QMJHL To ban fighting

Ferda11

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So what happens when you can no longer fight after a dirty hit to a teammate? Do you retaliate with another dirty hit of your own? See where I'm going with this? This just opens up a whole other issue that in my opinion, is far more dangerous then a fight. They'll be taking body checking out of the game at this rate. Brutal.
 
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donjohnson

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They'll be taking body checking out of the game at this rate. Brutal.
Isn't that what the Canadian Sports Minister was pushing during Covid? I may not be remembering all of the details but I thought the minister was holding the OHL season hostage...get rid of fighting you can have a season was the perceived deal on the table if I'm remembering correctly.
 

Canadian Game

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So what happens when you can no longer fight after a dirty hit to a teammate? Do you retaliate with another dirty hit of your own? See where I'm going with this? This just opens up a whole other issue that in my opinion, is far more dangerous than a fight. They'll be taking body checking out of the game at this rate. Brutal.
Agreed. It wouldn’t be surprising to see an increase in other dirty plays like slew-foots and cross-checks to faces. Even worse, I’d bet the risk increases of players losing their mind in the heat of the moment and doing something drastic like the Bertuzzi/Moore and McSorley/Brashear incidents.

I think fights where both players are willing participants are fine. However, I would have no problem with stiffer penalties/suspensions for instigators.
 

Kingpin794

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So what happens when you can no longer fight after a dirty hit to a teammate? Do you retaliate with another dirty hit of your own? See where I'm going with this? This just opens up a whole other issue that in my opinion, is far more dangerous then a fight. They'll be taking body checking out of the game at this rate. Brutal.
Start suspending players for 15-20 games for truly dirty plays. Doubt teams are gonna hand roster spots to players that miss big chunks of games just to be a dick. The NHL already values skill over anything.

Even if no rule ever goes in place in the OHL, it will just be the natural course that no one will fight anymore.
 

NordiquesForeva

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Based on the article, it sounds like the Q is mainly making the change because they are being forced by the Quebec gov, and the gov will step in if nothing is done.

Wishing the Q to go into more financial trouble while their hands are tied is pretty ridiculous.

Interestingly Enrico Ciccone, a tough NHL heavyweight in the 1990s, is an MLA in the Quebec legislature and has been pushing on this for a while. His thinking on fighting has clearly evolved with the game over the past few decades, and doesn't want to see teenagers fight other teenagers (particularly 16/17-year olds fighting 19/20-year olds).

So what happens when you can no longer fight after a dirty hit to a teammate? Do you retaliate with another dirty hit of your own? See where I'm going with this? This just opens up a whole other issue that in my opinion, is far more dangerous then a fight. They'll be taking body checking out of the game at this rate. Brutal.

Where the "game" (broadly defined) is now, and where it is going (and needs to go, imo) is that the team on the receiving end of the hit takes the 2-minute or 5-minute PP and "retaliates" by scoring goals on the PP. Obviously proper officiating becomes even more necessary to get the calls on the "dirty" hits correct, including video replay. With that, (longer) suspensions for dirty plays - head shots, slew foots, hits from behind, attempts to injure. The players will change their behaviour to give their teams the best chance of winning games and maximize their own personal peformance. It wouldn't surprise me if the discussion now turns to having penalized players serve the full 2-minute penalty instead of having penalties end when the other team scores on the PP (this was a rule originally put in place in the 1950s, I believe to help stifle Montreal's PP production).

Fighting will take longer to remove from the NHL, but it will happen. Fighting after a clean check is already garnering a lot of discussion at the GM meetings, and I suspect referees will impose the instigator rule a lot more going forward. Not so much a problem when someone like Trouba willingly answers the bell after a big hit (like after the Kadri hit and Dube fight a month or so ago), but there is a problem when someone less interested in or able to fight has to answer the bell for a clean hit. We'll see more instigator penalties called, perhaps even increasing the instigator penalty to 4 or 5 minutes in the second (non-Trouba) scenario. The rule is already on the books, it just needs to be enforced.

How much do we talk about head shots now, compared to even 5 or 10 years ago? Not nearly as much, The players evolve and their behaviour evolves. The players aren't stupid - they want to maximize their performance and compensation, and help their teams win. They also don't want to be the victim of dirty plays and understand the boundaries of good hockey. Hockey is a much different game than it was even 10 years ago imo.
 
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Otto

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Agreed. It wouldn’t be surprising to see an increase in other dirty plays like slew-foots and cross-checks to faces. Even worse, I’d bet the risk increases of players losing their mind in the heat of the moment and doing something drastic like the Bertuzzi/Moore and McSorley/Brashear incidents.

I think fights where both players are willing participants are fine. However, I would have no problem with stiffer penalties/suspensions for instigators.
Everything you mentioned is suspension worthy. I seriously doubt you see an increase in these sorts of incidents
 

OHLTG

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I do support the change because there is no reason for a 16 year old to be fighting a 20 year old, in the real world you could get 10 years in prison for that.

In real world, you'd get in trouble for shooting a puck at someone or running and checking them through the glass. Real life and sports are tough to compare in this situation.

Also... how often do 16-year-olds fight 20-year-olds? If it happens, chances are they're both willing. If they're not, then there are more penalties thrown into the mix. Let's not act like 20-year-olds are jumping 16-year-olds with no consequences (this argument has come up multiple times over the years, not just here).
 
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bobber

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The fight ban was discussed last night on a sports channel. Forget the person's handle but he said the Quebec Minister of Sports will ban fighting if the league fails to do it. On a more serious note someone brought up the issue of refs complaining about the rise in abuse of referees and how it is getting out of hand. After which there was a tongue in cheek comment made that the complaints were coming from a ref named Blind Sonofabitch. Kidding of course:) Sounds like a bit from This Hour Has 22 Minutes.
 
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OMG67

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Setting the QMJHL aside, the reality is the game has been evolving now for a couple decades. The NHL had a very bad image. IT had seriously stunted growth. While the NBA, MLB and NFL grew in leaps and bounds through the 90’s and onward, the NHL stagnated.

Gary Bettman came in and grew the game. Expanded into new markets and exposed the game to more untraditional markets. Those markets also developed a tidy National TV market so larger networks could play national games and not feel certain markets would not be interested.

The key element to cleaning up the image was to get rid of needless fighting. I think most recognize that fighting may be an element never to have completely gone but staged fights and goonery needed to be a thing of the past if the NHL were going to sell the product as family friendly and capture a national audience in the USA.

Generally speaking, I think Bettman has done an admirable job. NHL hockey is now a $6bil annual revenue sport. There is still room to grow. The NBA is around $10bil annually. MLB is around $9.5bil annually.

The NHL is moving toward a skill game where that skill is on display. The players that sell the sport are the skilled players. The NHL will continue to focus on that.

Additionally, there are also areas of player protection to consider. Although fighting isn’t a major contributor to player hazard and injury, it is a low hanging fruit for people to focus on. IF you can’t handle the low hanging fruit, how can you handle the more complex changes required to enhance player safety? I think that is a reasonable question.

As much as fighting has a place in hockey, its emphasis has shrunk immensely. It will continue to shrink. Additionally, we see les violence from a collision perspective as well. We do see some bad hit from aggressive plays but even those incidents have been reduced. Gone are the days of Scott Stevens targeting heads, or other players blindsiding players. Players need to keep their head up for their own safety but it is now ont he agressor to ensure the hits they make are not blindside hits.

Within 10 years, we will rarely see a Fight. We will see tight checking but probably not thunderous hits. Defensive Systems have reduced the opportunities for thunderous hits anyway. The game will rely on skill and speed for scoring and strong team positional play for defence. That is where the game is going and that is what the surge in revenue has come from.

Worrying about fighting rules in the CHL is meaningless. IMO, it needs to be the same across all leagues. You can’t have interleague games where a team like Ottawa plays a team like Gatineau and have different rules for fighting.

Sports evolve and this is hockey’s evolution. Some may like it and some may not but the game is growing and as long as the game is growing,t he evolution will continue. For every one fan that stops waiting because of evolution, there are two that start Watching.
 
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rve24

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i know this isn't a popular opinion... BUT...

fighting is dumb at any level. how many NHL enforcers have we lost to suicide and substance abuse? its a bush league part of the game and when it's inevitably snuffed out I think the game of hockey will be better for it.

But, but, but if ya cant punch an opponents face the league will deteriorate into chaos lol. It doesnt deter cheap shots as defendants say. Ya wanna see fights watch boxing or MMA........trained, controlled, properly officiated, regulated.......

Football is a violent, aggressive sport........how have they survived, thrived, n sit atop the sports food chain in NA with out being able to fight? And take revenge for late QB hits, head shots, low blocks........hhhmmmm

Fihhting didnt stop alot of vicious stick work n head shots I grew up seeing in the 70s/80s and highlights from earlier.

A team can defend itself, stand up, push back without fighting.
 

rve24

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Agreed. It wouldn’t be surprising to see an increase in other dirty plays like slew-foots and cross-checks to faces. Even worse, I’d bet the risk increases of players losing their mind in the heat of the moment and doing something drastic like the Bertuzzi/Moore and McSorley/Brashear incidents.

I think fights where both players are willing participants are fine. However, I would have no problem with stiffer penalties/suspensions for instigators.

Those 2 incidents happened when "policing" or "fighting" if you will was more mainstream so not sure how thst helps support no fighting will lead to more cheap shots, as it did nothing to prevent the "dirty plays" if you will.....

And in the Bertuzzi gross incident he didnt fight a willing combatant (did Moore not alreafy fight that game to answer the stupid code?)
So at that point its Bert only committing assault even if one supports the archaic "code" which again does nothing to prevent cheap shots.
 

bobber

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As I mentioned previously we all watch the World Juniors. Their is no fighting in that tourney. It's fast exciting hockey. I doubt there is a real need to over haul the rule book and change the game even more. The rules are in place to police the game. Even if they banned fighting coaches and fans will still bitch about calls a hundred years from now if we haven't blown ourselves into space by then. Even in non fighting sports players, coaches and fans all bitch about refs. That will never change. Just look above at teams that lost last night. I am sure the refs were the cause of losses in a couple of contests. ;)
 
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Canadian Game

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Those 2 incidents happened when "policing" or "fighting" if you will was more mainstream so not sure how thst helps support no fighting will lead to more cheap shots, as it did nothing to prevent the "dirty plays" if you will.....

And in the Bertuzzi gross incident he didnt fight a willing combatant (did Moore not alreafy fight that game to answer the stupid code?)
So at that point it’s Bert only committing assault even if one supports the archaic "code" which again does nothing to prevent cheap shots.
I didn’t say he did. I used his and the McSorley examples of where players did something dumb in the heat of the moment. Without fights, I wouldn’t be surprised if there is an increase in incidents where players do something dumb in the heat of the moment, whether it’s more slewfoots, spears, or worse (like the examples I provided).

As for Moore already fighting, I don’t recall if he did either. He could have but I’m talking about Bertuzzi sucker punching Moore from behind and forcing him into the ice.
 

rve24

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I didn’t say he did. I used his and the McSorley examples of where players did something dumb in the heat of the moment. Without fights, I wouldn’t be surprised if there is an increase in incidents where players do something dumb in the heat of the moment, whether it’s more slewfoots, spears, or worse (like the examples I provided).

As for Moore already fighting, I don’t recall if he did either. He could have but I’m talking about Bertuzzi sucker punching Moore from behind and forcing him into the ice.


Gotcha. I understand now.

I dont think fighting is an effective control to prevent cheap shots in hockey or unneccessary antics.

Its all good. I know many who love the fights and think it curbs incidents ect..... It makes no sense to me based on watching hockey since late 70s.
 
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Purple Phart

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Does anyone know how "break dancing" originated ???
It's my understanding that this practice originated as a competition by members of street gangs who wanted an alternative to fighting. Think of the moves possible, if this were conducted on ice. While it might not have the same appeal as 2 combatants punching or wrestling, one can argue that it's a safer method of resolving disputes.:banana::devdance::pickle::banana:
 
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rve24

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Now we are onto something Purple!
It worked at the end of Slap Shot for Ned, no?
A little strip tease lol
 
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moose311

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Setting the QMJHL aside, the reality is the game has been evolving now for a couple decades. The NHL had a very bad image. IT had seriously stunted growth. While the NBA, MLB and NFL grew in leaps and bounds through the 90’s and onward, the NHL stagnated.
Well the NHL was red hot in the summer of 1994, and the NBA was stagnant. Then the NHL shot itself in the foot with the lockout. Then the trap came, and rather than figure out how to get rid of it and make the game exciting, Bettman fiddled while the league burned. Way too much praise for Bettman in this post - anyone competent would've grown the game much better.
 
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OMG67

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Well the NHL was red hot in the summer of 1994, and the NBA was stagnant. Then the NHL shot itself in the foot with the lockout. Then the trap came, and rather than figure out how to get rid of it and make the game exciting, Bettman fiddled while the league burned. Way too much praise for Bettman in this post - anyone competent would've grown the game much better.

That is a tough criticism. The NHL went through a deep expansion. Five teams in three seasons. I will argue that the expansion draft rules sucked and made it tough for the expansion teams which likely precipitated the trapping to remain competitive. But, the NHL had a priority of getting into TV friendly markets in an effort to legitimize their goal of National coverage through the USA. So, that needed to be their primary focus. Second focus needed to be cost certainty and parity. On ice product unfortunately took a bit of a dip but it was only for a short period of time.

A stronger expansion draft would have helped but hindsight is 20-20.

Then another four team expansion over three seasons started that whole process over again.

If the NHL had have remained how it was in the 80’s before Bettman came on board, the league would have been a joke. It was pretty much a side show.
 

OMG67

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Betman's influence. Might as well have the players tap-dance at center ice to settle any disputes. ******* ridiculous objective..

The NHL was a shit show prior to Bettman. Like it or not, that is a reality. It was ranked behind Truck and Tractor pulls as far as sports popularity were concerned.

Very popular in Canada for sure but other than a couple small pockets in the USA, it was a niche sport.

You can argue that maybe someone else could have done better than Bettman but no one can suggest for a second that the sport is not more mainstream and legitimate. It has expanded by 50% from a total teams perspective. The grass roots participation in hockey in the USA has experience exponential growth. That alone has expanded the talent pool available to fill teams with quality talent.

It has grown to a $6bil property annually. Most teams have managed to stay financially viable through that growth.

They now have multiple National TV Contracts. There is a strong International presence. The business of hockey has never been close to as strong as it is now.

Hockey needed to evolve and it has. As a spectator, do I prefer the 80‘S? Yes. But, recognizing the players are bigger, stronger, and faster, we need to recognize that the league needs to change from a player safety perspective. Overall, I think they have done a pretty good job. Through all of that, Gary Bettman has manned the ship. You have to give him credit for leading the NHL through that much needed change.
 
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Race Dawg

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The NHL was a shit show prior to Bettman. Like it or not, that is a reality. It was ranked behind Truck and Tractor pulls as far as sports popularity were concerned.

Very popular in Canada for sure but other than a couple small pockets in the USA, it was a niche sport.

You can argue that maybe someone else could have done better than Bettman but no one can suggest for a second that the sport is not more mainstream and legitimate. It has expanded by 50% from a total teams perspective. The grass roots participation in hockey in the USA has experience exponential growth. That alone has expanded the talent pool available to fill teams with quality talent.

It has grown to a $6bil property annually. Most teams have managed to stay financially viable through that growth.

They now have multiple National TV Contracts. There is a strong International presence. The business of hockey has never been close to as strong as it is now.

Hockey needed to evolve and it has. As a spectator, do I prefer the 80‘S? Yes. But, recognizing the players are bigger, stronger, and faster, we need to recognize that the league needs to change from a player safety perspective. Overall, I think they have done a pretty good job. Through all of that, Gary Bettman has manned the ship. You have to give him credit for leading the NHL through that much needed change.
With any leader you judge that person their performance. Betman has done a lot to expand the game yes but there are negatives. Granted youth have picked up the game south of the border which is great but we don't need to evolve in removing fighting from the game. I want more crackdowns on stickwork TBH and allow the odd scrap to settle some scores.
 

OMG67

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With any leader you judge that person their performance. Betman has done a lot to expand the game yes but there are negatives. Granted youth have picked up the game south of the border which is great but we don't need to evolve in removing fighting from the game. I want more crackdowns on stickwork TBH and allow the odd scrap to settle some scores.
As the game evolves to a talent and skill games, the player safety increases organically. Generally speaking, dirty play (as opposed to chippy play) has decreased at the same rate as fighting.

If you were right then dirty hits would be up as fights go down. That’s not the case.

Stick work does cause some injury but not to the same degree as heavy body contact.
 

Race Dawg

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As the game evolves to a talent and skill games, the player safety increases organically. Generally speaking, dirty play (as opposed to chippy play) has decreased at the same rate as fighting.

If you were right then dirty hits would be up as fights go down. That’s not the case.

Stick work does cause some injury but not to the same degree as heavy body contact.
Nothing wrong with heavy hits. As long as they are clean. Watched the Sens vs Toronto tonight and no fights but lots of stick work. To each their own IMO...
 

OMG67

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Nothing wrong with heavy hits. As long as they are clean. Watched the Sens vs Toronto tonight and no fights but lots of stick work. To each their own IMO...
Lessor of two evils…..

I like heavy hits too but the blindside hits are pretty much gone. Heavy hits from behind mostly gone. Head injuries down. Star players staying in the lineup more.

Gradually the stick work will go down. Chippy play will stay. But showcasing the overall speed and skill is where the league is going because the money demands it. The league will follow the $$$$$

Bettman represents the owners, not the fans. Owners make significant investments. Bettman has increased the values of their teams. He’s done his job admirably.
 
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