Premier League 2020-2021 (Part II)

[Savant]

So you’ve sided with the winning side. You don’t get to complain.

It’s both. I don’t see how it’s one or the other.

 

[The Abusement Park]

It’s both. I don’t see how it’s one or the other.

Than make the subs. But you don’t get it both ways.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

I personally totally disagree with the 5 sub rule.
So I'm surprised "most of you" guys agree with it.
It's a rule made for teams with depth, thus richer teams.
Part of the hope of a small team in order to beat a big team is that their main players will be benched to get som rest or that at least the big teams playing Europe will be tired.
If even THAT is taken out of the balance, what's the hope of smaller teams?

I dont think its that straight forward. I think the first priority is the players health the rest comes in 2nd place.

 

[YNWA14]

I dont think its that straight forward. I think the first priority is the players health the rest comes in 2nd place.

To be fair I think you can still prioritize player health while working around the 3 sub rule. It just means that you will need to rotate more than maybe you'd like at the expense of, potentially, winning. Though I think that favours deeper, richer teams even more than 5 subs does if coaches really did put player safety above winning.

For me the 5 sub rule makes sense as I think there's a bigger quality difference usually between a top team's bench and their preferred starting XI and a mid or bottom table team's bench. At first I thought the 5 sub rule would favour smaller teams that typically defended systemically as it would allow for more fresh legs as they tired. Though I think not everyone shares that opinion.

 

[Savant]

Than make the subs. But you don’t get it both ways.

We did that against 16th place Fulham. We did not do that vs 2nd place Tottenham. See the difference?

 

[Evilo]

Every other league is doing it.

How does that change what I say?

 

[Savant]

How does that change what I say?

You are allowed to have an opinion, but my point is that the PL is knowingly putting themselves at a disadvantage in European competitions but limited subs.

 

[Evilo]

And mine is that the 5 sub rule should not exist.
So the PL is doing the right thing.

 

[robertmac43]

I don't get why @Savant has to 'pick one' when it comes to subs and winning. If there had been better precautions at the start of the season (less congestion, 5 subs, etc) than there would be no need for Klopp to decide between winning and rotating. He has a squad built to rotate and win but the circumstances of the year have meant far more injuries. Pointing to a huge game between the top 2 teams in the league and saying 'he didn't use the subs, such a hypocrite' sis a bad argument to me.

 

[The Abusement Park]

I don't get why @Savant has to 'pick one' when it comes to subs and winning. If there had been better precautions at the start of the season (less congestion, 5 subs, etc) than there would be no need for Klopp to decide between winning and rotating. He has a squad built to rotate and win but the circumstances of the year have meant far more injuries. Pointing to a huge game between the top 2 teams in the league and saying 'he didn't use the subs, such a hypocrite' sis a bad argument to me.

It’s not the first game he’s done it though is the thing. He’s complained about the lack of subs a ton and there has been a few games where he’s made no subs. I do agree that Klopp does have a point and that the schedule has definitely affected their squad health. But if he’s going to make such a big deal of the subs you’d think he’d actually make them. I have no issue with them trying to win, because they should, they’re still contending for the title.

This also isn’t only reserved for Klopp. Pep is very guilty of this as well.

 

[bluesfan94]

Wrote this yesterday. You are welcome to answer because the other guy didn’t.

Tied 1-1 against the second place team and needing to protect Rhys Williams with the midfield. With LFC’s injury list - who are you putting on? They still need to win the game. Here is LFC’s bench
62 Kelleher (GK)
8 Keita (not fully fit)
15 Chamberlain (has not played a minute this season)
18 Minamino (no form)
27 Origi (no form, worst player this season)
47 Phillips (CB only, can’t run)
76 N. Williams (RB only)
What sub are you doing with those options? For example, Diogo Jota, Thiago or Milner probably would have played in a game like this if they were healthy. But with LFC’s bench in a vital game, who are you taking off and who are you putting on?
-
it is a lot different to have to go to your 12th best guy than your 20th best guy especially chasing a win. And also let’s not neglect to mention that Klopp used all five subs in all but one of the Champions League Group games.

Right, but the PL saying that you now have 5 subs wouldn't change that problem for Liverpool.

 

[Jussi]

The PL did approve two concussion subs for both teams, that don't count into the 3.

 

[Savant]

Right, but the PL saying that you now have 5 subs wouldn't change that problem for Liverpool.

Of course it would not help Liverpool right now. But it would help EVERYONE in the long term.

 

[Savant]

The PL did approve two concussion subs for both teams, that don't count into the 3.

I saw that. In theory I like the idea of it but they need to put some more restrictions in to make sure it isn’t taken advantage of too. Harry Kane faked a head injury literally yesterday

 

[robertmac43]

Fifa awards are happening right now.

So far Rashford has gotten the Foundation Award and Son has gotten the Puskas.

 

[S E P H]

Only ones whining about the five-sub rule is Liverpool fans and that is strictly because Klopp has made a big deal about it due to their injury list. Any club with the highest injury list would complain the most and any club with the least would complain smallest.

 

[Blender]

It’s not the first game he’s done it though is the thing. He’s complained about the lack of subs a ton and there has been a few games where he’s made no subs. I do agree that Klopp does have a point and that the schedule has definitely affected their squad health. But if he’s going to make such a big deal of the subs you’d think he’d actually make them. I have no issue with them trying to win, because they should, they’re still contending for the title.

This also isn’t only reserved for Klopp. Pep is very guilty of this as well.

He complained about not having 5 subs and that this put his players health at risk after a game where he made no subs earlier this year.

 

[Chimaera]

Of course it would not help Liverpool right now. But it would help EVERYONE in the long term.

There's argument it might have helped the club in September or October to where they aren't getting to this stage now... But that's another subject.

I think the stupid international useless matches are a bigger problem, but it's whatever.

 

[JeffreyLFC]

I will be bluntly honest.Why is there suddenly this obsession about Klopp and his wish to protect his players?

I understand that he has been guilty of not using proper rotation and actually even before the pandemic he was always favoring a fixed top 11 with little to no subs. So yes, it is hard to figure his thought. The only reasonable explanation is winning and the player desire to compete in all games.

That being said, the talk around it is very comical. It's just like Klopp should stop focusing on winning but to rotate his players all the time.

Guess what, LFC probably have currently the worst injuries list in their long club history. The damages are done. A lot players already missed significant times and will continue missing some time. The only thing they can do is winning as much as possible with what is available. If another piece broke then you hope another player that is already injured is close to be fully fit.

Also the hardest part of the schedule is right now. After that it will be better. I was watching Manchester United lately and I was shocked to see their current squad depth. Do they even have 1 injured player? It seems more like LFC have been terribly unlucky this year which conincide with the pandemic ridiculous schedule.

 

[Chimaera]

Saying this past match is the reason he shouldn't complain about having 5 subs is clearly ignoring the real situation. I can see the argument that he shouldn't have had players going 90 minutes in a meaningless match that didn't matter in the CL. He shouldn't, and he paid for it with Jota getting hurt. But... saying they shouldn't go for it, at Anfield, against the first place club, with no real options on the bench is just blind. There's no way some of those players are coming out of a match that important, and there's no way Klopp is taking some of them off either. You know darn well any manager worth a crap is doing the same thing in that situation. Pep, Jose, you name it is going to do everything they can win that one. Even if it means putting extra minutes on their hamstrings.

I completely understand that Liverpool is going to make the argument, knowing they have more injured players right now. That said, yesterday wasn't really a situation that would have gone any other way.

 

[Chimaera]

As for the 5 subs, I get that it helps the bigger clubs, they do have players who are playing the most internationally, and they can afford the budgets to get more top players. But to think it wouldn't help some of the smaller clubs as well is silly. Sure... some of them can't afford to have 300 million in player on the bench like City or Chelsea do. But, you can at least find guys who can do a job. Every club in the EPL can find some guys who could benefit from rest, or change up something tactically, without breaking the financial situation. Every club would benefit from being able to give playing time to some u23 players at the end of a match without needing to worry about someone coming up lame and not having that extra sub.

I just don't think it's so completely one sided that it would only help the big clubs. If I'm West Brom, or Fulham, I most certainly could benefit from a few kids getting some experience near the end of matches, which would be the case with 5 subs.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

I saw that. In theory I like the idea of it but they need to put some more restrictions in to make sure it isn’t taken advantage of too. Harry Kane faked a head injury literally yesterday

The guy really is a complete tool and I do wonder with this new rule how long it takes for a team to take advantage of it.

 

[bluesfan94]

Of course it would not help Liverpool right now. But it would help EVERYONE in the long term.

Maybe? I would buy that if teams are regularly using 3 subs, but I don't know if that's true - and I mean that seriously. I have no idea if it's true

 

[bluesfan94]

I don't get why @Savant has to 'pick one' when it comes to subs and winning. If there had been better precautions at the start of the season (less congestion, 5 subs, etc) than there would be no need for Klopp to decide between winning and rotating. He has a squad built to rotate and win but the circumstances of the year have meant far more injuries. Pointing to a huge game between the top 2 teams in the league and saying 'he didn't use the subs, such a hypocrite' sis a bad argument to me.

Yeah, to Klopp's credit, the first game across all competitions he did not use his full allotment of subs was 10/24, when he used two against Sheffield. The only other games he did not use all subs were against Man City, Ajax, and now Tottenham. Now, he also used van dijk in cup games, so there is room for criticism there (and I remember some Scousers doing so then).

But I don't think subbing would have kept Van Dijk healthy given the nature of his injury and I don't think more subs would keep people like Gomez, AOC, and Matip healthy, as they have consistently shown themselves to get injured in normal seasons as well.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Klopp speaks his mind freely which is one of the things that make him a popular figure. Unfortunately he usually doesn't provide much more than an opinion very much colored by his own perception and thus self-interest and seems to be utterly unaware of the fact that there's other legitimate viewpoints out there. It's obvious that his concern for player health is ultimately only a sub-concern within a larger desire to win as many games as possible. As a result, it's probably fair to say he's a hypocrite etc. but then he's hardly the only one. It's not like the other managers in the PL speak from some enlightened objective position.