Pride, Tradition and all that B.S.

[SCORE4]

Pride, Tradition and all that B.S. as quoted by Gerry Cheevers after the Canadiens had beaten the Bruins in 1971.

How many series can Montreal win .... when they are badly outplayed .... outclassed .... basically run over, .... but still find some magical way of coming out the winner?

1971 .... if not for Dryden .... Boston destroys Montreal a minimum of 4-1 .... The Canadiens had NO business winning that series .... out played .... out hit .... out everything ....

Against Chicago in the final .... WHAT???? .... a fluke goal decides it . ....

1973 .... Everything falls into place for another championship ....

1986 .... Another year when everything seems to line up .... and Patrick Roy .... I would have loved to see him face Edmonton ....

1993 .... Are you serious? How did Montreal weasel into this title?

When was it? 2001/02? .... Theodore absolutely robs the Bruins from sure victory after his crappy team deserves nothing less than a complete bi##h slapping .... DaFoe is an even bigger joke in the Bruins net .... (If you outshoot the opposition 3-1 .... you should win the game) ....

The latest series with Washington makes me shake my head. The Capitals should have, and deserved to whip Montreal in 5 games or less. ANOTHER COMPLETELY UNDESERVED VICTORY.

What is it? Has there ever been another team in all of professional sports who have gone on to this level of undeserved success?

DO THEY HAVE A MYSTICAL ABILITY TO WIN GAMES (and even series and championships) THAT THEY HAVE NO BUSINESS EVEN BEING INVOLVED IN?

Click to read more...

 

[Weztex]

ANOTHER COMPLETELY UNDESERVED VICTORY.

There's no such thing as an undeserved best of 7 victory. A team can steal a game, but if the ''better team'' is not able to play like they are and bounce back they don't deserve to win.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

The Capitals deserved jack squat. A team with serious flaws and individuals unwilling to pay the price to win.

Now, I agree with you to an extent with some of the other examples, sans the hyperbole. Montreal certainly had some fortunate circumstances arise over the years. The Esposito whiff in Game 7 in 1971 and Bruins too many men in 1979 are probably the biggest two. Without those stunning blunders by their opponents, Montreal doesn't win those two Cups.

 

[eastcoaster]

1973 .... Everything falls into place for another championship ....

Don't be silly. Montreal finished first overall by 13 points that year, went 12-5 in the playoffs, and they had 11 future hall of famers. They were the best team in the league that season. Perhaps you could explain how things "fell into place."

 

[lextune]

Habs are not going to win it all this year. But we have to admit that they have had more than their fair share of shocking series' victories....

'71 of course.

And '84 jumps to my mind too, they didn't win the Cup, but after they squeaked into the playoffs they beat a powerhouse young Boston team and a superior Quebec team before losing to the two time Champs on the Isle in six games. All of this with a rookie goaltender who had had only four starts before the playoffs began, and he lost all four.
Steve F'ing Penney.....
Penney barely played another season after that and finished his career 35-38-12.

 

[Trottier]

There's no such thing as an undeserved best of 7 victory. A team can steal a game, but if the ''better team'' is not able to play like they are and bounce back they don't deserve to win.

Thank you.

Unfortunate to see the silly extremist reactions posted on the main board by the minute, e.g., Staal is out? Pens are finished!"..."Markov out? Habs should give up!", find its way here.

Habs had "no business being involved in"?

If one can cite 1971, they should know better, based on decades of experience viewing.

 

[Big Phil]

Thank you.

Unfortunate to see the silly extremist reactions posted on the main board by the minute, e.g., Staal is out? Pens are finished!"..."Markov out? Habs should give up!", find its way here.

Habs had "no business being involved in"?

If one can cite 1971, they should know better, based on decades of experience viewing.

Got to agree here. Someone might ask me who I think will win a series. If I am stumped I always say "the better team". Because that's exactly what will happen. 7 game series do not lie, ever! A team can have a bad break and win once, but not 4 times. Last time I checked Halak is part of the team. Montreal earned that victory because they exposed the Caps for the weaknesses they have. Gill blocked a million shots and the Habs were opportunistic when they had their chances (thank Mike Green for that). But no 7 game series is ever a fluke. A shock? A miracle? Yes, but even Glenn Healy had to play out of his mind in 1993 against the Pens, he is part of the team. Would it have been better for the game if the Pens won? Sure it would, but they didnt fair and square.

By the way I think the 1971 Habs get underrated around here. Funny how that happens because while it was an upset against Boston it wasn't exactly like the Bruins were playing the Kansas City Scouts. The Habs had loads of HHOFers on their team and late in the season just got Frank Mahovlich which is why this particular season isn't always reflective of the 24 point gap between the two teams. Dryden helped of course but this team also beat Chicago in 7 games too. Not an easy team to beat either by any stretch of the imagination in case anyone is interested in looking at their roster.

 

[Big Phil]

I agree the Habs have had their share of success and we all know the stories about the "ghosts in the Montreal Forum". But those years you mentioned they deserved it IMO. I won't bother going into details about the 1973 team because your theory on that has already been debunked but all I can say is that only the Detroit Red Wings of 2002 have had as many HHOFers on their team at once. Nuff said.

But I think you fail to mention other times when they've choked. Yes, the Habs don't have a rich history of choking, even to this day, but I'll cite some examples:

1945: The Punch line in full effect, Durnan in net, Bouchard on defense. Amazing how this team lost to the Leafs who basically had Ted Kennedy and a team filled with rookies and sophomores filling in for WWII. After the Pens/Isles, the biggest upset in NHL history IMO

1955: Not saying they should have won, because even if Richard wasn't suspended they would have gone the distance still with Detroit, but their chances were limited once the best goal scorer in the league was out

1961: Again, beaten by another great team, but they had reeled off 5 straight Cups and were shutout in their last two games to Chicago

1967: The Leafs were a seasoned team who knew how to win but they were as old as sin, Montreal wins 5 in a row if they win this

1980-'83: Would Ken Dryden have allowed the Northstars to beat him if he were playing? That was just shocking in 1980. Plus the following 3 playoffs featured seemingly strong Montreal teams who lost to teams they probably shouldn't have. Did Lafleur put Gretzky into his "back pocket" in 1981 or was it the other way around?

There are lots of examples. And even if they caught a break in 1986 and 1993 in years that multiple playoff upsets knocking out top seeded teams, the truth is Montreal had Roy both times and was 7th and 6th in points in the regular season. Not bad.

 

[Big Phil]

I never meant to claim the '73 Canadiens were unworthy of winning The Cup .... what I was suggesting was that between the WHA and expansion raids, the other teams (especially Boston and Chicago) were severely weakened .... therefore paving the way for the Canadiens. (everything fell into place)

The Habs lost J-C Tremblay who was probably the 3rd best defenseman in the NHL at that time and who probably would have his ticket punched to the HHOF if he didn't foolishly bolt to the WHA. Losing him was the equivalent of losing McKenzie AND Sanderson from Boston IMO

Anyone who says Washington was not the better team in the last series is delusional. When 85% of the game is played in your own zone, you have no business winning the game.

I agree with you to an extent. Halak is part of the team too. Without Halak you are right. Montreal is a peewee team next to the Caps and Pens. I'm pretty sure if you strap Bob Gainey to a polygraph he would say the same thing

Despite the Capitals weaknesses, they are a far, far superior team to the Canadiens. Yes, the best team does not always win. How anyone can claim Montreal to be better than Washington is a complete joke. And this is just the latest example.

You hate the Habs right? Join the club. If it makes you feel better you can have comfort in knowing that Jacques Martin will always end up screwing over a good thing. Ask a Sens fan. Ask a Leaf fan. Sure the Caps lost the series by outplaying the Habs by a bigger extent than I have ever seen in a series in NHL history but the Pens have a little more experience and Fleury > Varlamov even though he hasn't played his best. Jacques Martin is doing what he always does. His teams don't forecheck, they sit back and pray for a puck that bounces the right way off the glass. You won't win a 7 game series against the defending champs if you don't even try to score. So relax, they'll be golfing in a week.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

So I guess a goaltender isn't part of the team then. If the Canadiens kept winning every game because Brian Gionta was scoring hat tricks left and right, would you make a similar claim?

The Capitals are a product of the "Nuuuu NHL" mentality. Boston or Philadelphia would have likely eliminated them as well. I guess the Habs got lucky in that they didn't have to face NJ (Brodeur has their number), but that's about it. This example isn't really comparable to 1971 or 1979. This wasn't one single instance of ridiculously good fortune befalling the Habs at a crucial time. The Caps had three chances to bury them. Led by their tunnel-visioned superstar, they blew all three of those chances. In vintage Washington Capital fashion, I might add.

I know the way Halak is playing is likely bringing back Dryden '71/Roy '86 nightmares for you, but I'd be shocked if he actually took them the distance. Of the eight remaining teams, Montreal is the weakest. It would take 3 more upsets, something that is unprecedented up to this point. I know you'll cite all those previous examples of Montreal winning as an example of how things will inevitably fall into place for them, but all those teams were considerably stronger than the current edition. Ovechkin may have let them off the hook, but I'd be stunned if Crosby did the same.

Listen, I'm no Hab lover either, but your panic is unwarranted. Trust me on this one, they're not going to win the Cup. And if I'm wrong...well, there's a first time for everything .

Edit: Well, I guess your post got deleted anyway. Probably for the best, as it truly was of main board quality.

 

[Canadiens1958]

A Few Points........

The Habs lost J-C Tremblay who was probably the 3rd best defenseman in the NHL at that time and who probably would have his ticket punched to the HHOF if he didn't foolishly bolt to the WHA. Losing him was the equivalent of losing McKenzie AND Sanderson from Boston IMO



I agree with you to an extent. Halak is part of the team too. Without Halak you are right. Montreal is a peewee team next to the Caps and Pens. I'm pretty sure if you strap Bob Gainey to a polygraph he would say the same thing



You hate the Habs right? Join the club. If it makes you feel better you can have comfort in knowing that Jacques Martin will always end up screwing over a good thing. Ask a Sens fan. Ask a Leaf fan. Sure the Caps lost the series by outplaying the Habs by a bigger extent than I have ever seen in a series in NHL history but the Pens have a little more experience and Fleury > Varlamov even though he hasn't played his best. Jacques Martin is doing what he always does. His teams don't forecheck, they sit back and pray for a puck that bounces the right way off the glass. You won't win a 7 game series against the defending champs if you don't even try to score. So relax, they'll be golfing in a week.

J.C. Tremblay - 3rd best in the NHL???????? From 1973 - 1979 would have been 4th best on the Canadiens and do not see how he was missed.

McKenzie was a career AHLer who had a spurt with the Bruins but Terry O'Reilly was more than an adequate replacement after 1973, while Derek Sanderson leaving was addition by subtraction. The Cherry era Bruins did not miss him or McKenzie at all.

Jacques Martin eventually manages to beat himself.Brutal when it comes to in game match-ups - saw it yesterday on the first goal, fourth line and all missed their defensive assignments from a faceoff. Often gets caught with the wrong players on in the last 1 1/2 of a period.

His teams look good if they can get the other team to play the "useless ice" game which is what his offense and defense is all about, play the game away from the middle of the ice and take advantage of the rare prime opportumities that arise. Capitals fell for it as did the Penguins yesterday. Leafs with Pat Quinn did not.

 

[Big Phil]

J.C. Tremblay - 3rd best in the NHL???????? From 1973 - 1979 would have been 4th best on the Canadiens and do not see how he was missed.

McKenzie was a career AHLer who had a spurt with the Bruins but Terry O'Reilly was more than an adequate replacement after 1973, while Derek Sanderson leaving was addition by subtraction. The Cherry era Bruins did not miss him or McKenzie at all.

You don't think Tremblay would be about 3rd best in the NHL in 1972 among d-men? I think it's a good argument. He was a first team all-star in 1971 and racked up 57 points in '72 and was a notable omission on Team Canada because of bolting to the WHA. Now he might have gotten lost in the shuffle later on in the '70s with the "big 3" defense of the Habs but if we are just talking about 1972 then he was certainly elite then.

McKenzie had racked up 69 points and 17 playoff points en route to the Cup for the Bruins while Sanderson came off a 58 point season. I think what I was trying to say was that EVERY team suffered from the WHA to an extent. The Bruins and Habs both did yet some teams managed to fill the void better than others.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Voters

You don't think Tremblay would be about 3rd best in the NHL in 1972 among d-men? I think it's a good argument. He was a first team all-star in 1971 and racked up 57 points in '72 and was a notable omission on Team Canada because of bolting to the WHA. Now he might have gotten lost in the shuffle later on in the '70s with the "big 3" defense of the Habs but if we are just talking about 1972 then he was certainly elite then.

McKenzie had racked up 69 points and 17 playoff points en route to the Cup for the Bruins while Sanderson came off a 58 point season. I think what I was trying to say was that EVERY team suffered from the WHA to an extent. The Bruins and Habs both did yet some teams managed to fill the void better than others.

1972 the voters saw it differently. First team Orr and Park, second team Stapleton and White. Also as the 1971-72 season progressed Guy Lapointe received greater power play responsibilities, becoming an AllStar in 1973.Would say 6th-10th in 1972 but once Savard returned from his second broken leg for the 1972-73 season combined with the young d-men like Salming, Potvin, Robinson entering the league J.C. Tremblay would have a hard time staying in the top 10.

Bruins biggest WHA loss was Cheevers. McKenzie was going to be replaced. The Bruins took Sanderson back after his brief WHA fiasco but after two partial series were happy to unload him on the Rangers.

 

[MXD]

Since when goaltending, coaching, and winning 4 games out of 7 (or 3 out of 5, in other eras) aren't part of hockey?

I mean, if Cherry would've been able to manage his bench, the Bruins might have won. If Sinden wouldn't rely on Bryon !)$%*"$*% Dafoe to win games, they would've won as well. If Boudreau would not have been outcoached by Martin, the Habs would probably be out at this point. If Semin had some balls....

 

[Big Phil]

1972 the voters saw it differently. First team Orr and Park, second team Stapleton and White. Also as the 1971-72 season progressed Guy Lapointe received greater power play responsibilities, becoming an AllStar in 1973.Would say 6th-10th in 1972 but once Savard returned from his second broken leg for the 1972-73 season combined with the young d-men like Salming, Potvin, Robinson entering the league J.C. Tremblay would have a hard time staying in the top 10.

Bruins biggest WHA loss was Cheevers. McKenzie was going to be replaced. The Bruins took Sanderson back after his brief WHA fiasco but after two partial series were happy to unload him on the Rangers.

Either way, the Habs lost a great defenseman anyways and were affected by the WHA

 

[Trottier]

...Led by their tunnel-visioned superstar, they blew all three of those chances.

Have read and re-read the paragraph to which this sentence belongs since you posted it. Rarely does a single passage around these parts offer so much insight.

And the description above of #8 is the best I've read anywhere, to date. Some, undoubtedly, will see it as a huge "diss" of an undeniably great talent. It's not. But it captures what is currently wrong with him and his team.

He is, indeed, tunnel visioned. And it's the wrong tunnel.

Ironically, the same tunnel that makes him so popular does not lead to postseason success. Funny how that often works.

 

[blowhardphil]

Pride, Tradition and all that B.S. as quoted by Gerry Cheevers after the Canadiens had beaten the Bruins in 1971.

How many series can Montreal win .... when they are badly outplayed .... outclassed .... basically run over, .... but still find some magical way of coming out the winner?

1971 .... if not for Dryden .... Boston destroys Montreal a minimum of 4-1 .... The Canadiens had NO business winning that series .... out played .... out hit .... out everything ....

Against Chicago in the final .... WHAT???? .... a fluke goal decides it . ....

1973 .... Everything falls into place for another championship ....

1986 .... Another year when everything seems to line up .... and Patrick Roy .... I would have loved to see him face Edmonton ....

1993 .... Are you serious? How did Montreal weasel into this title?

When was it? 2001/02? .... Theodore absolutely robs the Bruins from sure victory after his crappy team deserves nothing less than a complete bi##h slapping .... DaFoe is an even bigger joke in the Bruins net .... (If you outshoot the opposition 3-1 .... you should win the game) ....

The latest series with Washington makes me shake my head. The Capitals should have, and deserved to whip Montreal in 5 games or less. ANOTHER COMPLETELY UNDESERVED VICTORY.

What is it? Has there ever been another team in all of professional sports who have gone on to this level of undeserved success?

DO THEY HAVE A MYSTICAL ABILITY TO WIN GAMES (and even series and championships) THAT THEY HAVE NO BUSINESS EVEN BEING INVOLVED IN?

I have been watching the NHL since the mid 60's. how is this considered a bad post? I am one of the biggest Hab fans on the planet, and I willingly admit, the Habs continually win series that they shouldnt.
I am actually at my Bruins fan buddys house right now, mouthing off and laughing at him because of this. did the Habs deserve to beat Washinton? nope. but I do think its funny and I like to rub it into guys who hate Montreal.
this post is dead on. who here figures Bobby Hull wouldnt have loved another shot at the Habs in 1973? probably a few other Blackhawks wished he had been there too. they took us to six without him.
what about boston? the guys they lost to the WHA were massive. Cheevers was equal to Montreal losing Dryden. Sanderson, Green and MacKenzie (not to mention Westfall by NYI) would be equal to say, Ferguson, Tremblay and maybe Pete Mahovlich. where would we have been then? who cares? we won.
if boston hadnt lost their guys and chicago hadnt lost Hull, add at least 10 points to each team and subtract 10 from the Habs for 73. a bit closer wouldnt you say? but I dont care, we won and I can live with it.
things did fall into place for the habs in 1973. no doubt.
1971 was another semi-fluke, but I dont consider it to be as much. remember that Sinden was dumb enough to start Ed Johnston in game 2. from then on we had it.
some forgotten points here are in 1986 if Calgary hadnt choked in game 6 against the blues they probably would have won the cup. I feared calgary, but that extra game really cost them. we played "the New Jersey Devils" trap during that final but they get all the credit.
and in 1993 the Kings had us down and out until Marty was nailed with the illegal stick. this actually even pi$$ed me off because it was a very cheap win. but we did win 3 more in a row so I guess we were the better team.
the greatest team I ever saw were the mid to late 70's Canadiens and even they fluked out. the bruins deserved to beat us in 1979 but what can I say? we won again.
I am hoping we can beat the penguins and play the bruins for the division final. Yes, we do have no business even being involved in these series, but I still feel we can possibly win.
Maybe win it all.

 

[Big Phil]

the greatest team I ever saw were the mid to late 80's Canadiens and even they fluked out. the bruins deserved to beat us in 1979 but what can I say? we won again.

Something struck me in that post. You've been watching hockey since the mid 1960s and the best team you ever saw were the 1986-'89 Habs? Not that they had a bad stretch back then but in those 4-5 years they won a Cup and lost a final. Never led the NHL in points and other than Roy and Chelios the only Hall of Fame players they had were an aging Gainey and Robinson. It is safe to say that the Habs were not even the best team of the last half of the 1980s, this going to Edmonton. They were likely on par with Calgary though.

I just thought if you've watched hockey that long there are lots of Habs teams better than the ones you mentioned just on Montreal alone

 

[eastcoaster]

I kind of suspect this is the same guy who did the original post. Either that or the only die hard Montreal fan on the planet who agrees with everything said in the original post and thinks that every title his team won since 1971 was a fluke.

I won't go into everything but this part was pretty good.

what about boston? the guys they lost to the WHA were massive. Cheevers was equal to Montreal losing Dryden. Sanderson, Green and MacKenzie (not to mention Westfall by NYI) would be equal to say, Ferguson, Tremblay and maybe Pete Mahovlich. where would we have been then? who cares? we won.

As "One of the biggest Habs fans on the planet" since the mid-60's you would know that John Ferguson retired after the '71 season and wasn't even on the 73 team. Cheevers equal to Dryden? You're also the only "die-hard" Habs fan I know of who would have swapped Dryden even up for Cheevers who incidentally was 0-6 in playoffs series versus Montreal.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Have read and re-read the paragraph to which this sentence belongs since you posted it. Rarely does a single passage around these parts offer so much insight.

And the description above of #8 is the best I've read anywhere, to date. Some, undoubtedly, will see it as a huge "diss" of an undeniably great talent. It's not. But it captures what is currently wrong with him and his team.

He is, indeed, tunnel visioned. And it's the wrong tunnel.

Ironically, the same tunnel that makes him so popular does not lead to postseason success. Funny how that often works.

Ding Ding, we have a winner here! Ovechkin is pretty much the "Nuuuu NHL" personified.

 

[Blades of Glory]

Pride, tradition, yeah, all that is ********. Goaltending, however, is not.

 

[blowhardphil]

I kind of suspect this is the same guy who did the original post. Either that or the only die hard Montreal fan on the planet who agrees with everything said in the original post and thinks that every title his team won since 1971 was a fluke.

I won't go into everything but this part was pretty good.

what about boston? the guys they lost to the WHA were massive. Cheevers was equal to Montreal losing Dryden. Sanderson, Green and MacKenzie (not to mention Westfall by NYI) would be equal to say, Ferguson, Tremblay and maybe Pete Mahovlich. where would we have been then? who cares? we won.

As "One of the biggest Habs fans on the planet" since the mid-60's you would know that John Ferguson retired after the '71 season and wasn't even on the 73 team. Cheevers equal to Dryden? You're also the only "die-hard" Habs fan I know of who would have swapped Dryden even up for Cheevers who incidentally was 0-6 in playoffs series versus Montreal.

BZZZZZZZZTTTTTT.. sorry, wrong answer.

pretty good? since it was fact? sorry that I got Fergy mixed up , I was concentrating on '71. whatever. Ya, I actually rember Fergy being involved with TC72, so I am very well aware. I appologize for any inperfection on my part.

I also do not recall my statement of trading Cheevers straight up for Dryden. where did this come from? yes, Cheevers being taken from the bruins would have been the equal to Dryden being taken from montreal. wether you want to admit it or not.

 

[eastcoaster]

1971 was another semi-fluke, but I dont consider it to be as much. remember that Sinden was dumb enough to start Ed Johnston in game 2. from then on we had it.

Boston came back to lead that series 3-2 at one point. I don't think any Montreal fan was thinking "we had it" after game 5 of that series.

the greatest team I ever saw were the mid to late 70's Canadiens and even they fluked out. the bruins deserved to beat us in 1979 but what can I say? we won again

The mid to late 70s Canadiens fluked out? How could a die hard Habs fan even think that?

some forgotten points here are in 1986 if Calgary hadnt choked in game 6 against the blues they probably would have won the cup.

That extra game was the only reason Calgary lost? Don't you think your favorite team deserves a little credit for winning their Conference final early and getting nearly a week off before the final?

"and in 1993 the Kings had us down and out until Marty was nailed with the illegal stick. this actually even pi$$ed me off because it was a very cheap win."

Spoken like every die-hard Montreal fan who was outraged by that call. Even better than the original post.

As I said previously you are the only Habs fan I've ever heard of who thinks every championship they won since 1971 was a fluke. Sorry if I was wrong but I just found it a teeny bit strange that the very first post by someone who proclaims himself one of the biggest Habs fans on the planet would be one that wholeheartedly agreed with a post - " this post is dead on" - that trashed the last eight championships and just about every series his beloved team won against Boston since 1971.