PWHPA, Billie Jean King & The Mark Walter Group working to create a new women's pro hockey league.

PlayersLtd

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You are conveniently looking past the biological determinism that some women's sports face when it comes to producing entertainment that people deem competitive.
For example, tennis has been one of the women's sports, if not the women's sport, that has enjoyed the most frequent exposure and lucrative avenues thanks to the joint slams. Who knows where they would be without them? The WTA still has to subsidize the women's brackets of many tournaments because the organizers can't make money . A few years ago, there was a report on Wimbledon where an insider explained how the executive suites were always far less attended when women were in action, and she could hear derogatory comments all the time about their standard of play, suggesting that the bundling of the women's bracket with the men's one was the only thing giving it any major event value. How long is too long when it comes to making a women's sport viable? Probably never too long for most women's sports enthusiasts, when an agenda based on humanistic beliefs is the impetus for most discussions on the topic.


I do agree that the PWHPA stabbed Dani Rylan in the back, but I strongly doubt that they incensed the NHL by doing that.

To me, it seems like the NHL never liked Dani, with her overt piggybacking on the their brands like the Lady Isobel Cup, and outright saying she had chosen team colors and themes to get them purchased by the NHL. When they had the women's game at the Winter Classic, originally they blackballed her entirely in favor of the CWHL, and it's only after Dani complained that they made the NWHL a part of it. They couldn't bash her publicly due to the initial goodwill behind her venture and women's sports in general. She started it all but she was too reckless and the presentation of the product was always a bit off even taking into account the limited resources. Without her, none of this would have happened, but it could not really happen with her either. I think they wanted her to go away, and her departure of PHF may partly have been a nudge to the NHL.
I'm happy to learn more from what you know but when I say that the PWHPA burned a bridge with the NHL it was by syphoning the NWHL players into their strike and Pegula ceasing his involvement in that league immediately after.

That was ground zero for the war and it kicked the legs out from under women's hockey. They had access to the NHL BOG through the Pegulas and a committed owner that was willing to test and demonstrate the model. It was everything that people are now saying women's hockey needs, at least for one team (Buffalo) and I suspect that the squabbling that shot it in the foot was not looked highly upon.

Yes Dani Ryan was toxic to any relationship with the NHL but the Pegula's pumped up the Beauts under her tenure so in that regard progress was still being made despite her. Am I omitting some details and the Pegula's withdrew partially because of her antics?
 

masa2009

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I think the NHL was in on the PWHPA lobbying with the Pegulas to drop the Beauts. Either they were tacitly in approval or they helped it happen outright. Didn't the Devils kick out the Riveters from their training complex at the same time? Strange coincidence. That's a lot of influence wielded by the PWHPA all of a sudden.
 

KevFu

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You are conveniently looking past the biological determinism that some women's sports face when it comes to producing entertainment that people deem competitive.

What you type there is something that I believe to be a ticking clock. There is a SIZEABLE percentage of the population that will never give a ___ about women's sports.

There's also a sizeable section of human population who tacitly accept that there's a women's division of sport just like there's a men's division of sport. And the people in the "IDGAF" group are a lot older than the people who accept, and the numbers on that tilt more every day in favor of the group acknowledging women play, too.

I have zero judgement for people who think that women's sports just aren't as good as men's sports. I'm a women's sports advocate and agree with that position. As a pragmatist, I just don't see why that view matters at all. Like, men vs women, the men are going to win. But women's sports can make A LOT OF MONEY, playing women's sports. And I'd like to be an investor in women's sports because I can't afford to invest in men's sports as that ship has sailed.

I do agree that the PWHPA stabbed Dani Rylan in the back, but I strongly doubt that they incensed the NHL by doing that.

To me, it seems like the NHL never liked Dani...

Eh, the NHL was in their position no matter what their opinion of HER was. And the exact same things you list could be taken as "that's a problem for us" OR "Respect, that was savvy."

I think the NHL was in on the PWHPA lobbying with the Pegulas to drop the Beauts. Either they were tacitly in approval or they helped it happen outright. Didn't the Devils kick out the Riveters from their training complex at the same time? Strange coincidence. That's a lot of influence wielded by the PWHPA all of a sudden.

Yeah, NHL teams seemed to step back from women's pro hockey at the same time. It was like there was a convo of "What's best?" and the NHL folks decided the same thing.

The NHL wants to promote women's pro hockey. It's in their best interest. But the best interest of a women's pro hockey league is an NHL-backed, WNHL instead of an independent league. Everyone knows it. But the NHL can't act unless there's no women's league and they must make one.
 

joelef

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Nov 22, 2011
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It's crazy. An independent women's league is going to get no where, just like the 3-5 others before them haven't gotten anywhere. The best bet for a sustainable women's hockey league is the NHL. Not for a "subsidy" but for investment insurance and cost reduction.

It's NO DIFFERENT than the 3 to 7 attempts at a second football league; or the WNBA. Or ANY start-up.

It's a simple ratio of revenue to costs... there's no way for the players to be full-time athletes for a start-up league. There's no reason for TV to invest in a league that operates at such low cost it could all go belly-up tomorrow. So what you have is a small-time operation with small-time risk that no one will back; and you can't make any inroads before all the best players have to quit and get a real job or be broke and homeless.


The NHL doesn't NEED to "subsidize" a women's league. The NHL doesn't need to GIVE one dime of money to a WNHL and it could aide the WNHL into being a success.

Because the NHL in a unique position of having in place everything a HOCKEY LEAGUE NEEDS already. Just let the WNHL use it. For free. In select NHL -- or AHL markets where the team is owned by the NHL team -- just treat a WNHL team like a college athletics department treats the women's basketball team.

That eliminates 75% of non-player costs for the WNHL. No arena rent, no cost for practice time, no athletic trainer expenses; make the players employees of the NHL club who's practice facility they train/play at and cover them under NHL teams' insurance. The players don't have to buy their own gym membership or pay to sharpen their own skates.

The WNHL would be on the hook for PAYROLL, equipment and travel, and that's it. That alone would allow the WNHL to pay salaries where the players can be HOCKEY PLAYERS as an occupation, and not have to also be something else to afford their lives.

With expenses at the bare minimum and players paid a full-time wage, and the NHL committing to THAT relationship, then investors have very limited risk. Teams won't suddenly find themselves with no where to play or go bankrupt mid-season. So now, it's a decent investment.

The marketing arm of the teams and league can support and aide the league as well. The only "subsidy" necessary would be staffing: NHL team employees serving roles for the WNHL team, like the marketing, equipment, athletic training/medical staffs would need to add an additional person or two to cover 2 teams instead of 1.


The WNBA started with NBA owners owning teams and treating them like college sports treat women's basketball teams. Same organization, just different set of standings. All of you "subsidy freaks" should look at the WNBA.

The WNBA now is looking toward (much needed) expansion. 58% of the league is owned by NON-NBA owners. The five NBA owners don't give up their teams because they don't WANT TO. They've been "Allowed" to divest their WNBA team for a decade or longer. The NBA owners hold on to their WNBA team because they're value-add or because it's worth it to them.

It's a successful, stand alone league now. It's smaller scale, and not without trials and tribulations; but it doesn't NEED an NBA subsidy to exist. It exists on merit now. It's a much smaller enterprise, of course. But that doesn't really matter. Dr. Pepper is never going to be as big as Coke, but Dr. Pepper is doing just fine.
Women have been dating fur years how they need us men for anything so why would they want evil sexist men to subsidize them?
 

KevFu

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So the only way for women's hockey to become successful is for men's hockey to absord much of the cost? Doesn't seem like a success to me.

The gender politics don't matter at all. The NFL could run a men's lacrosse league WAAAAAAAAAY more efficiently than an independent men's lacrosse league could operate. Simply because they own the stadium, have a staff off athletic trainers, equipment staff, media relations and PR and social media people.

Giving 35 people a raise to cover another team is cheaper than hiring the staff for an independent team, and putting another team on the field you own costs nothing.
 

TJL48

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The gender politics don't matter at all. The NFL could run a men's lacrosse league WAAAAAAAAAY more efficiently than an independent men's lacrosse league could operate. Simply because they own the stadium, have a staff off athletic trainers, equipment staff, media relations and PR and social media people.

Giving 35 people a raise to cover another team is cheaper than hiring the staff for an independent team, and putting another team on the field you own costs nothing.

No one us arguing that it wouldn't be cheaper. But it still comes at a cost. Those raises cost money. In your example the extra wear and tear on a field costs money to repair and maintain. Let alone an ice rink.

So yes. The men's league and NHL owners would still be absorbing a portion of the cost.
 

golfortennis1

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What you type there is something that I believe to be a ticking clock. There is a SIZEABLE percentage of the population that will never give a ___ about women's sports.

There's also a sizeable section of human population who tacitly accept that there's a women's division of sport just like there's a men's division of sport. And the people in the "IDGAF" group are a lot older than the people who accept, and the numbers on that tilt more every day in favor of the group acknowledging women play, too.

I have zero judgement for people who think that women's sports just aren't as good as men's sports. I'm a women's sports advocate and agree with that position. As a pragmatist, I just don't see why that view matters at all. Like, men vs women, the men are going to win. But women's sports can make A LOT OF MONEY, playing women's sports. And I'd like to be an investor in women's sports because I can't afford to invest in men's sports as that ship has sailed.



Eh, the NHL was in their position no matter what their opinion of HER was. And the exact same things you list could be taken as "that's a problem for us" OR "Respect, that was savvy."



Yeah, NHL teams seemed to step back from women's pro hockey at the same time. It was like there was a convo of "What's best?" and the NHL folks decided the same thing.

The NHL wants to promote women's pro hockey. It's in their best interest. But the best interest of a women's pro hockey league is an NHL-backed, WNHL instead of an independent league. Everyone knows it. But the NHL can't act unless there's no women's league and they must make one.

On a golf forum I frequent there is always a similar discussion, although the LPGA tour has a better foothold than any women's hockey league. There always seems to be a strong effort to avoid what is a hard truth: women don't watch women's sports. Unless there is a personal connection(family or friend), women who watch the NHL or even CHL now don't seem to show any interest in doing the same with women's sports.

Whether it's nature, poor marketing, kids, whatever, women just don't watch women's sports. If they watched anywhere close to the way men watch sports, this wouldn't be a discussion. There are more women than men, yet the ones who do watch sports want to watch the men. Until you can change *that*, this all pie in the sky thinking. IMHO of course, and sample size =1, but my wife and I watch a lot of cycling. The streaming services have both men's and women's races available. She has no interest in the women's races.
 
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KevFu

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On a golf forum I frequent there is always a similar discussion, although the LPGA tour has a better foothold than any women's hockey league. There always seems to be a strong effort to avoid what is a hard truth: women don't watch women's sports. Unless there is a personal connection(family or friend), women who watch the NHL or even CHL now don't seem to show any interest in doing the same with women's sports.

Whether it's nature, poor marketing, kids, whatever, women just don't watch women's sports. If they watched anywhere close to the way men watch sports, this wouldn't be a discussion. There are more women than men, yet the ones who do watch sports want to watch the men. Until you can change *that*, this all pie in the sky thinking. IMHO of course, and sample size =1, but my wife and I watch a lot of cycling. The streaming services have both men's and women's races available. She has no interest in the women's races.


I do think a lot of that is normalization; and will adapt as TV/streamers promote women's sports more based on economics...

Hardly anyone cared about soccer in the US for a loooooong time, but people younger than Gen X are just used to soccer being a sport in the US.

And because investing in a women's league is very cost-effective for TV/streamers, there's gonna be more and more women's sports on TV until it's so normalized that younger generations don't treat it like "Less Than" they treat it like "an option."
 
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K1984

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On a golf forum I frequent there is always a similar discussion, although the LPGA tour has a better foothold than any women's hockey league. There always seems to be a strong effort to avoid what is a hard truth: women don't watch women's sports. Unless there is a personal connection(family or friend), women who watch the NHL or even CHL now don't seem to show any interest in doing the same with women's sports.

Whether it's nature, poor marketing, kids, whatever, women just don't watch women's sports. If they watched anywhere close to the way men watch sports, this wouldn't be a discussion. There are more women than men, yet the ones who do watch sports want to watch the men. Until you can change *that*, this all pie in the sky thinking. IMHO of course, and sample size =1, but my wife and I watch a lot of cycling. The streaming services have both men's and women's races available. She has no interest in the women's races.

Further to this - I don't know why its an expectation that women that watch sports will automatically give the women's game the time of day.

If you like hockey you're going to want to watch the better product (NHL/AHL/CHL/NCAA/etc,etc) regardless of the gender of the players.
 

joelef

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Further to this - I don't know why its an expectation that women that watch sports will automatically give the women's game the time of day.

If you like hockey you're going to want to watch the better product (NHL/AHL/CHL/NCAA/etc,etc) regardless of the gender of the players.
Because of the false notion of “ sisterhood “. “ women supporting other women “ inclusivity “ . That’s why you keep seeing crappy gender swap remakes of movies.
 

Yukon Joe

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8300 is pretty darn decent I must admit.

The question of course is after the first few games what will attendance be like in mid-February, but the PWHL has certainly gotten off to a strong start.
 

BigBadBruins7708

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Further to this - I don't know why its an expectation that women that watch sports will automatically give the women's game the time of day.

If you like hockey you're going to want to watch the better product (NHL/AHL/CHL/NCAA/etc,etc) regardless of the gender of the players.

This.

It's a simple and unfortunate fact, women's leagues skill wise are noticeably below the MLB/NFL/NHL/NBA, same as the mens minor leagues. And they both have the same issues, poor ratings, struggle with attendance, extremely low pay, etc. It's not a men vs women thing as much as it's a 'best of the best league' vs 'same sport played at a lesser level'.

Hell, just look at how low the salaries are (of non MLB/NHL signed guys) in AAA and the AHL vs the MLB/NHL salaries
 
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Yukon Joe

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This.

It's a simple and unfortunate fact, women's leagues skill wise are noticeably below the MLB/NFL/NHL/NBA, same as the mens minor leagues. And they both have the same issues, poor ratings, struggle with attendance, extremely low pay, etc. It's not a men vs women thing as much as it's a 'best of the best league' vs 'same sport played at a lesser level'.

Hell, just look at how low the salaries are (of non MLB/NHL signed guys) in AAA and the AHL vs the MLB/NHL salaries

You really hurt your credibility when you reference MLB and NFL - there are no women's pro baseball or football leagues (unless you want to talk about the All-American Girls Professional Baseball League, which folded in 1954 and is most famous from the movie A League of their Own).

And I think I would strongly argue that women hockey/basketball players are 'noticeably lower skill wise'. Their skill level is extremely high. What they lack is some of the size/physicality that you get with professional male players - which can be an exciting part of watching the men play.
 
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joelef

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Nov 22, 2011
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On a golf forum I frequent there is always a similar discussion, although the LPGA tour has a better foothold than any women's hockey league. There always seems to be a strong effort to avoid what is a hard truth: women don't watch women's sports. Unless there is a personal connection(family or friend), women who watch the NHL or even CHL now don't seem to show any interest in doing the same with women's sports.

Whether it's nature, poor marketing, kids, whatever, women just don't watch women's sports. If they watched anywhere close to the way men watch sports, this wouldn't be a discussion. There are more women than men, yet the ones who do watch sports want to watch the men. Until you can change *that*, this all pie in the sky thinking. IMHO of course, and sample size =1, but my wife and I watch a lot of cycling. The streaming services have both men's and women's races available. She has no interest in the women's races.
I mean just look at all the female girl power superhero movies there all watched by mostly men
 

abo9

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Hey all, not sure if this is the best thread to ask, but I dont peruse the business forum often.

I saw the news of the PWHL coming together, so did my girlfriend, and looked into tickets as she suggested going to see a game.

Toronto's look sold out, but Montreal's tickets look to be around $31 per game?

If I were to go to Toronto or Montreal, I could go see an AHL game for the same price or cheaper, or one of the various junior (Q or OHL) games.

Wit so much competition and activities to do in a big city, my question to those who are more knowledgeable is:

Are women pro leagues like the PWHL missing the mark by going into big markets like these? I feel like finding spots with little competition would allow them to grow a fanbase more easily? Somewhere like Hamilton with no homebteam currentlyb
(or Brantford if they expect to move back)?

Or even a town outside Montreal that doesnt have a Q team in Quebec (like Pointe Claire/Vaudreuil maybe?)

I know that if it was the only team in town, Id be more tempted to go. But Im not coming out of toronto to go see a game outside the novelty. And if Im in, theres a ton of competition around?

Edit: to be clear, Im saying it sounds like a great missed opportunity all around for both the pwhl teams and smaller cities no? The PWHL teans would have been the center of attention and potentially the biggest thing in town. And in those smaller cities, people complain a lot about having "nothing to do", sounds like it would indeed bring something to the region?
 
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KevFu

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May 22, 2009
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This.

It's a simple and unfortunate fact, women's leagues skill wise are noticeably below the MLB/NFL/NHL/NBA, same as the mens minor leagues. And they both have the same issues, poor ratings, struggle with attendance, extremely low pay, etc. It's not a men vs women thing as much as it's a 'best of the best league' vs 'same sport played at a lesser level'.

Hell, just look at how low the salaries are (of non MLB/NHL signed guys) in AAA and the AHL vs the MLB/NHL salaries

You're not wrong, but who cares? There's a niche for minor league sports, and for women's sports. Who cares if it's not "Big Time?"

The exploitable part of women's sports as a business is that it gets its own classification, which creates a marketing opportunity minor leagues don't have: They're the best women's players in the world; even if the dollar figures of their league are "men's minor league numbers."

There's nothing wrong with that. There's tons of popular things IDGAF about. I'd rather make love to a pile of broken glass that suffer through one of those glee club singing TV/movies. But there's nothing wrong with people trying to make money off those.
 

joelef

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Nov 22, 2011
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You're not wrong, but who cares? There's a niche for minor league sports, and for women's sports. Who cares if it's not "Big Time?"

The exploitable part of women's sports as a business is that it gets its own classification, which creates a marketing opportunity minor leagues don't have: They're the best women's players in the world; even if the dollar figures of their league are "men's minor league numbers."

There's nothing wrong with that. There's tons of popular things IDGAF about. I'd rather make love to a pile of broken glass that suffer through one of those glee club singing TV/movies. But there's nothing wrong with people trying to make money off those.
When you start demanding major league money for being a small national league because of your gender that’s what rubs people the wrong way.
 
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KevFu

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May 22, 2009
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Hey all, not sure if this is the best thread to ask, but I dont peruse the business forum often.

Are women pro leagues like the PWHL missing the mark by going into big markets like these? I feel like finding spots with little competition would allow them to grow a fanbase more easily? Somewhere like Hamilton with no homebteam currentlyb
(or Brantford if they expect to move back)?

Or even a town outside Montreal that doesnt have a Q team in Quebec (like Pointe Claire/Vaudreuil maybe?)

I know that if it was the only team in town, Id be more tempted to go. But Im not coming out of toronto to go see a game outside the novelty. And if Im in, theres a ton of competition around?

Edit: to be clear, Im saying it sounds like a great missed opportunity all around for both the pwhl teams and smaller cities no? The PWHL teans would have been the center of attention and potentially the biggest thing in town. And in those smaller cities, people complain a lot about having "nothing to do", sounds like it would indeed bring something to the region?

This is the Catch-22 with sports as they try and move from outside the mainstream to inside the mainstream.

MLS and WNBA had the same issue. If only 3-5% of people give a damn about what you're doing (soccer in the 90s, women's sports now), the big markets are the places where 3-5% can equal a real audience. And the big markets are your best bet for a TV contract and media revenue.

But you ALSO need to find places where there's a lot less competition, and you're more likely to be embraced as the 2nd or 3rd sport in the market, or only sport in that season.

MLS went to Columbus before anyone else. MLS was also the first major SUMMER teams in Salt Lake, Portland and Vancouver..

WNBA went to Connecticut, spent some time in Tulsa, and also had the Seattle Storm doing really well when the Sonics left.


Buffalo was definitely that kind of market in women's hockey, but didn't get a PWHL team (since the NHL is being hands off).

The other thing that always gets me scratching my head with women's hockey is that Minnesota obviously needs a team, but there's no one near them. Toronto is the closest, and they're like 1500km away!

Madison or Milwaukee should have a team to be a "travel partner" with Minnesota, and be that "This is what we got, we're all in" kind of market.
 
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KevFu

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When you start demanding major league money for being a small national league because of your gender that’s what rubs people the wrong way.

There's a minimum salary required to be a full-time athlete. All the upstart leagues have gone through this: Back when David Beckham came to MLS, some of his teammates were making $12,900.

The real problem isn't that these uppity broads -- like the male soccer players before them -- are DEMANDING something they didn't earn. It's that we considered leagues paying a $12,900 salary PROFESSIONAL and not SEMI-PRO in the first place.

(MLS now pays $84,000 to full time players, and $67,000 to reserves. That's actually professional).

It's not a "Demand," it's the necessary investment to launch the league; the whole "It takes money to make money" thing.


And you can see what investment does: The PWHL has a much higher level of investment than Dani Rylan was capable of (No disrespect to her, she just didn't have the capital of the Walter group), and the marketing and promotion has led to much larger ticket sales/attendance.
 
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Voight

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It's kind of like when Griner was arrested in Russia. You had some people saying "well if she was paid what NBA players are paid she wouldn't have to also play overseas!" ..... there's multiple reasons why the WNBA players make significantly less. Obvious reasons too.
 

joelef

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Nov 22, 2011
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Men’s league like the nll don’t complain about not making as much as nhl players.
 

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