Post-Game Talk: Preseason Warmups: Columbus - 4, Penguins -3

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Tender Rip

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Feb 12, 2007
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How many defensive defensemen does Chicago have?

What sort of defenseman did we pay good money for last year in FA?

I agree with you, but the main commonality with Chicago is that they have an 'unphysical' D just like we do. Everyone on that D-group can contribute to their game plan though, as everyone of them have enough puck skills to move the puck, pinch/hold the blueline etc, and everyone of them skate well enough to not be a problem on that score. Additionally, their offensive D-men are not major risks in terms of sudden brain cramps, with Leddy being the one closer to being a problemAll of them are relatively complete players, albeit of course at different levels of excellence.

We have too many players who are decidedly one-dimensional.
 

Corvidae

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May 5, 2009
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How many defensive defensemen does Chicago have?

What sort of defenseman did we pay good money for last year in FA?

Depends on whether you associate "defensive defensemen" with "can't handle the puck." If so, none. Pittsburgh has 3 (Oprik, Scuderi... and yep, Kris Letang). If not, I'd consider HJ and I'll Do Ya to fit this roll.
 

KIRK

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Aug 2, 2005
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It's not even expecting the best, KIRK. It's expecting them not to play like ****ing idiots, like Sid not giving the puck away as much as the entire opposing team, for example.

He was making prayer passes through the box on the PP that anybody with half a clue knows not to attempt. Over. And over. He is accountable, because it's not coaching that does that, or frustration with coaching. It's poor individual decision making.

I know. I know we both want the same thing. It's just that I don't see what's happened with Sid and Geno as something sudden. It's been a 5 year downward spiral disguised by regular season achievement. If you are out at a competitive disadvantage, you try to make due with less. When you're asked to make due with less and it's wrong, you still try. But, at some point, you can see its not working, and you hope the coach tries something. Nada. Eventually, you're defeated. Sid and Geno ate lost.

As TR and Zhenya have discussed, I told you this was coming with JMN. the line isn't designed for Geno to get to his game. Worse still, it's dynamics prevent that. Not an indictment of any one player. An indictment of how the three pieces work together and a coaches refusal to remember what Fitzie taught him in 2009? Do you think Beau or JoeyV could be this years Talbot, the guy who helps Geno get to HIS game and in turn helps spark the Pens?

Do you think someone other than Kunitz might be that for Sid?

I do know what you're saying. I don't even disagree. I just know that this wasn't some sudden development and that the coach isn't making it worse by refusing to try anything to shake it up.

As I keep saying, if you set someone up to fail, then should you be surprised the day comes when he does. Again, this has been a minimum three years in the making. What you're seeing now is the end result, Sid and Geno defeated, lost, alone, and without anyone trying to help.

I appreciate it if you disagree, but what I'm seeing is a Greek tragedy.
 

madinsomniac

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Jul 3, 2012
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I know. I know we both want the same thing. It's just that I don't see what's happened with Sid and Geno as something sudden. It's been a 5 year downward spiral disguised by regular season achievement. If you are out at a competitive disadvantage, you try to make due with less. When you're asked to make due with less and it's wrong, you still try. But, at some point, you can see its not working, and you hope the coach tries something. Nada. Eventually, you're defeated. Sid and Geno ate lost.

As TR and Zhenya have discussed, I told you this was coming with JMN. the line isn't designed for Geno to get to his game. Worse still, it's dynamics prevent that. Not an indictment of any one player. An indictment of how the three pieces work together and a coaches refusal to remember what Fitzie taught him in 2009? Do you think Beau or JoeyV could be this years Talbot, the guy who helps Geno get to HIS game and in turn helps spark the Pens?

Do you think someone other than Kunitz might be that for Sid?

I do know what you're saying. I don't even disagree. I just know that this wasn't some sudden development and that the coach isn't making it worse by refusing to try anything to shake it up.

As I keep saying, if you set someone up to fail, then should you be surprised the day comes when he does. Again, this has been a minimum three years in the making. What you're seeing now is the end result, Sid and Geno defeated, lost, alone, and without anyone trying to help.

I appreciate it if you disagree, but what I'm seeing is a Greek tragedy.

True, well IMO at least. Its staggering how badly the talent is used out there...
 

WVP

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Mar 22, 2004
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It certainly is fair to include them.

But it is hard to overlook that what we are seeing from Malkin's line right now has been foreseen since the start of this season. He simply isn't the problem on that line and he is not even close to being as wasteful as Sid when it comes to giveaways.

What makes him great is that he can hold possession in the offensive zone and survey options to set up others or take shots himself like no other players. But he needs to actually have possession and right now he doesn't unless he skates the puck in or wins the puck there himself. Neal skates in and shoots from any angle and wins very few puck battles although at least he is willing to play the body. Jokinen does some OK work in coverage to help the line be solid defensively, but adds ABSOLUTELY nothing to what the others do offensively. He loses every battle, never hits, isn't part of the forecheck and does not come in to support when there's an attempt at cycling. Knowing the kind of player he is, that is exactly why some of us have said - ALL SEASON - that he should not be that lines third wheel. I don't care that he is a better offensive player than Talbot and Fedotenko were back then; what they did was liberate Malkin and make help him be the best he could be. That is much more important, and I am about to puke every time I read that Malkin has the best wingers on the team without people comprehending that it is not about who is the better player but who is the better fit.

Bylsma stumbled into that with Bennett and Stempniak on Sutter's wing, because suddenly we saw three players there who could all play a style of game complimentary of one another. They can even cycle the puck because all of them work hard, skate and support each other. Bylsma always have to stumble into things because complementarity is something he just doesn't understand, and then when he finds an acorn and it suddenly works, our media hillbillies consider that a sign of him making a great adjustment, never mind that such revelatory coaching decisions have been cried for here for months or sometimes years. So, same as last year with Iginla/Neal? Yes. No lessons learned. Whatsoever.

Now, as regards Crosby.... I really don't know where he was after the first period yesterday. His decision making was just terrible and he seemed oddly off in most everything he did. We of course need him to be quite a bit more than that, but it didn't help that it was rarely Nisky-Maatta behind his line. We really should not discount the import of having our top two ES D-pairings both have one guy who cannot support the way Dan is trying to have us play offense. They don't hold the line either, because they are rightly afraid of what they'd do under pressure, and when we are camped in our zone you see two Columbus D-men encroach on our zone, being most often 5-10 feet inside our blueline when their forwards have gotten the puck deep and established their forecheck. We used to do that also you say? Yes, "used to" being the operative words. When you cannot push up your D-men you cannot have an effective cycle/forecheck, because there will always be too many gaps to bring the puck out. Nothing could be more ironic when considering how we have been drafting and what guys like Despres and Bortuzzo's natural games are like.

As for effort.... well, I think the hated and admittedly unreliable 'real time stats' show us much of what we need to know... it is not that people don't skate... but I should make another thread for that. Will be up a little later.

Short reply to a long post but I agree 100%. The second line needs a puck retriever, someone to fly in and gain possession when we chip the puck in. That's rarely Malkin and it's not Neal (only plays a complete game about 10% of the time these days). Jokinen will finish the play but outside of that is the worst fit possible.
 

ColePens

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Here is my issue w/ saying linemates are Sid's problem....

In the Olympics, Sid did the SAME thing. He'd fly into the zone and either pull up at the top of the circle and look for a trailer or he'd go all the way in, pull up, and force a puck through 3 guys to the point. That was on a completely loaded Team Canada where he picked his ****ing wingers. I hate to harp on Sid because I believe he's the best player in the game, but come on. When is it going to be his fault and nobody not every other reason (coach, wingers, system, etc). He did the same thing in the Olympics as he is doing now.

That is actually scary to me because I don't really understand where it's coming from. It's just a total lack of desperation. Two gold medal and a Cup and the kid, who doesn't do anything but focus on hockey, seems to not show desperation. That makes zero sense to me.
 

SUBdrewgANS

Let's Go Pens!
Dec 4, 2007
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What I would like to see for game 3:

If neither Goc or Gibby are ready
Kunitz - Crosby - Stempniak
Jokinen - Malkin - Neal
Megna - Sutter - Bennet
Scrabbled/Engelland - Vitale - Glass

If Goc is ready
Stempniak - Crosby - Bennet/Goc
Kunitz - Malkin - Neal
Jokinen - Sutter - Bennet/Goc
Megna - Vitale - Engelland/Glass/Scrabbles

If Goc and Gibby are ready
Goc/Stempniak - Crosby - Gibbons
Kunitz - Malkin - Neal
Goc/Stempniak - Sutter - Bennet
Megna - Vitale - Engelland/Scrabbles/Glass
 

Shady Machine

Registered User
Aug 6, 2010
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It's not even expecting the best, KIRK. It's expecting them not to play like ****ing idiots, like Sid not giving the puck away as much as the entire opposing team, for example.

He was making prayer passes through the box on the PP that anybody with half a clue knows not to attempt. Over. And over. He is accountable, because it's not coaching that does that, or frustration with coaching. It's poor individual decision making.

It was inevitable because DB and Shero didn't put Crosby in the best position to succeed.
 

Shady Machine

Registered User
Aug 6, 2010
36,705
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I know. I know we both want the same thing. It's just that I don't see what's happened with Sid and Geno as something sudden. It's been a 5 year downward spiral disguised by regular season achievement. If you are out at a competitive disadvantage, you try to make due with less. When you're asked to make due with less and it's wrong, you still try. But, at some point, you can see its not working, and you hope the coach tries something. Nada. Eventually, you're defeated. Sid and Geno ate lost.

As TR and Zhenya have discussed, I told you this was coming with JMN. the line isn't designed for Geno to get to his game. Worse still, it's dynamics prevent that. Not an indictment of any one player. An indictment of how the three pieces work together and a coaches refusal to remember what Fitzie taught him in 2009? Do you think Beau or JoeyV could be this years Talbot, the guy who helps Geno get to HIS game and in turn helps spark the Pens?

Do you think someone other than Kunitz might be that for Sid?

I do know what you're saying. I don't even disagree. I just know that this wasn't some sudden development and that the coach isn't making it worse by refusing to try anything to shake it up.

As I keep saying, if you set someone up to fail, then should you be surprised the day comes when he does. Again, this has been a minimum three years in the making. What you're seeing now is the end result, Sid and Geno defeated, lost, alone, and without anyone trying to help.

I appreciate it if you disagree, but what I'm seeing is a Greek tragedy.

Say you're right. If I'm Sid and I'm fed up with being put in a ****** situation all the time, wouldn't I try to take things into my own hands? Sid's problem in game 2, other than not giving a ****, was that he continually tried to force passes rather than taking a shot or driving the net. He was playing foolishly unselfish hockey.

I totally understand your argument over the long term, but we are talking about game 2. Sid playing like **** in game 2 is on him and him alone.
 

Shady Machine

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Aug 6, 2010
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Here is my issue w/ saying linemates are Sid's problem....

In the Olympics, Sid did the SAME thing. He'd fly into the zone and either pull up at the top of the circle and look for a trailer or he'd go all the way in, pull up, and force a puck through 3 guys to the point. That was on a completely loaded Team Canada where he picked his ****ing wingers. I hate to harp on Sid because I believe he's the best player in the game, but come on. When is it going to be his fault and nobody not every other reason (coach, wingers, system, etc). He did the same thing in the Olympics as he is doing now.

That is actually scary to me because I don't really understand where it's coming from. It's just a total lack of desperation. Two gold medal and a Cup and the kid, who doesn't do anything but focus on hockey, seems to not show desperation. That makes zero sense to me.

Absolutely right. Well said.
 

MrBurghundy

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Oct 5, 2009
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Here is my issue w/ saying linemates are Sid's problem....

In the Olympics, Sid did the SAME thing. He'd fly into the zone and either pull up at the top of the circle and look for a trailer or he'd go all the way in, pull up, and force a puck through 3 guys to the point. That was on a completely loaded Team Canada where he picked his ****ing wingers. I hate to harp on Sid because I believe he's the best player in the game, but come on. When is it going to be his fault and nobody not every other reason (coach, wingers, system, etc). He did the same thing in the Olympics as he is doing now.

That is actually scary to me because I don't really understand where it's coming from. It's just a total lack of desperation. Two gold medal and a Cup and the kid, who doesn't do anything but focus on hockey, seems to not show desperation. That makes zero sense to me.

I'm not sure how much a coach is going to get through to Crosby during a short tournament like the Olympics. I think he's regressed in his play style (even though he still scores his points) under Bylsma. Bylsma wants him to play the way he plays (or can't correct it) and he's been doing it for long enough that he's almost going to have to be retrained by any new coach. The blame is on Crosby for letting it happen to him for sure though. He has to be better no matter what the circumstance.
 

spcastlemagic

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Jul 3, 2006
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We have too many players who are decidedly one-dimensional.

My take on this over the weekend is we have too many players where you have to take the good with the bad. We don't have any players that just give you the good. You get high-end something with all of our stars, but it is always saddled with unreliability and a penchant for some kind of stupidity.
 

ColePens

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I'm not sure how much a coach is going to get through to Crosby during a short tournament like the Olympics. I think he's regressed in his play style (even though he still scores his points) under Bylsma. Bylsma wants him to play the way he plays (or can't correct it) and he's been doing it for long enough that he's almost going to have to be retrained by any new coach. The blame is on Crosby for letting it happen to him for sure though. He has to be better no matter what the circumstance.

I won't disagree. Babcock just relied on other lines to win him the Gold in Sochi. Bylsma does not have that roster. He needs Crosby. Therefore - I agree with you.

But how funny is it that EVERYONE on the team follows suit and forces pucks from the goal line to the point over and over and over again. I don't care what the name is, every player is following Sid. East/west turnovers, forcing pucks to the point through 3 people, etc.

And just to ***** - nothing drives me more insane than Sid throwing a puck, for no reason, across the ice on the powerplay when he has a easy shot to take.
 

Mr Jiggyfly

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Jan 29, 2004
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Here is my issue w/ saying linemates are Sid's problem....

In the Olympics, Sid did the SAME thing. He'd fly into the zone and either pull up at the top of the circle and look for a trailer or he'd go all the way in, pull up, and force a puck through 3 guys to the point. That was on a completely loaded Team Canada where he picked his ****ing wingers. I hate to harp on Sid because I believe he's the best player in the game, but come on. When is it going to be his fault and nobody not every other reason (coach, wingers, system, etc). He did the same thing in the Olympics as he is doing now.

That is actually scary to me because I don't really understand where it's coming from. It's just a total lack of desperation. Two gold medal and a Cup and the kid, who doesn't do anything but focus on hockey, seems to not show desperation. That makes zero sense to me.

Thing is, that's exactly how Gretzky played, so I don't have a problem with it. The difference is Gretzky wasn't one to force pucks. He made dumb passes here and there obviously, but you rarely saw him have four bad turnovers in a game like Crosby had Sat.

Gretzky was always looking for the trailer, but if it wasn't there, he held the puck and "slowed" the play down, but he definitely loved to shoot also if a play wasn't there. That's what I keep saying I wish Crosby would do. I think maybe he is making an effort to get the puck off his stick faster, so he isn't as susceptible to big hits/extra abuse. Usually a guy like Crosby becomes more crafty with age, not more mistake prone. So it seems like it's something he is doing consciously.

He stayed healthy for the first time in yrs, so it's hard to argue that aspect if that is his goal. The problem is he is forcing passes though with that mindset. However, he does it in the PP to, so I could be way off here.
 

MrBurghundy

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I won't disagree. Babcock just relied on other lines to win him the Gold in Sochi. Bylsma does not have that roster. He needs Crosby. Therefore - I agree with you.

But how funny is it that EVERYONE on the team follows suit and forces pucks from the goal line to the point over and over and over again. I don't care what the name is, every player is following Sid. East/west turnovers, forcing pucks to the point through 3 people, etc.

And just to ***** - nothing drives me more insane than Sid throwing a puck, for no reason, across the ice on the powerplay when he has a easy shot to take.

Exactly. I mean what the hell is he thinking? Its almost like he thinks, "well I'm Sidney Crosby so I can obviously thread the needle every time I want."

This is where its 100% on the coach to get his star player back in line. I'm not going to speculate if Bylsma wants him to make that play or not, but let's assume he doesn't and hates when Sid makes it. What is the solution? Trade Crosby? Bench the only guy who wins you games? If Crosby doesn't respect Bylsma enough to listen to his message, then you have to change the messenger. I mean what other solution is there?
 

cheesedanish87

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Jun 27, 2012
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Here is my issue w/ saying linemates are Sid's problem....

In the Olympics, Sid did the SAME thing. He'd fly into the zone and either pull up at the top of the circle and look for a trailer or he'd go all the way in, pull up, and force a puck through 3 guys to the point. That was on a completely loaded Team Canada where he picked his ****ing wingers. I hate to harp on Sid because I believe he's the best player in the game, but come on. When is it going to be his fault and nobody not every other reason (coach, wingers, system, etc). He did the same thing in the Olympics as he is doing now.

That is actually scary to me because I don't really understand where it's coming from. It's just a total lack of desperation. Two gold medal and a Cup and the kid, who doesn't do anything but focus on hockey, seems to not show desperation. That makes zero sense to me.

Great post.

Crosby and Malkin do play bad games, it really does happen.
 

penguins2946*

Guest
Per Todd Richards, Tyutin is out tonight and will be replaced by Prout. Foligno is in on the 3rd line with Umberger and Anisimov. Huh, so that's what a good 3rd line looks like. Umberger-Anisimov-Foligno is a pretty damn nice line.
 

dueling mullets

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Mar 28, 2013
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Would like to see Kunitz play with Malkin, and Neal play with Crosby for some shifts tonight. They need a change of scenery.
 

YinzAintBurgh*

Guest
How many defensive defensemen does Chicago have?

What sort of defenseman did we pay good money for last year in FA?

Difference is their "offensive defensemen" are actually good in the defensive zone as well. I don't think I have ever seen Keith or Seabrook allow a breakaway on a power play or end up on the same side of the net as their D partner for a easy tap in, in OT.

Murray was a slug he doesn't count lol You can get defensive D that can actually move their feet. I would have loved Volchenkov. I forget who they got instead I think it was all the veteran leadership that didn't do s.
 

Shady Machine

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Aug 6, 2010
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Difference is their "offensive defensemen" are actually good in the defensive zone as well. I don't think I have ever seen Keith or Seabrook allow a breakaway on a power play or end up on the same side of the net as their D partner for a easy tap in, in OT.

Murray was a slug he doesn't count lol You can get defensive D that can actually move their feet. I would have loved Volchenkov. I forget who they got instead I think it was all the veteran leadership that didn't do s.

Okay so who are our offensive dman that are bad in the defensive zone?
 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

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Sep 5, 2008
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I think it's pretty clear that Sid has checked out. No idea why, but for a while now he hasn't been the hungry player that doesn't accept defeat and does everything in his power and more to prevent it. I miss that Sid. I mean, it's tough to really ***** about him since he's had such a good year and all, but he just looks done with everything. Hopefully that's a big factor in making management fix things this summer. There's a huuuuuuge, mega-problem when the best player in the world and the guy who plays like his life is on the line night in and night out is coasting out there and lazily throwing pucks into 4 defenders.

Somethin's gotta give, and I hope huge changes are made this summer. This team needs it BADLY.
 

WVP

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Mar 22, 2004
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Per Todd Richards, Tyutin is out tonight and will be replaced by Prout. Foligno is in on the 3rd line with Umberger and Anisimov. Huh, so that's what a good 3rd line looks like. Umberger-Anisimov-Foligno is a pretty damn nice line.

Great 3rd line there.
 

ColePens

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Exactly. I mean what the hell is he thinking? Its almost like he thinks, "well I'm Sidney Crosby so I can obviously thread the needle every time I want."

This is where its 100% on the coach to get his star player back in line. I'm not going to speculate if Bylsma wants him to make that play or not, but let's assume he doesn't and hates when Sid makes it. What is the solution? Trade Crosby? Bench the only guy who wins you games? If Crosby doesn't respect Bylsma enough to listen to his message, then you have to change the messenger. I mean what other solution is there?

MT benched Subban. People think I'm crazy when I say bench a star. It doesn't mean for the whole game. Sid did more bad than good the other night. Bench his ass off the top PP and his next shift.

You want to send a message.. you did it to Kunitz and Letang. You do it to Crosby and wow.... the bench will quickly start getting that this **** is serious.
 

Candyman

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Aug 17, 2012
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What I would like to see for game 3:

If neither Goc or Gibby are ready
Kunitz - Crosby - Stempniak
Jokinen - Malkin - Neal
Megna - Sutter - Bennet
Scrabbled/Engelland - Vitale - Glass

If Goc is ready
Stempniak - Crosby - Bennet/Goc
Kunitz - Malkin - Neal
Jokinen - Sutter - Bennet/Goc
Megna - Vitale - Engelland/Glass/Scrabbles

If Goc and Gibby are ready
Goc/Stempniak - Crosby - Gibbons
Kunitz - Malkin - Neal
Goc/Stempniak - Sutter - Bennet
Megna - Vitale - Engelland/Scrabbles/Glass
You're scratching Jokinen all together if Goc and Gibbons are ready? I don't like that. He's still a legit top 9 guy. and as much as I'd like to see some change for Sid I don't think Goc is really the offensive threat we're looking for on the first line.
 

MrBurghundy

I may be older but I'm never forgetting #47 & #41
Oct 5, 2009
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MT benched Subban. People think I'm crazy when I say bench a star. It doesn't mean for the whole game. Sid did more bad than good the other night. Bench his ass off the top PP and his next shift.

You want to send a message.. you did it to Kunitz and Letang. You do it to Crosby and wow.... the bench will quickly start getting that this **** is serious.

Well I agree, but the time to bench him has long passed. He IS our offense (along with Geno). If he's not out there we aren't scoring, and consequently aren't winning. You can afford to lose games in the regular season, but not now in the playoffs. Plus there is a huge gap when comparing PK's importance to Montreal and Sid's importance to the Pens.

I mean I guess benching him from a PP or a regular shift might do something, but it just seems forced and too little too late, and there's a risk Crosby thinks so too and checks out for good.
 
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