Question on cap compliance penalty. (Update: New article sheds new light - post #7)

[markzab]

Let me start off by saying I don't think we'll have any issue getting cap compliant by the date we need to be, but I've kind of been curious as to what would happen if we weren't. If I'm not mistaken we have to have our roster under the cap by a certain date, and then once the season starts we just LTIR Pronger and we're good to go. What if Hextall just said F-it, signed someone, put us 2m over the cap, and then just waited for the time when he could LTIR Pronger to get us back down under the cap for the season?

I can't imagine the league automatically waiving one of our players. So I'm guessing a fine is what would happen? Like every day you're over the cap you get hit with 10 or 100k? Does anyone know the exact details of this type of situation? And also, could you see a wealthy team like Philly just saying screw it, we'll pay it, if the scenario presented itself?

Thanks in advance.

Click to read more...

 

[MiamiScreamingEagles]

The team is allowed to exceed the cap by 10% during the summer/offseason.

There are a variety of fines that can be imposed under articles (#26 to cite one) in the CBA depending on the specifics on the acquisition in question.

Around pages 119-120+ in this link, see if your proposal is met especially if it is deemed to be a circumvention.

http://www.nhl.com/cba/2005-CBA.pdf

26.9 Violative Filings. Any Club which files an SPC, which if approved and
registered, would cause the Club's Averaged Club Salary to impermissibly exceed the
Upper Limit of the Range, shall be fined a minimum of $25,000, regardless of whether
the SPC was registered and regardless of whether the terms of the SPC constitute or are
the result of a Circumvention.
26.10

(that link is the prior CBA, the current version can be downloaded here: http://www.nhlpa.com/inside-nhlpa/collective-bargaining-agreement )

 

[markzab]

Just saw your response. So as things stand right now, if we couldnt move vinny or grossman before the season started we'd probably just get a 25k fine? Thats really not a big deal. If I were hextall and another GM tried saying he was up against the ropes, I'd tell him the Flyers wouldn't have a problem getting hit with a fine.

 

[GKJ]

Just saw your response. So as things stand right now, if we couldnt move vinny or grossman before the season started we'd probably just get a 25k fine? Thats really not a big deal. If I were hextall and another GM tried saying he was up against the ropes, I'd tell him the Flyers wouldn't have a problem getting hit with a fine.

You're talking blatant circumvention of the cap. That would certainly come with a stiffer penalty.

There's precedent that the league would allow the team to either play with a short roster, or sign players to one-game only tryout contracts. The Flames and Devils back in the early days of the cap ran into these issues, the Flames because of injuries at least, I'm not sure about the Devils, they had trouble staying under the cap when they signed Kovalchuk.

This is off in another direction, but I would have liked to have seen the NHL adopt a similar rule from the NFL. In the NFL only the top 51 contracts on your 53 man roster count on the salary cap. That allows teams to mix and match their roster because of injuries and whatnot. I think the NHL should do the same for short-term injuries where guys only need to go on IR for a week.

 

[dats81]

Just saw your response. So as things stand right now, if we couldnt move vinny or grossman before the season started we'd probably just get a 25k fine? Thats really not a big deal. If I were hextall and another GM tried saying he was up against the ropes, I'd tell him the Flyers wouldn't have a problem getting hit with a fine.

That would be just the minimum financial fine but the league seems to be able to impose more drastic measures for cap circumvention, see NJ and Kovalchuck.

We could lose our first round pick next season and that would really hurt.

 

[kyuss]

That would be just the minimum financial fine but the league seems to be able to impose more drastic measures for cap circumvention, see NJ and Kovalchuck.

We could lose our first round pick next season and that would really hurt.

Could the clubs file for arbitration in situation like that? I can't remember if NJ just bowed to the league. Now that I think about it, I vaguely remember a court case in regards to the original Kovy deal.

Anyway, there should be a decision on the LTIR problems with Pronger and Savard. If the Flyers have to push it by going over the cap this year, so be it.

 

[markzab]

Actually guys, take a look at the article BSH just put out this morning...

http://www.broadstreethockey.com/2014/7/3/5865615/flyers-salary-cap-pronger-ltir

We may have been wrong all along. And what they're saying about adding as close to Pronger's cap hit as possible befotre the start of the season may be what's been going on over the past 2 days with all these minor contracts we've been seeing. Real interesting read...

If the Flyers opt to just place Pronger on LTIR before the start of the season, they better make sure they spend some more money (or recall more players) and get as close to $4.941 million over the cap as is humanly possible so that they can maximize Pronger's LTIR allotment.

So if you're hanging your hat on the Flyers doing something, like trading Vincent Lecavalier, soon just because they "have" to in order to get under the cap ... well, no they don't.

(The last 2 large titled sections are the ones that interest us most if you're in a rush and can't read the whole thing.)

 

[flyershockey]

Actually guys, take a look at the article BSH just put out this morning...

http://www.broadstreethockey.com/2014/7/3/5865615/flyers-salary-cap-pronger-ltir

We may have been wrong all along. And what they're saying about adding as close to Pronger's cap hit as possible befotre the start of the season may be what's been going on over the past 2 days with all these minor contracts we've been seeing. Real interesting read...



(The last 2 large titled sections are the ones that interest us most if you're in a rush and can't read the whole thing.)

Yeah, I believe Boston went this route last year. It's not ideal, but it is an option in they can't move a contract.

 

[markzab]

I think this goes to show that Hextall is in no way handcuffed in any trade talks he has with any teams involving Grossman or VLC, and further is adding to the roster to show that. Is it possible wefinally have a GM that understands the rules and dynamics of the CBA? lol

 

[KJS14]

Curufinwe has been saying this for months now. Probably longer.

 

[Jtown]

I have another question about this. And i guess this is true for all sports. But what if a player signs a team friendly deal during the course of his play, and then ed snider sells him his house for lets say 1 dollar. Or he is hired as a scout to the the tune of 4 million dollars. Is there anything from preventing this from happening?

 

[Curufinwe]

Stuff like that has happened a lot in Australian rugby league. Back in 2002 the top team in the league were kicked out of the competition for cheating the salary cap.

http://www.nrl.com/history-of-nrl-salary-cap-breaches/tabid/10874/newsid/58361/default.aspx

Curufinwe has been saying this for months now. Probably longer.

True. But for a longer time I wasn't aware of Option 2 and insisted that the Flyers had to be under the cap including Pronger's hit at the end of training camp no matter what.

 

[CanadianFlyer88]

I have another question about this. And i guess this is true for all sports. But what if a player signs a team friendly deal during the course of his play, and then ed snider sells him his house for lets say 1 dollar. Or he is hired as a scout to the the tune of 4 million dollars. Is there anything from preventing this from happening?

There are other items in scetion 26 of the CBA, but this is one example:

26.2 Undisclosed Terms and Revenues.
A Club (directly or indirectly through a "Club Actor," i.e., any owner, shareholder, Club
Affiliated Entity, the NHL or third party acting at the behest of a Club) and a Player (directly or indirectly through a "Player Actor," i.e., his Certified Agent or any other individual, any entity, or the NHLPA, acting on behalf of the Player) may not, at any time, enter into undisclosed agreements of any kind, express or implied, oral or written, or promises, undertakings, representations, commitments, inducements, assurances of intent, or understandings of any kind involving consideration of any kind to be paid, furnished or made available or guaranteed to the Player, or Player Actor, by the Club or Club Actor either prior to, during, or after the term of the Player's SPC.

Obviously every professional sports league has to have clauses that prevent circumvention of their salary rules.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

I think this goes to show that Hextall is in no way handcuffed in any trade talks he has with any teams involving Grossman or VLC, and further is adding to the roster to show that. Is it possible wefinally have a GM that understands the rules and dynamics of the CBA? lol

I don't think Hextall wants to trade Grossmann or he's holding out for more value opposed to he can't like Vinny.

Grossmann's signed for 2 more years at $3.5M & has a modified NTC, if Hextall wanted to unload him tomorrow for a 5th rounder or something small he would find a taker.

 

[BernieParent]

I have another question about this. And i guess this is true for all sports. But what if a player signs a team friendly deal during the course of his play, and then ed snider sells him his house for lets say 1 dollar. Or he is hired as a scout to the the tune of 4 million dollars. Is there anything from preventing this from happening?

"Oh, dear, I seem to have left that briefcase filled with money at the Poile residence. Whatever will I do?"

 

[markzab]

Stuff like that has happened a lot in Australian rugby league. Back in 2002 the top team in the league were kicked out of the competition for cheating the salary cap.

http://www.nrl.com/history-of-nrl-salary-cap-breaches/tabid/10874/newsid/58361/default.aspx



True. But for a longer time I wasn't aware of Option 2 and insisted that the Flyers had to be under the cap including Pronger's hit at the end of training camp no matter what.

Same here. Option 2 is what I was interested in seeing. I bet a lot of people on these boards, Flyers and other, didn't know about this. I take it as good news.

 

[FlyersFan61290]

I have another question about this. And i guess this is true for all sports. But what if a player signs a team friendly deal during the course of his play, and then ed snider sells him his house for lets say 1 dollar. Or he is hired as a scout to the the tune of 4 million dollars. Is there anything from preventing this from happening?

There's stuff in place to prevent this. Also, in everyday life there's a thing called capital gains which work to prevent tax circumvention.

 

[GKJ]

Actually guys, take a look at the article BSH just put out this morning...

http://www.broadstreethockey.com/2014/7/3/5865615/flyers-salary-cap-pronger-ltir

We may have been wrong all along. And what they're saying about adding as close to Pronger's cap hit as possible befotre the start of the season may be what's been going on over the past 2 days with all these minor contracts we've been seeing. Real interesting read...



(The last 2 large titled sections are the ones that interest us most if you're in a rush and can't read the whole thing.)

That's how it's always been.


LTIR is not a get-out-of-jail-free card

 

[markzab]

Never said I thought it was.

 

[GKJ]

Never said I thought it was.

I know, but a lot of people assume it is.