Post-Game Talk: Preseason Warmups: Columbus - 4, Penguins -3

[SUBdrewgANS]

You're scratching Jokinen all together if Goc and Gibbons are ready? I don't like that. He's still a legit top 9 guy. and as much as I'd like to see some change for Sid I don't think Goc is really the offensive threat we're looking for on the first line.

whoops! I missed Jokinen in the last one.. well he'll be put in there somewhere.. ha

 

[Shockmaster]

Well I agree, but the time to bench him has long passed. He IS our offense (along with Geno). If he's not out there we aren't scoring, and consequently aren't winning. You can afford to lose games in the regular season, but not now in the playoffs. Plus there is a huge gap when comparing PK's importance to Montreal and Sid's importance to the Pens.

I mean I guess benching him from a PP or a regular shift might do something, but it just seems forced and too little too late, and there's a risk Crosby thinks so too and checks out for good.

This right here. Did benching Letang send a message to the team in Game 2? No it didn't. For the last 5 years Bylsma has been everyone's best buddy. Now all the sudden in the playoffs he's going to be a disciplinarian? The players don't buy it, and as you said, too little too late. Bylsma's time with the Penguins needs to be over.

 

[Til the End of Time]

sid was one of the most competitive/hungry prospects to ever be drafted. the guy was a winner with a work ethic through the roof, and thats what made him stand out among all the other uber talented prospects that have been drafted over the past few decades.

a guy like that doesnt suddenly lose his competitive fire, unless there are outside factors at play (personal problems, substance abuse, etc.). it's possible his concussions have taken its toll on him, as there are a myriad of serious health conditions that have been associated with concussions. concussions can change people.

but more likely, i think its simply that playing for this organization with this ass-backwards atmosphere has taken its toll. similar thing with malkin.

these guys dont just start spontaneously half-assing it. either there are outside factors at play (which i doubt) or this organization's culture is diminishing sid/geno's fire.

i think its definitely the latter.

 

[blueliner18]

Ok... I went to the game Saturday night and there were soooo many blatent errors and turnovers it is impossible to point at one person for the teams "short comings".

First off, Malkin and Neal looked like they showed up to attend a public skate. If the puck wasn't on their stick, they weren't skating. If they missed a pass or the puck was just out of reach they would go for a skate (about a 25ft radius coasting turn), instead of making a quick stop and start. You could effectively blame Bylsma for this type of laziness because it has not been extinguished through constructive discipline at all this year. Why is it Malkin can be lazy and make bad decisions and plays for an entire game and still get 30 minutes of ice time. Yet if it is anyone else on the team, one simple error they will not see another shift.
Scuderi is another issue. His problems cannot be connected to coaching unless the systems implemented by the coaching staff constantly cause him to be out of position and slow footed. I think the management and Penguins fans expected waaaay to much from Scuds. In his first tour let us not forget he was paired with Hal Gill which now seems to be who the true "shutdown man" was in that pairing. In LA he played with probably (arguably) the best (or one of) defenseman in the league Drew Doughty. Since he has been paired with partners that are equally as good/bad (depending on how you look at it) since his return to PIT his game sticks out like a sore thumb. He should sit game 3 and someone should hold Shero's nose to the fire for signing him for 4 years. Regardless he IS NOT a puck moving defenseman, trying to make him one at this point in his career, forget it. Trying to pair him and Letang (when Letang is having troubles himself) is just adding to a recipe for disaster. Sit him and add Bortuzzo and at the very least you will add a bit more physicality to the line-up.
I have to say for as many games as I watched this year (pretty close to all 82) and in years past. Saturday was probably one of the worst efforts I have ever seen from #87. Everytime he had possession of the puck in the offensive zone from the blueline to the hash marks, he turned the puck over. Whether it was a blind backhand pass to nobody or an attempt to thread the needle through 4 Columbus defenders, the play went the other way and usually in favorable numbers for Columbus. I'm not sure if it was the fact that Dubinsky took a run at him every time he touched the puck or what, but he did not look even close to being the most dominant player in the league. Never once in the entire game did it look like he had the will or want to take control of that game. When your leader is making turnovers left and right and looks fatigued, who are you to look at for motivation...? I could have probably picked 5 people out of the stands that would have at the very least played with more heart and determination than #87, #71, #18, #58, and #4.
A Brian Gibbons fan I am NOT, but when he left that game on Saturday the rest of the Penguins left with him. As odd as it may sound he was the only one providing the team with a pulse with his energetic play in the first period. His speed through the neutral zone was incredible and although not really what you want in regard to a physical player, his skating alone was exciting enough to provide a spark.
Last of all, a question... How is it possible that a team loaded with stars, specifically on the powerplay unit, cannot break the puck into the zone while on the PP?????? You out number Columbus by 1 and they are playing really aggressive at the blueline. Why are you trying to make 6 neutral zone passes so you can skate the puck in the zone??? DUMP THE F'ING PUCK!!!! Either everyone is too good/lazy to chase down the dump, or they are so good (on paper obviously) that the other team just needs to bow down and let them enter the zone uncontested. At the professional level these players should not have to be reminded that a PP is not a BREAK!! It needs to be an incentive to work harder and make the opposing team pay for their mistakes. Yes you outman them, but you need to outwork them.
So wrapping it up I'd say Tuesday night was 60% coaching, 15% Scuds/Letang pairing, 10% lack of effort from Geno and Neal, 10% where the hell was our captain?, and 5% losing Gibbons (sad when a career AHL'er outshines the captain).

 

[ColePens]

sid was one of the most competitive/hungry prospects to ever be drafted. the guy was a winner with a work ethic through the roof, and thats what made him stand out among all the other uber talented prospects that have been drafted over the past few decades.

a guy like that doesnt suddenly lose his competitive fire, unless there are outside factors at play (personal problems, substance abuse, etc.). it's possible his concussions have taken its toll on him, as there are a myriad of serious health conditions that have been associated with concussions. concussions can change people.

but more likely, i think its simply that playing for this organization with this ass-backwards atmosphere has taken its toll. similar thing with malkin.

these guys dont just start spontaneously half-assing it. either there are outside factors at play (which i doubt) or this organization's culture is diminishing sid/geno's fire.

i think its definitely the latter.

But they condone it and signed 10+ year extensions with it.... why?

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

This right here. Did benching Letang send a message to the team in Game 2? No it didn't. For the last 5 years Bylsma has been everyone's best buddy. Now all the sudden in the playoffs he's going to be a disciplinarian? The players don't buy it, and as you said, too little too late. Bylsma's time with the Penguins needs to be over.

Kinds reminds me of Boudreau's final days in Washington.

 

[Til the End of Time]

But they condone it and signed 10+ year extensions with it.... why?

sid/geno are still human, they have been surrounded by people that dont challenge them, dont push them, make sure they feel warm/comfy and get to play with their friends, where their friends rarely get traded away. its a "feel-good" environment. theyve also probably gotten cocky/smug. i'm sure they have see the media reports where every year the pens are the favorites, and they probably buy into that stuff. only recently has the media questioned anything about the penguins. like dejan said, the organization tries (usually successfully) to control everything said about the pens. sid, geno and everyone else have been living in this bubble.

if all your friends are around, everyone is nice to you, and the media says you are great, you are going to buy into it and become complacent. can you blame them for wanting to stick around?

bottom line-- this organization/culture have made them complacent.

 

[mpp9]

Thing is, that's exactly how Gretzky played, so I don't have a problem with it. The difference is Gretzky wasn't one to force pucks. He made dumb passes here and there obviously, but you rarely saw him have four bad turnovers in a game like Crosby had Sat.

Gretzky was always looking for the trailer, but if it wasn't there, he held the puck and "slowed" the play down, but he definitely loved to shoot also if a play wasn't there. That's what I keep saying I wish Crosby would do. I think maybe he is making an effort to get the puck off his stick faster, so he isn't as susceptible to big hits/extra abuse. Usually a guy like Crosby becomes more crafty with age, not more mistake prone. So it seems like it's something he is doing consciously.

He stayed healthy for the first time in yrs, so it's hard to argue that aspect if that is his goal. The problem is he is forcing passes though with that mindset. However, he does it in the PP to, so I could be way off here.

Yeah it seems he's definitely made a conscious effort since his concussion to change his game. I have no problem with it, b/c he'll likely stay a game breaking player for a longer period of time.

But there's no excuse for how he's playing on the PP. I'd take him off the 1st unit and roll Kunitz/Malkin/Neal with Martin/Nisky.

This team just needs to simplify things.

 

[Rocket of Russia]

This right here. Did benching Letang send a message to the team in Game 2? No it didn't. For the last 5 years Bylsma has been everyone's best buddy. Now all the sudden in the playoffs he's going to be a disciplinarian? The players don't buy it, and as you said, too little too late. Bylsma's time with the Penguins needs to be over.

Apparently Bylsma forgot to read Machiavelli's "The Prince" during his Leadership 101 training, as he patiently ascended the ladder ever so humbly.

 

[mpp9]

But they condone it and signed 10+ year extensions with it.... why?

B/c who doesn't want to go to work where it's all friends and happy time?

I'd probably give up some success later in life if work was that easy. The culture change is going to have to come from ownership.

 

[Pancakes]

I don't think Sid is coasting because he hates the coach or his linemates or the system. I think he's playing the way he is because he's frustrated at how tightly he's getting checked. Every time he touches the puck, Columbus is hitting him. It's exhausting to deal with that shift in and shift out, so after a while you start just throwing pucks away.


The way to deal with that style of play is to play a calm and collected style and execute quick passes. Our best periods against Columbus (3rd period game 1, 1st period game 2) were when we were playing a steady and calm game with tape to tape passes. When we get into trouble is when we start trying to out grit and out hit the other team. That is not how we're built. If you try to respond to tard hockey by playing tard hockey back, you're gonna lose because Columbus (and other teams) are better at that style of play than we are.

Let them forecheck ferociously on us. Let them hit every chance they get. Respond like Detroit in its prime did - just calmly and cooly pass around the bulldozers. We've done that at times against Columbus this series but we can't seem to consistently do it for some reason. Yet every time we've gotten into a flow of playing the right way it's completely neutered Columbus' forecheck and given us a ton of space in the neutral zone. If you pass around the tard forecheck it eventually forces them to start backing off or risk giving up endless oddman rushes.


I don't think passion is the issue at all. At all. It's execution, pure and simple. Instead of playing calm under pressure many of our guys are throwing pucks away and panicking. That feeds right into what Columbus is doing.

The Pens get frustrated by that style of play because they're used to having more space to make plays. It's the playoffs, and checking is gonna be super tight. Bylsma needs to remind them of that and get them to play SIMPLE effective tape to tape pass hockey. Enough with the hope plays, that just feeds the beast that is turnovers.

 

[blueliner18]

I don't think Sid is coasting because he hates the coach or his linemates or the system. I think he's playing the way he is because he's frustrated at how tightly he's getting checked. Every time he touches the puck, Columbus is hitting him. It's exhausting to deal with that shift in and shift out, so after a while you start just throwing pucks away.

While I mostly agree with this, the argument does not "hold water" if you look at the turnovers he committed on the PP.

 

[zhenyas most fly rep]

Yep. I'm pretty sure Sid is in a similar boat. Serious question: Who were the last guys who did things to help Sid and Geno get to THEIR games?

Neal and 2014 Kunitz help them accrue more regular season points, but by my estimate Talbot when he morphed into Malone 2.0 and Kunitz before he became a perimeter player was the last time. That was 2009.

For Malkin? I'd say Kunitz in 2012 was at times, mostly when he found his legs and decided to be the ferocious forechecker he can be. However, even in his worst night back then, he created more space for Malkin and Neal that Jokinen ever did. (well his playing style is simply a better complement for those other two than Jokinen's)

Malkin needs 2 talented guys that read him, interact well with him and at least one that will able to dig pucks along with him for the line. (Jokinen is the former, not the latter, Neal is not good enough at the latter and well, it wouldn't make much sense to expect him to be that kind of guy for the line anyway)
The fact that one of them is a great goal scorer may not matter as much as one could think but is a nice bonus.

As long as he has that kind of wingers, I'm positive his line will generate numerous scoring chances, at the very least, Malkin will have everything at disposition to succeed and the line's production will rest on his shoulders.

I deliberately left Crosby out of the discussion since his issues are much harder to correct, like Malkin, some of the blame going to Shero,(how many years since Hossa?), some to Bylsma (matchups, linemates, ice time distribution, not the most appropriate system..), some to his linemates (Kunitz too good to play a hard game anymore?, Dupuis injured) but I have also a hard time denying that Crosby isn't part of the problem himself.

Crosby has changed his game quite a bit since he entered the league, nothing wrong with that, top players have to evolve, refine their game as they gain in experience and get older.(looking for durability plays a huge part as well) We've all seen what happened to player that wouldn't, couldn't evolve (Ovechkin).
And until the concussion, I'd say he had done a good job at it.

But since then, he is becoming more and more a perimeter player, how many times a game do we see him driving the net anymore or even attacking opposing Dmen? Either he can't or don't want to. To make matter worse he isn't keeping the opposition honest, refusal to shoot and always looking to pass to Kunitz (and a lot of forced passes to him) or back to the blueline.
At this point, the book on Crosby has not only become quite clear, but worst of all, quite achievable :
-keep him to the outside (in addition to Crosby's own willingness, it also seems much easier to do nowadays, probably due to past injuries or general fatigue coming from a long season for him),
-deny him his passing options, mainly to Kunitz.

Then there's the right winger problem : he won't work with, he won't trust anyone else than a Dupuis clone. Lastest example of that is a talented winger like Bennett, who should change his game and play Dupuis-like to accommodate both his linemates.
The ironic part is that they are acting as if the Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis line was the greatest thing on earth for anyone involved and couldn't be shut down, but it has been before and will be in the future.

Of course, the issues with Crosby and his line haven't just arised with the start of the playoffs. It may have been a great reg season for him from a statistical standpoint, but I think it was one of his worst if you look closely at his individual performances and the line's ability to generate scoring chances game in, game out, even more so since Dupuis went down.

Hopefully we'll see some major changes this summer, going as far as our GM and hopefully, Sid and Kunitz will re-think their game and not just wait for Dupuis to come back.

 

[Houston Penguin]

I don't think Sid is coasting because he hates the coach or his linemates or the system. I think he's playing the way he is because he's frustrated at how tightly he's getting checked. Every time he touches the puck, Columbus is hitting him. It's exhausting to deal with that shift in and shift out, so after a while you start just throwing pucks away.


The way to deal with that style of play is to play a calm and collected style and execute quick passes. Our best periods against Columbus (3rd period game 1, 1st period game 2) were when we were playing a steady and calm game with tape to tape passes. When we get into trouble is when we start trying to out grit and out hit the other team. That is not how we're built. If you try to respond to tard hockey by playing tard hockey back, you're gonna lose because Columbus (and other teams) are better at that style of play than we are.

Let them forecheck ferociously on us. Let them hit every chance they get. Respond like Detroit in its prime did - just calmly and cooly pass around the bulldozers. We've done that at times against Columbus this series but we can't seem to consistently do it for some reason. Yet every time we've gotten into a flow of playing the right way it's completely neutered Columbus' forecheck and given us a ton of space in the neutral zone. If you pass around the tard forecheck it eventually forces them to start backing off or risk giving up endless oddman rushes.


I don't think passion is the issue at all. At all. It's execution, pure and simple. Instead of playing calm under pressure many of our guys are throwing pucks away and panicking. That feeds right into what Columbus is doing.

The Pens get frustrated by that style of play because they're used to having more space to make plays. It's the playoffs, and checking is gonna be super tight. Bylsma needs to remind them of that and get them to play SIMPLE effective tape to tape pass hockey. Enough with the hope plays, that just feeds the beast that is turnovers.

Awesome post! Detroit got roped into Boston way of playing yesterday and they got burned for it. We got roped in CBus' way after the first Saturday and you see the result.

 

[themethod7]

Kinds reminds me of Boudreau's final days in Washington.

Amen. Doesn't mean Bylsma is a bad coach - he may very well go on to find success like BBQ Bruce has in Anaheim - he's just not the right coach for this team anymore.

 

[Shady Machine]

Amen. Doesn't mean Bylsma is a bad coach - he may very well go on to find success like BBQ Bruce has in Anaheim - he's just not the right coach for this team anymore.

Yeah but the scary part is that Washington has sucked balls since then. I'm not suggesting that would happen to the Pens, but I don't really care for that comparison as it doesn't bode well for the pens.

 

[MtlPenFan]

Awesome post! Detroit got roped into Boston way of playing yesterday and they got burned for it. We got roped in CBus' way after the first Saturday and you see the result.

And who's going to make these tape to tape passes around a hard forecheck when 3 forwards are at the opposing blue line?

Scuderi? Orpik?