Potvin vs Bourque: who would you rather have on the power play?

[gotyournose]

Who would you rather man the power play unit: Bourque or Potvin. Both are at their playing best.

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[McGarnagle]

I can't speak on Potvin so I'm not going to give a declarative answer. Potvin had an absurd 18 PPG in 1974, but Bourque had a ridiculous PP Assist total of 42 in 1994 (in only 72 games). other numbers for their respective peaks are similar.

As far as Bourque is concerned though, his strength on the PP was getting pucks accurately on net, and I'm confident he created a ton of scoring opportunities through rebounds whether he received an assist on the scoresheet or not. He was also a truck and hard to outmuscle, so keeping pucks in was also a big strength.

Bourque had the longevity, Potvin the higher peak. If you're asking one powerplay in their absolute primes then maybe Potvin, but if we're talking averages over a longer stretch probably Bourque.

 

[norrisnick]

I mean, the "at their best" ever so slightly tilts it in favor of Potvin who has marginally better (adjusted) offensive totals at his peak vs Bourque.

There definitely isn't a wrong choice here.

 

[VanIslander]

Bourque at even strength,
Bossy on the power play,...

Er,...

It was the Isles pp strategy: "Get the puck to Bossy". It is an epic story. If you haven't heard it, look it up.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Potvin.

 

[quietbruinfan]

Potvin. He read plays better than Bourque and could slip into the play for chances better. It is close though as Ray was smaller, quicker and had a slightly better slapper.

 

[VanIslander]

Please read about how the HHOF coach told the HHOF dman to get the puck to the HHOF forward ON EVERY POWERPLAY!

Bossy is THE greatest sniper ever and the pp he lit it up.

(Of course, everybody should draft Potvin over Bossy in every all-time draft. But we are talking pp.)

Geez.

Read history books guys. This is clear as glass.

Oh, the other guy in this discussion (Bourque) has many more career pp goals than any other NHL defenseman (than MacInnis, who is 2nd due to a shot two goalies retired because of: BAM! BAM!)

 

[Iron Mike Sharpe]

Please read about how the HHOF coach told the HHOF dman to get the puck to the HHOF forward ON EVERY POWERPLAY!

Bossy is THE greatest sniper ever and the pp he lit it up.

(Of course, everybody should draft Potvin over Bossy in every all-time draft. But we are talking pp.)

Geez.

Read history books guys. This is clear as glass.

Oh, the other guy in this discussion (Bourque) has many more career pp goals than any other NHL defenseman (than MacInnis, who is 2nd due to a shot two goalies retired because of: BAM! BAM!)

Yeah, okay, but Potvin had 36 PPG + 96 PPA carrying an expansion team on his back for FOUR YEARS before Bossy stepped onto the ice on Long Island. He was 18 + 36 = 54 in 75-76, two years before Bossy joined the team, which was his highest PPP total, which beat Bossy's best of 50 in 78-79. Potvin proved he didn't need Bossy to produce on the PP or at ES before Bossy even got there. Next to Orr, peak Potvin was the best D I've ever seen in my life, bar none. The epitome of the Franchise Player, an expansion team was built around him and he led them to 4 straight Cups in 5 straight Finals appearances, winning 19 consecutive playoff rounds. His value cannot be overstated, and you underrate him at your own peril.

 

[VanIslander]

Coach Al Arbour has a famous story.
In training camp, getting ready for preseason play he ran pp drills: everyone was instructed to get the puck back to the point to Potvin, the captain who ran the pp.
The players passed around the puck and when it got to Bossy he shot and scored. Everyone laughed at the unexpected move. A whistle blew and they ran another pp play and when the puck got to Bossy he scored again. Billy Smith slammed his stick on the ice pissed off. The next time the pp puck came to Bossy again he didn't pass to Potvin: again he shot and scored. Coach Arbour brought everyone together and said: the new plan is: get the puck to Bossy.

I heard the coach and players tell the story. It is epic.

 

[Scintillating10]

Potvin had wicked wrist shot. He be my choice.

Can you imagine Habs Blueline if old rules still existed in 80s? Both Potvin and Bourque on same team? Roy in net. Mario first line center. Gil Perrault likely #2 center. Dionne #3 center. Bossy on the wing.

Been greatest dynasty ever

 

[VanIslander]

Potvin had 459 points on a DYNASTY powerplay (friggin' Mike Bossy & Bryan Trottier for years of success).

Bourque has the most pp points by any dman ever with 761 pp points (more than a third over a 15-year Potvin). And he did it without a dynasty, with one HHOF forward for a few years and a stacked team when he was traded in his late 30s.

To be clear: Bourque scored 33 powerplay points at age 40 in his last season, finishing a 1st team NHL defenseman.

In Potvin's 15 year career he never scored that many pp points after age 25.

Potvin has nothing over Bourque (er, maybe toughness). But Raymond has a legendary shot from the point and legendary takeaway stickhandling.

But pp? Bourque doesn't take the back seat.

 

[JackSlater]

Well, the thread has convinced me. When it comes to Potvin vs Bourque on the powerplay, I guess I just have to go with Bossy.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Potvin had wicked wrist shot. He be my choice.

Can you imagine Habs Blueline if old rules still existed in 80s? Both Potvin and Bourque on same team? Roy in net. Mario first line center. Gil Perrault likely #2 center. Dionne #3 center. Bossy on the wing.

Been greatest dynasty ever

So did Bourque.

 

[Mike C]

Yeah, okay, but Potvin had 36 PPG + 96 PPA carrying an expansion team on his back for FOUR YEARS before Bossy stepped onto the ice on Long Island. He was 18 + 36 = 54 in 75-76, two years before Bossy joined the team, which was his highest PPP total, which beat Bossy's best of 50 in 78-79. Potvin proved he didn't need Bossy to produce on the PP or at ES before Bossy even got there. Next to Orr, peak Potvin was the best D I've ever seen in my life, bar none. The epitome of the Franchise Player, an expansion team was built around him and he led them to 4 straight Cups in 5 straight Finals appearances, winning 19 consecutive playoff rounds. His value cannot be overstated, and you underrate him at your own peril.

There has never been a D to control the blue line better than Denis Potvin

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

rookie potvin - 19 PP pts / 32nd
1975 - 31 pp pts / 17th
1976 - 54 pp pts / 1st (trottier's rookie year, he was 5th)
1977 - 28 pp pts / 9th
1978 - 42 pp pts / 1st (bossy's rookie year, bossy was 2nd)
1979 - 42 pp pts / 5th (bossy was 1st) — 73 games, on pace for 3rd
1980 - potvin injury year (bossy falls to 12th)
1981 - 41 pp pts / 9th (bossy 7th)
1982 - 29 pp pts / 37th (bossy 5th) — 60 games, on pace for 13th
1983 - 30 pp pts / 26th (bossy 4th) — 69 games, on pace for 13th

how to interpret this data?

here's a little context:

1974 - islanders: 32 total pp goals, last in the league
1975 - islanders: 51 total pp goals, 14th (out of 18 teams)
1976 - islanders: 92 total pp goals, 1st
1977 - islanders: 56 total pp goals, 9th
1978 - islanders: 71 total pp goals, 3rd
1979 - islanders: 81 total pp goals, 1st
1980 - islanders: 62 total pp goals, 10th (21 teams)
1981 - islanders: 93 total pp goals, 1st
1982 - islanders: 80 total pp goals, 6th
1983 - islanders: 68 total pp goals, 12th

i don't have any conclusions. but the thing that jumps out at me is how to account for 1976 and 1980.

in '76, trottier fell from 95 pts in his rookie year to 72 pts, in four fewer games. his ES scoring fell by four pts, which as a point/game player could be nothing given the games missed. his pp scoring fell by 19 pts. and accordingly the isles pp fell to 9th (out of 18 teams) from 1st the years immediately before and after.

in 1980, potvin misses half the year and the isles pp again falls to average, in the exact middle of a five year run where they otherwise were 3rd, 1st, 1st, and 6th. third year bossy falls from 12th, after finishing 2nd and 1st in his first two years.

 

[Mandar]

Obviously, both at their primes were the best. And both played alongside of a few legendary snipers.

If you put potvin on the Bruins, and Bourque on the isles, I dont think there would be a negatable difference in either teams performance on the PP.

 

[overpass]

Bourque was probably the best ever at holding the line and limiting SH goals against. Check out the SH goals against by team from 79-80 to 99-00. Boston was an outlier with 139 SH goals against, every other team was between 176 and 287.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Potvin was part of maybe the greatest PP of all time. The Islanders dynasty was built on that dominant PP. 29.2% over 78 playoff games from 79-80 through 82-83. But I agree with @VanIslander, Bossy was the most important part of that PP, Potvin was #2.

Bourque's teams never had the best PP in the league and were rarely even top 3, but were consistently above average, and he never really had the top end talent to play with that Potvin did. And then at age 40 he clicked really well with Sakic and Forsberg.

Overall I guess I lean Bourque, but it's hard to argue with someone choosing Potvin based on his track record.

 

[McGarnagle]

Bourque was probably the best ever at holding the line and limiting SH goals against. Check out the SH goals against by team from 79-80 to 99-00. Boston was an outlier with 139 SH goals against, every other team was between 176 and 287.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Potvin was part of maybe the greatest PP of all time. The Islanders dynasty was built on that dominant PP. 29.2% over 78 playoff games from 79-80 through 82-83. But I agree with @VanIslander, Bossy was the most important part of that PP, Potvin was #2.

Bourque's teams never had the best PP in the league and were rarely even top 3, but were consistently above average, and he never really had the top end talent to play with that Potvin did. And then at age 40 he clicked really well with Sakic and Forsberg.

Overall I guess I lean Bourque, but it's hard to argue with someone choosing Potvin based on his track record.

Bourque had two HoFers in Oates and Neely during that 94 season (though Neely only played half the season, he racked up 20 PPG), and in his early prime years he was feeding Pederson, Middleton, and Crowder. Great players, all-stars, but not exactly Mike Bossy and Bryan Trottier. In 1999 at the age of 38 he posted 8-31-39 on the powerplay where their leading PPG getters were Dmitri Kristich and Steve Heinze. Simply, the man could do it all and didn't need to be surrounded by elite talent.

Likewise, Potvin had some of his best numbers on the PP before Bossy arrived. So goes to show that the Bossys and Neelys profited from Potvin/Bourque just as much as vice-versa.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

in his early prime years he was feeding Pederson, Middleton, and Crowder. Great players, all-stars, but not exactly Mike Bossy and Bryan Trottier.

early in bourque’s career, barry pederson was an elite pp talent

he was 6th (one pp pt behind bossy) and 1st (tied with gretzky) his second and third years in the league

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

There has never been a D to control the blue line better than Denis Potvin

You mean besides Bobby Orr?

 

[overpass]

rookie potvin - 19 PP pts / 32nd
1975 - 31 pp pts / 17th
1976 - 54 pp pts / 1st (trottier's rookie year, he was 5th)
1977 - 28 pp pts / 9th
1978 - 42 pp pts / 1st (bossy's rookie year, bossy was 2nd)
1979 - 42 pp pts / 5th (bossy was 1st) — 73 games, on pace for 3rd
1980 - potvin injury year (bossy falls to 12th)
1981 - 41 pp pts / 9th (bossy 7th)
1982 - 29 pp pts / 37th (bossy 5th) — 60 games, on pace for 13th
1983 - 30 pp pts / 26th (bossy 4th) — 69 games, on pace for 13th

how to interpret this data?

here's a little context:

1974 - islanders: 32 total pp goals, last in the league
1975 - islanders: 51 total pp goals, 14th (out of 18 teams)
1976 - islanders: 92 total pp goals, 1st
1977 - islanders: 56 total pp goals, 9th
1978 - islanders: 71 total pp goals, 3rd
1979 - islanders: 81 total pp goals, 1st
1980 - islanders: 62 total pp goals, 10th (21 teams)
1981 - islanders: 93 total pp goals, 1st
1982 - islanders: 80 total pp goals, 6th
1983 - islanders: 68 total pp goals, 12th

i don't have any conclusions. but the thing that jumps out at me is how to account for 1976 and 1980.

in '76, trottier fell from 95 pts in his rookie year to 72 pts, in four fewer games. his ES scoring fell by four pts, which as a point/game player could be nothing given the games missed. his pp scoring fell by 19 pts. and accordingly the isles pp fell to 9th (out of 18 teams) from 1st the years immediately before and after.

in 1980, potvin misses half the year and the isles pp again falls to average, in the exact middle of a five year run where they otherwise were 3rd, 1st, 1st, and 6th. third year bossy falls from 12th, after finishing 2nd and 1st in his first two years.

When looking at player role and team success, I wonder how important Stefan Persson was to the Isles’ all-time great PP. They peaked from 77-78 to 81-82, the same seasons that Persson manned the blueline together with Potvin, and Persson’s power play point production was at the same level as Trottier, behind Bossy and Potvin.

Persson missed 14 games in the 77-78 season. 3 games at the end of October/beginning of November, and 11 games in late November and December. The Islanders were 4/35 on the PP in those 14 games. In the 66 games he played, they went 67/191 (35%)!! To be fair, the Isles didn’t have options like Mike McEwen or a Tomas Jonsson yet to fill in when Persson was out, so it was probably a bigger downgrade to the next option than it would have been for a forward who missed time.

From Jan 1, 1978 to the end of the season, the Isles went 50/131 (38%) on the PP. Potvin, Bossy, Persson, and Trottier were 1-2-3-4 in the league in power play points in this time and Gillies was 12th. And then they scored only 3 PP goals in 28 opportunities in the 1978 playoffs. One of the storylines in the 1980 playoffs was that the Islanders had finally gotten their power play going, after going 6/59 in the 1978 and 1979 playoffs combined.

 

[Mike C]

You mean besides Bobby Orr?

orr was the best D of all time and I might argue the best player of all time although i will not argue vs gretzky. in terms of just keeping the puck in the zone, reading the play, pinching in, knowing when to get back, i think Denny was the best. in terms of all around game, speed, agility, driving the play, Orr hands down no question

 

[Mike C]

When looking at player role and team success, I wonder how important Stefan Persson was to the Isles’ all-time great PP. They peaked from 77-78 to 81-82, the same seasons that Persson manned the blueline together with Potvin, and Persson’s power play point production was at the same level as Trottier, behind Bossy and Potvin.

Persson missed 14 games in the 77-78 season. 3 games at the end of October/beginning of November, and 11 games in late November and December. The Islanders were 4/35 on the PP in those 14 games. In the 66 games he played, they went 67/191 (35%)!! To be fair, the Isles didn’t have options like Mike McEwen or a Tomas Jonsson yet to fill in when Persson was out, so it was probably a bigger downgrade to the next option than it would have been for a forward who missed time.

From Jan 1, 1978 to the end of the season, the Isles went 50/131 (38%) on the PP. Potvin, Bossy, Persson, and Trottier were 1-2-3-4 in the league in power play points in this time and Gillies was 12th. And then they scored only 3 PP goals in 28 opportunities in the 1978 playoffs. One of the storylines in the 1980 playoffs was that the Islanders had finally gotten their power play going, after going 6/59 in the 1978 and 1979 playoffs combined.

persson was an underrated performer throughout the dynasty years. very consistent,....steady as they came

 

[quietbruinfan]

Bourque was probably the best ever at holding the line and limiting SH goals against. Check out the SH goals against by team from 79-80 to 99-00. Boston was an outlier with 139 SH goals against, every other team was between 176 and 287.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Potvin was part of maybe the greatest PP of all time. The Islanders dynasty was built on that dominant PP. 29.2% over 78 playoff games from 79-80 through 82-83. But I agree with @VanIslander, Bossy was the most important part of that PP, Potvin was #2.

Bourque's teams never had the best PP in the league and were rarely even top 3, but were consistently above average, and he never really had the top end talent to play with that Potvin did. And then at age 40 he clicked really well with Sakic and Forsberg.

Overall I guess I lean Bourque, but it's hard to argue with someone choosing Potvin based on his track record.

I am a huge Bourque fan and am glad Van and others are saying he is superior based on producing better numbers with much less talent surrounding him. I think I changed my mind.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Bourque was probably the best ever at holding the line and limiting SH goals against. Check out the SH goals against by team from 79-80 to 99-00. Boston was an outlier with 139 SH goals against, every other team was between 176 and 287.

Are there home and road splits of this available? Maybe I'm dumb but when I select one or the other I get nothing back on your link.

I'd be curious about that for the obvious reason.