News Article: Puck Prospectus - Pen's bottom 6 (ouch)

[Luigi Lemieux]

Yeah right now there's no doubt the pens are rocking two 4th lines. Neal and Bennett make that problem go away though.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

I think the point is, most team's bottom two lines would look pretty bad if they had three injuries to their forward group.

Bingo.

Our third line is essentially our fourth line and our fourth line is essentially our fifth line right now...and that says nothing for the fact that Chuck Kobasew is stuck on the second line for the time being. Who could have foreseen that injuries to three regular forwards would have a negative impact on our cap ceiling team?

Take three random forwards out of any team in the league and they'll be in a similar situation right now. The cap going down did damage to every cap-spending team's depth. Remember, the Cup champion Blackhawks lost Bolland, Frolik, Stalberg, Carcillo, etc. and had to replace them internally (Emery as well, but he was replaced externally).

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Our problems with the bottom six go beyond the injuries. It's the mindset of what this regime wants in a bottom-six player. Hell, they also want it from their top two wingers for Sid, too!

 

[Shrimper]

The bottom six will look better as soon as Connor is sent down. Without injuries it's fine. With injuries. Meh.

 

[Ogrezilla]

What is the deal with D'Agostini? What is wrong with him? I'm really interested to see what he can do.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

In sum:

"Extra! Extra! The Pens have a bunch of injuries and the injury replacements aren't as good!"

 

[Malkin4Top6Wingerz]

In sum:

"Extra! Extra! The Pens have a bunch of injuries and the injury replacements aren't as good!"

I think the bigger problem is that the third and fourth lines don't have anything in the way of play drivers, so even when everybody's healthy it's never going to be all that great of a group. This is where the losses of Staal, and to an extent Kennedy hurt this team. Sutter just isn't anywhere near the same center as Jordan and it's questionable whether he can anchor a very good third line even with above average linemates.

The article is of course flawed although the author admits as much, but I do think there is plenty to be concerned about. D'Agostini is a couple years removed from his only productive season and really can't be counted on to be an effective player for us. Bennett has shown a lot of promise but is still more or less a rookie with a lot to learn, and maybe isn't all that well suited for a checking line (time will tell). Sutter has been fairly average as a third line center and despite his age has shown very little in the way of improvement. Chances are our top 6 will need to carry us to have success, and even though that's a given with this team to some, it wasn't like that in the past. Whether or not Sid and Geno had big games, we could count on Staal, TK, and Cooke to chip in with a few goals and play a solid shutdown game against the opposing team's best players where they'd usually carry the play. It doesn't matter if we ice a perfectly healthy team now because we no longer have that luxury.

Also disagree heavily with Jaded on the value of third lines. They can have a large impact on games and tilt a series in your favor. It's no coincidence that all of the recent cup winners, and even the teams that lost in the finals all had very good depth in their top 9.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Bennett can drive the play on the third line. Or even better yet, Dupuis.

 

[IcedCapp]

I just wanted to see Iced's head explode.

hahahahahahaha LO<L>O SO FUNNY.

Why don't you extol on me the virtues of signing a 92-year old Mark Eaton so they can let Maatta and Despres develop another year!!!!

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I think the bigger problem is that the third and fourth lines don't have anything in the way of play drivers, so even when everybody's healthy it's never going to be all that great of a group. This is where the losses of Staal, and to an extent Kennedy hurt this team. Sutter just isn't anywhere near the same center as Jordan and it's questionable whether he can anchor a very good third line even with above average linemates.

The article is of course flawed although the author admits as much, but I do think there is plenty to be concerned about. D'Agostini is a couple years removed from his only productive season and really can't be counted on to be an effective player for us. Bennett has shown a lot of promise but is still more or less a rookie with a lot to learn, and maybe isn't all that well suited for a checking line (time will tell). Sutter has been fairly average as a third line center and despite his age has shown very little in the way of improvement. Chances are our top 6 will need to carry us to have success, and even though that's a given with this team to some, it wasn't like that in the past. Whether or not Sid and Geno had big games, we could count on Staal, TK, and Cooke to chip in with a few goals and play a solid shutdown game against the opposing team's best players where they'd usually carry the play. It doesn't matter if we ice a perfectly healthy team now because we no longer have that luxury.

Also disagree heavily with Jaded on the value of third lines. They can have a large impact on games and tilt a series in your favor. It's no coincidence that all of the recent cup winners, and even the teams that lost in the finals all had very good depth in their top 9.

Where we differ is that I think we have the personnel to have a successful and productive 3rd line with Bennett/Sutter/Kobasew/D'Agostini.

Like Ogre said, Bennett can be a play driver. He's already pretty much established that he's the most creative forward on the team outside of Sid and Geno, and if Staal were on the team, the same would probably still be true.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

How did I know that a puck prospectus article couldn't be written without including mention of CORSI at some point in the piece?

On the other hand, I'm not a fan of the Pens' bottom six, either. The Pens' are a top six heavy team, and IMO, will continue to hurt them come playoff time when they play against teams that have superior bottom six players.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I've come to despise the term "corsi numbers."

In any case, I would love to see Shero trade Niskanen for Clifford and then waive Scrabbles and Midget Chris, as well as trading Jeffrey to a team that will use him properly.

At least then, the bottom 6 has more physicality as well as a winger that could put up better offensive numbers with the Pens. Mostly I just want to see a 3rd line of Clifford-Sutter-Bennett and see them start putting up consistent numbers and being a 3rd scoring line.

 

[HandshakeLine]

It's always funny to me when people whose whole schtick is that they "just look at the numbers, man", cherry-pick their data so terribly.

 

[ColePens]

Cap went down and we have injuries.... yes our 4th line and 3rd line are not as deep. I'm sure people have that problem across the NHL.

However give some credit to the level of play Vitale, Adams, and Glass have delivered. They are playing at a great level right now.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Bennett can drive the play on the third line. Or even better yet, Dupuis.

Where we differ is that I think we have the personnel to have a successful and productive 3rd line with Bennett/Sutter/Kobasew/D'Agostini.

Like Ogre said, Bennett can be a play driver. He's already pretty much established that he's the most creative forward on the team outside of Sid and Geno, and if Staal were on the team, the same would probably still be true.

The mere idea of Beau Bennett playing on the third line on a team that has MAYBE 5 players on its entire roster (and that includes our injured D-man and a Finn who tends to disappear like Howard Hughes for months) who can create offense is just so laughable to me.

 

[Shady Machine]

What is the deal with D'Agostini? What is wrong with him? I'm really interested to see what he can do.

I don't think he was injured that bad. He was probably banged up, Pens were at the roster and cap limit and didn't want to lose him so they put him on LTIR. Just speculating of course.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I don't think he was injured that bad. He was probably banged up, Pens were at the roster and cap limit and didn't want to lose him so they put him on LTIR. Just speculating of course.

I think you're exactly right.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I think the bigger problem is that the third and fourth lines don't have anything in the way of play drivers, so even when everybody's healthy it's never going to be all that great of a group. This is where the losses of Staal, and to an extent Kennedy hurt this team. Sutter just isn't anywhere near the same center as Jordan and it's questionable whether he can anchor a very good third line even with above average linemates.

The article is of course flawed although the author admits as much, but I do think there is plenty to be concerned about. D'Agostini is a couple years removed from his only productive season and really can't be counted on to be an effective player for us. Bennett has shown a lot of promise but is still more or less a rookie with a lot to learn, and maybe isn't all that well suited for a checking line (time will tell). Sutter has been fairly average as a third line center and despite his age has shown very little in the way of improvement. Chances are our top 6 will need to carry us to have success, and even though that's a given with this team to some, it wasn't like that in the past. Whether or not Sid and Geno had big games, we could count on Staal, TK, and Cooke to chip in with a few goals and play a solid shutdown game against the opposing team's best players where they'd usually carry the play. It doesn't matter if we ice a perfectly healthy team now because we no longer have that luxury.

Also disagree heavily with Jaded on the value of third lines. They can have a large impact on games and tilt a series in your favor. It's no coincidence that all of the recent cup winners, and even the teams that lost in the finals all had very good depth in their top 9.

I never said that third and fourth lines are unimportant. Just like I never said that draft picks and prospects are unimportant.

What I ACTUALLY said on both topics is that people here have a distorted view of each. Just because your average draft pick has a fairly long shot to the NHL, does not mean that you do not need enough of those to beat that long shot to ice a competitive team. You definately have to. Similarly, your bottom six is important to winning. However, the difference between a great bottom six and an average one is not the chasm some make it out to be. All I am saying is that a bit of perspective is in order. And in a cap world you need to make some choices. In the end the choice between Crosby and Malkin between other top six players and Cooke and Jokinen for instance, well you be the judge which choice is the bigger gap of consequences.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I never said that third and fourth lines are unimportant. Just like I never said that draft picks and prospects are unimportant.

What I ACTUALLY said on both topics is that people here have a distorted view of each. Just because your average draft pick has a fairly long shot to the NHL, does not mean that you do not need enough of those to beat that long shot to ice a competitive team. You definately have to. Similarly, your bottom six is important to winning. However, the difference between a great bottom six and an average one is not the chasm some make it out to be. All I am saying is that a bit of perspective is in order. And in a cap world you need to make some choices. In the end the choice between Crosby and Malkin between other top six players and Cooke and Jokinen for instance, well you be the judge which choice is the bigger gap of consequences.

The third and fourth lines become even more important when third-line types become entrenched in the top six.