Prime Sundin - Forsberg - Alfredsson vs Ovechkin - Malkin - Kovalchuk

[MadLuke]

Was this meant to disprove anything I said?

Winning 2 art ross versus one is more trivia than an argument about being the better player (exact end of any specific season total point ranking is not really important, it is just to have something to follow has fan's), same goes for leading your team in scoring in playoff the year they win he cup versus an other year and winning cups at all.

Those argument for having a better career, not about being the better player.

Forsberg offensive production is really close to Malkin (it is a bit above in raw ppg and among peer) while being one of the 2 way force of is era with some of the best R/on, R/off figure of all time, it is hard to say that Malkin is an obvious tier above him and there is no conversation.

Malkin career should end up being a better one than Forsberg (arguably already is, but Forsberg has is olympic gold stamp moment has well in there and world junior record breaking video games type of stats), that different to which in their prime where the better at playing hockey, Forsberg is a should/would in term of career accomplishment but has a large enough sample size of competitive game to have a good idea at how good he was at hockey.

 

[82Ninety42011]

I think it's a bit of a stretch to say Sundin, Alfredsson and Forsberg would most likely shut down prime Ovechkin, Malkin and Kovalchuk. Infact the most likely case is they just get outplayed and lose because of vastly superior offense.

Just my opinion you could be right but I'm taking the Swedes.

 

[trentmccleary]

2 Centers and a winger are always preferable to 1 Center and 2 wingers when it is close. I would have put Datsyuk in for Kovy to make it a 2 Center winger comparison, and picked the Russians over the Swedes pretty handily. No disrespect to the Swedish trio. But Malkin, Ovie, and Datsyuk. That's a lot of cups, talent, and winning to not pick them.

Datsyuk definitely would been a much better choice here than Kovalchuk and would make this a slam dunk fr the Russian trio.

This is a pretty good analysis, however for this poll if we're imagining them in their prime facing off against each other isn't 7 seasons a little much considering most players here didn't even have primes that long? I think 5 years at most would be a better comparison.

This is the 5 year table and I've added Datsyuk.

I also noticed an error in Ovechkin's ES GA calculation because of the lockout shortened season. It's already been corrected here, but I'll update the previous 7 year table.

Avg GPG	Player	GP	G	Pts	GPG	PPG	ES GA/GP	Player	EA*GP	EA*G	EA*P	EA*PPG	EA*GA/GP	EA*PPG/GA
2.68	Forsberg	66	26	87	0.40	1.32	0.66	Forsberg	66	29	97	1.47	0.74	0.73
2.84	Datsyuk	76	29	86	0.37	1.16	0.56	Datsyuk	76	31	91	1.19	0.59	0.60
2.87	Ovechkin	79	56	108	0.70	1.36	0.80	Ovechkin	79	60	113	1.42	0.83	0.59
2.84	Malkin	71	36	95	0.54	1.34	0.84	Malkin	71	40	105	1.48	0.89	0.59
2.83	Alfredsson	72	33	84	0.46	1.17	0.67	Alfredsson	72	36	88	1.23	0.71	0.52
2.74	Naslund	79	39	86	0.50	1.10	0.69	Naslund	79	44	95	1.21	0.76	0.45
2.92	Sundin	80	38	90	0.48	1.12	0.81	Sundin	80	40	92	1.15	0.83	0.32
2.84	Kovalchuk	79	46	90	0.58	1.14	0.91	Kovalchuk	79	50	96	1.22	0.97	0.25

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Agent Zub]

Datsyuk definitely would been a much better choice here than Kovalchuk and would make this a slam dunk fr the Russian trio.



This is the 5 year table and I've added Datsyuk.

I also noticed an error in Ovechkin's ES GA calculation because of the lockout shortened season. It's already been corrected here, but I'll update the previous 7 year table.

Avg GPG	Player	GP	G	Pts	GPG	PPG	ES GA/GP	Player	EA*GP	EA*G	EA*P	EA*PPG	EA*GA/GP	EA*PPG/GA
2.68	Forsberg	66	26	87	0.40	1.32	0.66	Forsberg	66	29	97	1.47	0.74	0.73
2.84	Datsyuk	76	29	86	0.37	1.16	0.56	Datsyuk	76	31	91	1.19	0.59	0.60
2.87	Ovechkin	79	56	108	0.70	1.36	0.80	Ovechkin	79	60	113	1.42	0.83	0.59
2.84	Malkin	71	36	95	0.54	1.34	0.84	Malkin	71	40	105	1.48	0.89	0.59
2.83	Alfredsson	72	33	84	0.46	1.17	0.67	Alfredsson	72	36	88	1.23	0.71	0.52
2.74	Naslund	79	39	86	0.50	1.10	0.69	Naslund	79	44	95	1.21	0.76	0.45
2.92	Sundin	80	38	90	0.48	1.12	0.81	Sundin	80	40	92	1.15	0.83	0.32
2.84	Kovalchuk	79	46	90	0.58	1.14	0.91	Kovalchuk	79	50	96	1.22	0.97	0.25

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Alfredsson must be one of the most underrated players ever.

Which is crazy considering how much they hype up guys like Toews. Alfredsson did it all. One of the most versatile players in league history.

 

[joe dirte]

Perhaps it would be a closer of you replace the weak link, and make it a poll with forsberg, sundin, and zetterberg.

Ovechkin and malkin are a tough duo to compete with though.

Maybe add a dman. Lidstrom vs..... gonchar? Who would be the best russian dman of the era? Zubov? Maybe markov?

 

[MrOT]

Datsyuk definitely would been a much better choice here than Kovalchuk and would make this a slam dunk fr the Russian trio.



This is the 5 year table and I've added Datsyuk.

I also noticed an error in Ovechkin's ES GA calculation because of the lockout shortened season. It's already been corrected here, but I'll update the previous 7 year table.

Avg GPG	Player	GP	G	Pts	GPG	PPG	ES GA/GP	Player	EA*GP	EA*G	EA*P	EA*PPG	EA*GA/GP	EA*PPG/GA
2.68	Forsberg	66	26	87	0.40	1.32	0.66	Forsberg	66	29	97	1.47	0.74	0.73
2.84	Datsyuk	76	29	86	0.37	1.16	0.56	Datsyuk	76	31	91	1.19	0.59	0.60
2.87	Ovechkin	79	56	108	0.70	1.36	0.80	Ovechkin	79	60	113	1.42	0.83	0.59
2.84	Malkin	71	36	95	0.54	1.34	0.84	Malkin	71	40	105	1.48	0.89	0.59
2.83	Alfredsson	72	33	84	0.46	1.17	0.67	Alfredsson	72	36	88	1.23	0.71	0.52
2.74	Naslund	79	39	86	0.50	1.10	0.69	Naslund	79	44	95	1.21	0.76	0.45
2.92	Sundin	80	38	90	0.48	1.12	0.81	Sundin	80	40	92	1.15	0.83	0.32
2.84	Kovalchuk	79	46	90	0.58	1.14	0.91	Kovalchuk	79	50	96	1.22	0.97	0.25

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

This makes sense. I wasn't a big Alfie fan myself compared to Sundin and peak Näslund but I can understand when it comes to Offense + defense comparisons that he is high on this list.

 

[MrOT]

Perhaps it would be a closer of you replace the weak link, and make it a poll with forsberg, sundin, and zetterberg.

Ovechkin and malkin are a tough duo to compete with though.

Maybe add a dman. Lidstrom vs..... gonchar? Who would be the best russian dman of the era? Zubov? Maybe markov?

Nah, the forwards are close enough by any metrics to not make this a landslide for Sweden having Lidström there.

 

[MrOT]

For me it looks like this:

Better at playing hockey:
Forsberg >= Ovechkin >= Malkin > Sundin > Alfredsson >= Kovalchuk

Better career:
Ovechkin > Malkin >= Forsberg > Sundin > Alfredsson > Kovalchuk

 

[joe dirte]

Nah, the forwards are close enough by any metrics to not make this a landslide for Sweden having Lidström there.

Yeah, it's interesting how much of a lack of elite Dmen Russia has to offer.

 

[joe dirte]

For me it looks like this:

Better at playing hockey:
Forsberg >= Ovechkin >= Malkin > Sundin > Alfredsson >= Kovalchuk

Better career:
Ovechkin > Malkin >= Forsberg > Sundin > Alfredsson > Kovalchuk

I love Forsberg, but the first 5 years in the league, Ovechkin was ridiculous. He was a lethal scoring maching that punished the other team physically. I'm not so sure you can really say Forsberg was better.

 

[authentic]

I love Forsberg, but the first 5 years in the league, Ovechkin was ridiculous. He was a lethal scoring maching that punished the other team physically. I'm not so sure you can really say Forsberg was better.

Ovechkin was significantly better at scoring goals and staying healthy, which are pretty big deals. However there is a legitimate case to be made that head to head in their primes Ovechkin would hold no real advantage, and if it was the playoffs I'm taking my chances with a healthy Forsberg. Forsberg actually has better offensive stats in the playoffs (with less ice time) along with being a better defensive player.

 

[mattihp]

Canadians Lemieux Gretzky whoever
Then Russians
Swedes
Americans
Fins

Woohoo! Ahead of the czechs!

 

[AB13]

Forsberg is superior to Ovechkin, no doubt at all. Ovechkin has more longevity but Forsberg was a better player by quite a margin in his peak. Malkin ahead of Sundin, and Alfredsson ahead of Kovalchuk. Swedes win, although I might be biased.

 

[spiny norman]

Lopsided result.