May 19, 2022
3,553
3,407
St. Louis
I might be naive, but I think the Buccos are fairly close to contending for a good 6-7 years.
For top three in division / wild cards / winning records, I agree

I don't think they have the x factor higher tier of guys to do more right now. And it'll take $30mil+ more payroll to try and get a couple, which might be a tall ask

But the chore of watching them for 162 games should be turning into more fun than dread
 

Empoleon8771

Registered User
Aug 25, 2015
81,454
79,570
Redmond, WA
Nice to see the Pirates finish with a win, ending the year at 76-86. It's their best season since 2018 and the largest jump in wins (62 to 76 for +14) they've had in a single season since 2013 (79 to 94 wins for +15).

I think the Pirates are going to go through a similar building-up phase that they went from 2010-2013. They went from 57 to 72 to 79 to 94 wins over those 4 seasons, I think this year was that first jump and we're going to see a more mild jump next year. However, a mild jump is likely enough to put them in a WC spot due to the expanded format.

A lot remains to be determined with the off-season, but I'm expecting them to jump to about 82-85 wins for next year and be at least a challenger for a WC spot.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Scandale du Jour

Empoleon8771

Registered User
Aug 25, 2015
81,454
79,570
Redmond, WA
As an aside, I'd be calling up the Mets about trading for Quintana this off-season since they seem to be selling. They absolutely need a mid rotation lefty and Quintana has continued to be really strong since leaving the Pirates. He only has 2 years left at $13 million and I imagine the Mets would eat money to get a stronger return, so I think that could be a super affordable option.

They won't start the year with Skenes in the majors, but I'm hoping to see a starting rotation of something like Keller, Skenes, Quintana, Oviedo and a UFA like Alex Wood or Velasquez by June of next year. With that group plus Brubaker and Contreras in the bullpen, they may actually have some starting pitcher options for next year unlike this year. You c
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad