Prime Sundin - Forsberg - Alfredsson vs Ovechkin - Malkin - Kovalchuk

[Ben White]

Forsberg's prime Playoff record...Dude was a tank in the playoffs when on the ice

1996 playoffs - Forsberg scores over 20p, but Sakic was better and deserved the CS.
1997 playoffs - 17p in 2 rounds, however detroit got the best of Colorado. Forsberg suffered injury vs edmonton.
1998 playoffs - Forsberg off to a great start vs edmonton, but Avs lost.
1999 playoffs - Has league leading 24p in 3 rounds, got a serious shoulder injury by richard matvichuck, avs loses in round 3 game 7. Safe to say that Forsberg was the CS winner here if colorado gotten through.
2000 playoffs - Avs loses to dallas again in round 3, everyone including Sakic was playing terrible. Forsberg leads team with 16p.
2001 playoffs Forsberg scores series deciding OT goal vs canucks, plays like a man possessed in the infamous kings series. Andy Murray calls Forsberg a human robot on ice. He is the leading scorer after 2 rounds. suffers a spleen injury in wait for round 3. Pretty sure Forsberg would had walked away with the CS in this one.
2002 playoffs Forsberg scores league leading 27p in 3 rounds, but suffers game7 defeat vs Detroit. Once again Forsberg was the CS favorite if they went to the finals.

This. I’ll have to refer to this post later on.

 

[authentic]

Forsberg's prime Playoff record...Dude was a tank in the playoffs when on the ice

1996 playoffs - Forsberg scores over 20p, but Sakic was better and deserved the CS.
1997 playoffs - 17p in 2 rounds, however detroit got the best of Colorado. Forsberg suffered injury vs edmonton.
1998 playoffs - Forsberg off to a great start vs edmonton, but Avs lost.
1999 playoffs - Has league leading 24p in 3 rounds, got a serious shoulder injury by richard matvichuck, avs loses in round 3 game 7. Safe to say that Forsberg was the CS winner here if colorado gotten through.
2000 playoffs - Avs loses to dallas again in round 3, everyone including Sakic was playing terrible. Forsberg leads team with 16p.
2001 playoffs Forsberg scores series deciding OT goal vs canucks, plays like a man possessed in the infamous kings series. Andy Murray calls Forsberg a human robot on ice. He is the leading scorer after 2 rounds. suffers a spleen injury in wait for round 3. Pretty sure Forsberg would had walked away with the CS in this one.
2002 playoffs Forsberg scores league leading 27p in 3 rounds, but suffers game7 defeat vs Detroit. Once again Forsberg was the CS favorite if they went to the finals.

I have to say Forsberg makes this extremely close but Ovechkin and Malkin have been beasts in the playoffs as well. Not as consistently as Forsberg, but it's 2 of them to 1 and that's the difference in this poll.

 

[bobholly39]

Forsberg was leading scorer twice though... The Smythe is very much team dependent

For playoffs I´d take
Forsberg > Malkin > Ovechkin >= Sundin (just cause of the cup really, Sundin gets punished for playing on an inferior team) = Alfredsson (a really good SC performer in his own right) > Kovalchuk

Agree with former speaker. For playoffs, swedes

I can see taking Forsberg first for playoffs but Malkin peaked higher in playoffs, so it depends.

Also Ovechkin is easy the best player here (career) and Malkin probably #2. Forsberg is close - but neither of the other 2 Swedes are.

Its Russians by default

 

[trentmccleary]

The Russians might score more, but that's not a certainty. The Swedes are definitely better all round players. In a head to head? The Swedes.

Forsberg
Malkin/Ovechkin
Alfredsson/Sundin


Kovalchuk

Sorry statwatchers, Kovalchuk was the worst of these players by a clear margin.

 

[authentic]

I can see taking Forsberg first for playoffs but Malkin peaked higher in playoffs, so it depends.

Also Ovechkin is easy the best player here (career) and Malkin probably #2. Forsberg is close - but neither of the other 2 Swedes are.

Its Russians by default

Peaked higher offensively, and barely considering scoring eras in the playoffs and competition faced (Forsberg played when scoring was lower in the playoffs and against better defensive opponents).

 

[Regal]

to me...
Ovechkin
Malkin

Forsberg
Alfredsson

Kovalchuk
Sundin

Forsberg's a lot closer to Malkin than Alfredsson is to Forsberg

 

[Ben White]

Forsberg's a lot closer to Malkin than Alfredsson is to Forsberg

He’s so close that he is better. There’s nothing solid to back up the claim that Malkin is better than Forsberg.

 

[Regal]

He’s so close that he is better. There’s nothing solid to back up the claim that Malkin is better than Forsberg.

That's ridiculous. There's plenty of argument for Malkin. They're very close and while I tend to prefer Forsberg in his prime, Malkin has been going at a high level for longer at this point.

 

[FOurteenS inCisOr]

Prime Naslund > prime Alfredsson.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Forsberg's prime Playoff record...Dude was a tank in the playoffs when on the ice

1996 playoffs - Forsberg scores over 20p, but Sakic was better and deserved the CS.
1997 playoffs - 17p in 2 rounds, however detroit got the best of Colorado. Forsberg suffered injury vs edmonton.
1998 playoffs - Forsberg off to a great start vs edmonton, but Avs lost.
1999 playoffs - Has league leading 24p in 3 rounds, got a serious shoulder injury by richard matvichuck, avs loses in round 3 game 7. Safe to say that Forsberg was the CS winner here if colorado gotten through.
2000 playoffs - Avs loses to dallas again in round 3, everyone including Sakic was playing terrible. Forsberg leads team with 16p.
2001 playoffs Forsberg scores series deciding OT goal vs canucks, plays like a man possessed in the infamous kings series. Andy Murray calls Forsberg a human robot on ice. He is the leading scorer after 2 rounds. suffers a spleen injury in wait for round 3. Pretty sure Forsberg would had walked away with the CS in this one.
2002 playoffs Forsberg scores league leading 27p in 3 rounds, but suffers game7 defeat vs Detroit. Once again Forsberg was the CS favorite if they went to the finals.

Don't forget to mention the Avs won a cup in 01 with Forsberg playing exactly zero games in the WCF and SCF.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

If it weren’t for Roy and Sakic ,Forsberg would have had 2 himself. Hard not to choose those guys but Forsberg was a playoff beast in his own right

If not for Sakic and Roy, Forsberg wouldn't have any cups. In fact, Sakic and Roy won the cup in 01 with Forsberg playing zero games in the WCF and SCF. Giving him credit for 2 cups when he really shouldn't is already bad enough, but giving him fantasy smythes is next level reaching.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

The Russians are more talented, but I think the Swedes would functionally play better together.

Forsberg is the best playmaker of the group. Alfie can do it all and Sundin's big bod could be a help against Malkin & Ovie.

Kovy and Ovie do the same stuff (extremely well, but it relies on selfish play). Malkin can do it all as well.

Matchup wise...
Foppa covering Malkin is a win for Foppa (IMO).
Sundin on Ovie (win for Ovi, but tough matchup)
Alfie covering Kovy (win for Alfi, but tough again)

"selfish" OV has more top 10 assist finishes than Alfredsson and Sundin combined.

 

[trentmccleary]

Prime Naslund > prime Alfredsson.

Here are two 5 year stretches. The first one completely covers Naslund's prime.

00_04	GP	G	A	Pts	PPG
Naslund	395	191	227	418	1.06
Alfredsson	358	141	217	358	1.00

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

06_10	GP	G	A	Pts	PPG
Alfredsson	373	156	268	424	1.14
Naslund	327	105	135	240	0.73

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Dingo]

Leaving aside guesses at chemistry, its the Russians.

Forsberg, Malkin and Ovechkin are all elite, top of the league, as good as it gets players.

The other three are a notch down.

 

[FOurteenS inCisOr]

Here are two 5 year stretches. The first one completely covers Naslund's prime.

00_04	GP	G	A	Pts	PPG
Naslund	395	191	227	418	1.06
Alfredsson	358	141	217	358	1.00

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

06_10	GP	G	A	Pts	PPG
Alfredsson	373	156	268	424	1.14
Naslund	327	105	135	240	0.73

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I disagree with a random 5 year stretch as “prime.”

Naslund better prime, Alfredsson better career.

 

[Regal]

Here are two 5 year stretches. The first one completely covers Naslund's prime.

00_04	GP	G	A	Pts	PPG
Naslund	395	191	227	418	1.06
Alfredsson	358	141	217	358	1.00

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

06_10	GP	G	A	Pts	PPG
Alfredsson	373	156	268	424	1.14
Naslund	327	105	135	240	0.73

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Pretty sure by prime he means peak couple seasons. Naslund's 65 point '00 isn't relevant to the point he's making. Naslund's 3 year stretch from '02 to '04 is very clearly better offensively than any sustained stretch of Alfredsson's career. You could argue that '04 to '08 Alfredsson is close enough offensively that his defense makes up for it, but your numbers do nothing to argue the point here.

 

[Ben White]

That's ridiculous. There's plenty of argument for Malkin. They're very close and while I tend to prefer Forsberg in his prime, Malkin has been going at a high level for longer at this point.

“High level for longer” doesn’t translate into “better” in my book, granted player A did it long and sustainable enough to prove his level.

Btw, I think I read “prime” somewhere in the OP

 

[Ben White]

Don't forget to mention the Avs won a cup in 01 with Forsberg playing exactly zero games in the WCF and SCF.

And in what possible way is that relevant for this post?? The cup wasn’t even mentioned. The Avs ending up wining a cup without him doesn’t make his contribution lesser in the first two rounds.

 

[trentmccleary]

Pretty sure by prime he means peak couple seasons. Naslund's 65 point '00 isn't relevant to the point he's making. Naslund's 3 year stretch from '02 to '04 is very clearly better offensively than any sustained stretch of Alfredsson's career. You could argue that '04 to '08 Alfredsson is close enough offensively that his defense makes up for it, but your numbers do nothing to argue the point here.

What you're actually saying is that Naslund had one great season in that stretch and others that were good, but completely within striking distance of Alfredsson.

Yr	MN	DA
2000	0.79	1.04
2001	1.04	1.03
2002	1.11	0.91
2003	1.27	1.00
2004	1.08	1.04

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Or if you want to see how impressive those years were for Naslund in another way.

Naslund finished 4th, 5th and 6th in NHL PPG in those three seasons.
In Alfredsson's 04, 06 and 08, Alfredsson finished 3rd, 4th and 9th in NHL PPG.

So please, tell me more about how special Naslund's three seasons were vs a player who matched them, had a great career outside of them and was a way better defensive player.

 

[Ben White]

If not for Sakic and Roy, Forsberg wouldn't have any cups. In fact, Sakic and Roy won the cup in 01 with Forsberg playing zero games in the WCF and SCF. Giving him credit for 2 cups when he really shouldn't is already bad enough, but giving him fantasy smythes is next level reaching.

He would’ve won the smythe in 99 and 02 however had the team played better and with more help from Sakic, very possible also in 01 without the spleen injury as he was on a better pace than Sakic after 2 rounds. So at least in 3 (possibly more) playoff runs he was the best player up until elimination/injury and in 2 he was the best player despite elimination.

 

[Ben White]

"selfish" OV has more top 10 assist finishes than Alfredsson and Sundin combined.

You can have a “selfish” style and still gather a lot of assists that’s how assists works in hockey

 

[Ben White]

Pretty sure by prime he means peak couple seasons. Naslund's 65 point '00 isn't relevant to the point he's making. Naslund's 3 year stretch from '02 to '04 is very clearly better offensively than any sustained stretch of Alfredsson's career. You could argue that '04 to '08 Alfredsson is close enough offensively that his defense makes up for it, but your numbers do nothing to argue the point here.

the 06-10 was also a much higher scoring era than 00-04.

 

[Hisch13r]

You can have a “selfish” style and still gather a lot of assists that’s how assists works in hockey

So he was selfish and still better at creating for his teammates than the unselfish ones. That's a compliment if anything

 

[Ben White]

So he was selfish and still better at distributing than the unselfish ones

Eh no, what I’m saying is that “distributing” is by no means the only way to generate assists in hockey... if you produce more chances (also by shooting), and your line produces more you’ll generally gather more assists.

But I see now that you changed your post. Yeah that’s right, it’s a compliment all right, doesn’t make him any more of a playmaker necessarily or less of a shoot first guy.​

 

[BrindamoursNose]

"selfish" OV has more top 10 assist finishes than Alfredsson and Sundin combined.

Doesn't really prove your point. It just proves that Ovechkin needs to have the puck on his stick, IMO.

I'm not even interpreting that as a BAD thing, but you're coming in all hot so I'm gonna point of that it still supports my point.