Pre-Olympic OV vs. Pre-concussion Crosby vs. 18/19 Kucherov

[KoozNetsOff 92]

We know that OV regressed to a 124 point pace after 72 games in 09/10.

Crosby had a similar PPG after 41 games in 06/07 and finished at a 125 point pace after 79 games.

We know that Crosby's next 54 games after 10/11 saw him play at a 1.60 PPG.

I think you can make a strong case for Crosby as holding onto a similar PPG as OV if he played more games.

06/07 and 09/10 definitely had a similar GPG.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Crosby in the calendar year of 2010 had 126 points in 80 games. With effective 200 foot play with less than stellar wingers.>>>

That is impressive. But around the same time OV put up 135pts (62 goals) in 81 games.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

That is impressive. But around the same time OV put up 135pts (62 goals) in 81 games.

With much better linemates and no where near the overall impact

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

With much better linemates and no where near the overall impact

Linemates is a weak excuse, it's not OV's fault that Crosby clicks with grinders instead of stars. The biggest impact is scoring goals and it looks like OV was better at that.

 

[authentic]

Linemates is a weak excuse, it's not OV's fault that Crosby clicks with grinders instead of stars. The biggest impact is scoring goals and it looks like OV was better at that.

There is no excuse needed, Crosby was objectively the better player. When players are that close offensively you take the one without elite linemates who's a clearly better defensive player and center.
Plus it's not like we didn't see them go toe to toe a bunch in their primes, both were outstanding but Crosby was just a little better, story of their careers.

 

[Plural]

There is no excuse needed, Crosby was objectively the better player. When players are that close offensively you take the one without elite linemates who's a clearly better defensive player and center.
Plus it's not like we didn't see them go toe to toe a bunch in their primes, both were outstanding but Crosby was just a little better, story of their careers.

I think it's mostly agreed that OV was better in the (in)famous "dueling hat-tricks" series.

But yeah, Sid is widely regarded as the better player. Ovechkin had better peak seasons but Crosby was injured at his statistical peak so...

 

[authentic]

I think it's mostly agreed that OV was better in the (in)famous "dueling hat-tricks" series.

But yeah, Sid is widely regarded as the better player. Ovechkin had better peak seasons but Crosby was injured at his statistical peak so...

Really though? Ovechkin only had one more point and Crosby was better defensiely. Also picked off one of his plays and went end to end for the series winner didn't he?

 

[Plural]

Really though? Ovechkin only had one more point and Crosby was better defensiely. Also picked off one of his plays and went end to end for the series winner didn't he?

It's been a while so maybe I'm misremembering. But yeah, that's my recollection of the series. Narrowly but Ovechkin was better. Pens were narrowingly the better team.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

I think it's mostly agreed that OV was better in the (in)famous "dueling hat-tricks" series.

But yeah, Sid is widely regarded as the better player. Ovechkin had better peak seasons but Crosby was injured at his statistical peak so...

Wth?!! When did this happen! Crosby dominated game 7. This is revisionist history wth

 

[Plural]

Wth?!! When did this happen! Crosby dominated game 7. This is revisionist history wth

I'll have to check tomorrow (it's getting late here and I'm about to hit the sack) if my memory is failing me. But that's how I remember the series.

Maybe I'll do a poll for fun too. But not today, it's too late here.

I might be wrong since it's been almost a decade. Or maybe my bias is getting to me. One thing is for sure, I won't believe anything you say about OV or Sid.

 

[EXTRAS]

This is great for kucherov, but points across the league are up considerably due to the change is goalie gear rules.

I dunno between OV or Crosby, but it's one of them.
It was much more difficult to produce back then.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

I'll have to check tomorrow (it's getting late here and I'm about to hit the sack) if my memory is failing me. But that's how I remember the series.

Maybe I'll do a poll for fun too. But not today, it's too late here.

I might be wrong since it's been almost a decade. Or maybe my bias is getting to me. One thing is for sure, I won't believe anything you say about OV or Sid.

You're way off base here. They were both amazing but Crosby was clearly the best player in the series. He just didn't have the opposing goalie gift him multiple free goals.

 

[Caps8112]

I wouldn't go down the "defense doesn't matter" road. OV during his peak years rivaled Jagr's lack of defensive effort.

Crosby was a responsible, if not effective, 2-way player by his 3rd or 4th year.

didn't say he wasn't effective and he has been good to great this year defensively but whenever Crosby tacks a new thing onto his game he somehow gets retroactive credit for it. Hes always been a great player but this selke form Crosby from this year doesnt get counted earlier in his career

 

[canuckking1]

You're way off base here. They were both amazing but Crosby was clearly the best player in the series. He just didn't have the opposing goalie gift him multiple free goals.

I honestly don't remember who was the better player in that series but the bolded proves you have a heavy bias.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

I honestly don't remember who was the better player in that series but the bolded proves you have a heavy bias.

No, it proves I remember the series very well. Video of the goals is available online.

 

[Plural]

I can't really find any discussions away from back then. I'll just hold off the conversation about which of the two had the better series. Both were superb. I won't argue too much if someone wants to give the nod to Sid. I'll check in some of the games footage later on to refresh my memory.

But after looking in to it a bit this morning, I think the reason why I originally thought that OV was considered better was because he has generally been outproducing Crosby on playoff matchups.

Crosby vs. Ovechkin debated by NHL.com writers

In the 20 playoff games in which they have gone head to head, Crosby has 12 wins and 22 points (12 goals, 10 assists), Ovechkin has eight wins and 28 points (14 goals, 14 assists).

Adding in last playoffs the numbers in 26 games are:

Crosby: 15G 15A 30P
Ovechkin: 17G 17A 34P

Those numbers per 82 games (because that's a threshold we've used to) amount to:

Crosby: 49G+49A=98P
Ovechkin: 53,6G+53,6A=107,2P

Not a huge difference and one could easily argue that Crosby's overall impact on the ice tips the scales. But in light of those numbers, I don't see how either of the two has a significant edge over the other in head-to-head comparison.

 

[Varan]

I can't really find any discussions away from back then. I'll just hold off the conversation about which of the two had the better series. Both were superb. I won't argue too much if someone wants to give the nod to Sid. I'll check in some of the games footage later on to refresh my memory.

But after looking in to it a bit this morning, I think the reason why I originally thought that OV was considered better was because he has generally been outproducing Crosby on playoff matchups.

Crosby vs. Ovechkin debated by NHL.com writers


Adding in last playoffs the numbers in 26 games are:

Crosby: 15G 15A 30P
Ovechkin: 17G 17A 34P

Those numbers per 82 games (because that's a threshold we've used to) amount to:

Crosby: 49G+49A=98P
Ovechkin: 53,6G+53,6A=107,2P

Not a huge difference and one could easily argue that Crosby's overall impact on the ice tips the scales. But in light of those numbers, I don't see how either of the two has a significant edge over the other in head-to-head comparison.

the fact that crosby has beat OV all the time until last season added a facade that OV is completely outplayed

 

[Midnight Judges]

There is no excuse needed, Crosby was objectively the better player. When players are that close offensively you take the one without elite linemates who's a clearly better defensive player and center.
Plus it's not like we didn't see them go toe to toe a bunch in their primes, both were outstanding but Crosby was just a little better, story of their careers.

Ovechkin had more points and a better plus minus than Crosby (same goals). I'd say that's pretty objective.

Crosby's defense was utter garbage. You are pretending Crosby was good at defense when Ovechkin had 2 points per game and the Capitals scored 3.4 goals per game? That's funny.

I mean, it doesn't surprise me, Crosby fans also make a huge deal out of his penalty killing when he is 370th in the NHL in PK TOI. You guys also act like Crosby is at some huge disadvantage playing his entire career with Malkin.

The linemates argument has always been the biggest lie on HF. Crosby gets to play with Malkin (some years Malkin factors in on 30-50% of Crosby's points), and back then he had Letang and Gonchar on the ice with him a ton - this was during Gonchar's run of being a perennial Norris contender.

Ovechkin was the best player in that series, but Crosby had Malkin, and Ovechkin had nobody remotely comparable.

 

[daver]

You're way off base here. They were both amazing but Crosby was clearly the best player in the series. He just didn't have the opposing goalie gift him multiple free goals.

They were both great offensively. I don't think one deserves an edge over the other. You can give Crosby an edge for his defensive contributions, even just by playing his C role responsibly. OV was given free reign to try to hit anyone he could with no regard for positioning and cheat in the defensive zone. I don't have an issue with this other than it takes on an element of risk.

 

[412 Others]

No, it proves I remember the series very well. Video of the goals is available online.

I remember at least 2 Fleury gifts in that series. One of them came in garbage time in game 7.

Anyway, the points between the 2 players were a wash. Ovechkin did really super cool things like jump into the glass after he scored but the points were even.

The guy that showed up in game 7, and also took the other players puck/heart to score on a breakaway was the better player. Oh, and that whole WINNING thing applies here. Points were even and the Caps were the higher seed. Such revisionist/distorted history on that '09 series.

 

[Voight]

Ovechkin had 65 points in his first 41 games in 2009-10. He then went and scored 12 goals and 24 points in his next 12 games.

We only know what Crosby did for 41 games. We know what Ovechkin did after more games, and what he did was score at a higher pace.

Its as simple as that. You can throw out what-ifs all day long but at the end of the day Ovy continued his torrid pace. That is a FACT.

 

[Regal]

Ovechkin had more points and a better plus minus than Crosby (same goals). I'd say that's pretty objective.

Crosby's defense was utter garbage. You are pretending Crosby was good at defense when Ovechkin had 2 points per game and the Capitals scored 3.4 goals per game? That's funny.

I mean, it doesn't surprise me, Crosby fans also make a huge deal out of his penalty killing when he is 370th in the NHL in PK TOI. You guys also act like Crosby is at some huge disadvantage playing his entire career with Malkin.

The linemates argument has always been the biggest lie on HF. Crosby gets to play with Malkin (some years Malkin factors in on 30-50% of Crosby's points), and back then he had Letang and Gonchar on the ice with him a ton - this was during Gonchar's run of being a perennial Norris contender.

Ovechkin was the best player in that series, but Crosby had Malkin, and Ovechkin had nobody remotely comparable.

You really need to give up this terrible argument. It's completely illogical. A player benefitting from another elite player on the PP does not negate the disadvantage of weaker ES linemates. By your logic, Crosby could play all his ES minutes with beer leaguers, score 95% of his points on the PP with Malkin, and you would say that he benefits more from elite teammates than his does currently due to Malkin being on a larger percentage of his points.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Yeah Ovechkin being better in that 09 series is crazy talk.

 

[Hippasus]

Ovechkin was a bit better overall in that series but not in game seven.

 

[Midnight Judges]

You really need to give up this terrible argument. It's completely illogical. A player benefitting from another elite player on the PP does not negate the disadvantage of weaker ES linemates. By your logic, Crosby could play all his ES minutes with beer leaguers, score 95% of his points on the PP with Malkin, and you would say that he benefits more from elite teammates than his does currently due to Malkin being on a larger percentage of his points.

Any mention of beer leaguers is completely irrelevant. Kunitz was a 60 point player. Guerin was a steady 50 point 20 goal player. If you want to say he was old, Ovechkin was playing substantial minutes with a washed up 39 yo Fedorov - who was outscored by Guerin for a five straight seasons prior. Ovie also played a lot with Victor Kozlov - who had no NHL future at that point.

Having the third best player of a generation on the ice for significant minutes on the PP (which was 25% of Crosby's ice time that season) AND sometimes at ES absolutely makes up for it to some degree (bizarre that anyone could think otherwise), if not completely (never mind that there was basically nothing to make up for to begin with). Malkin also drew top defensive match ups away from Crosby some of the time. Malkin was probably the only C in the world you could say that about.

The point Crosby fans are making is that Crosby is at an overall disadvantage because 1 of the 4 skaters he shared the ice with for some of his time at ES was not a top liner (except I already pointed out Ovechkin played a lot with even lower scoring players). Having two Norris contending defenseman (Letang and Gonchar) is not to be mentioned. Tell me, if Ovechkin shares the ice with 5 defenseman who all suck and are basically out of the NHL within 2 years (Tom Poti, Shaone Morrison, Jeff Shultz, Milan Jurcia, Tyler Sloan, Brian Helmer, Sean Collins - everyone except Mike Green) is that not also a disadvantage? Only Mike Green would have even made the Pens squad.