Potential MLB Expansion Thread

[DaaaaB's]

No offense but you don't know who I am based off where I currently live today. You are wrong. Your feelings don't trump facts.

Ok maybe I shouldn't have assumed you have always lived out east, my bad but it doesn't change anything I said. You didn't really present any facts though. You just stated that I was wrong. Maybe you call saying 20k+ during the bad years a fact but it's not helping your argument. That's awful attendance for a city the size of Toronto. That's also the announced attendance not the actual. The Jays sold season tickets to the 500 level for years at $100/year and maybe 25% of them actually showed up most nights.

I also gave you reason why the Expos attendance was bad which you chose to ignore. Things weren't even close to being equal for the two teams.

 

[Unholy Diver]

Ok maybe I shouldn't have assumed you have always lived out east, my bad but it doesn't change anything I said. You didn't really present any facts though. You just stated that I was wrong. Maybe you call saying 20k+ during the bad years a fact but it's not helping your argument. That's awful attendance for a city the size of Toronto. That's also the announced attendance not the actual. The Jays sold season tickets to the 500 level for years at $100/year and maybe 25% of them actually showed up most nights.

I also gave you reason why the Expos attendance was bad which you chose to ignore. Things weren't even close to being equal for the two teams.

The Expos only had 2 million in attendance (25K avg) 4 times in their history, all between 1979-1983, they really never drew well, no matter if the ownership gave up or not

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Ok maybe I shouldn't have assumed you have always lived out east, my bad but it doesn't change anything I said. You didn't really present any facts though. You just stated that I was wrong. Maybe you call saying 20k+ during the bad years a fact but it's not helping your argument. That's awful attendance for a city the size of Toronto. That's also the announced attendance not the actual. The Jays sold season tickets to the 500 level for years at $100/year and maybe 25% of them actually showed up most nights.

I also gave you reason why the Expos attendance was bad which you chose to ignore. Things weren't even close to being equal for the two teams.

2019 MLB Attendance - Major League Baseball - ESPN

Check out this 2019 report of MLB attendance sortable by both baseball stadium and team.

www.espn.com

It is all here. In year 3 of a rebuild they averaged 21K a game which is the lowest it has gotten in over 10 years and still better then a number of other markets average generally in good and bad times. In 2017 with an 86 loss team they averaged almost 40K a game. I am not trying to say there aren't fair weather fans of the Jays in Toronto but there is just an extremely loyal base following of the team that doesn't bail. There is really nothing to respond to in regards to Montreal. You can think they are a better baseball market, there is actually nothing to back that up but you are free to hold that opinion.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Yeah I'd have to confirm those numbers before believing they were averaging close to 30k. I remember going to a lot of games where the announced attendance was around 15k and the actual attendance was closer to 10k.

I'm assuming you lived in Montreal when the ownership quit trying to win. Obviously fans were going to turn against a team ran like that.

Montreal pretty much never had good attendance though. Not just in the last few years… yes it was putrid then and had a lot to do with the stadium and ownership, but for the Expos were a bad organization for a long time. They made the playoffs once in 36 years.

cue ‘BUT WHAT ABOUT 94 WHEN THEY WOULD HAVE WON ALL OF THE WORLD SERIES COMBINED!!!!’

Guess what their avg attendance was? 24k per game. 8th lowest in the league. That’s pathetic for what was the best team in baseball.

You can hate on Blue Jay fans all you want but your opinions aren’t backed up by facts at all.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Ok maybe I shouldn't have assumed you have always lived out east, my bad but it doesn't change anything I said. You didn't really present any facts though. You just stated that I was wrong. Maybe you call saying 20k+ during the bad years a fact but it's not helping your argument. That's awful attendance for a city the size of Toronto. That's also the announced attendance not the actual. The Jays sold season tickets to the 500 level for years at $100/year and maybe 25% of them actually showed up most nights.

I also gave you reason why the Expos attendance was bad which you chose to ignore. Things weren't even close to being equal for the two teams.

Dude… your argument makes no sense.

Jays tickets were more expensive than Expos tickets. Toronto is a more expensive city to live in than Montreal.

You say Jays sold season tickets for cheap which inflated attendance numbers… what do you think the expos were charging? The attendance was low because the team historically was bad, the stadium was a dump in a terrible area of Montreal, ownership sucked, and in general people in Montreal weren’t that interested in baseball.

There is like zero evidence to support that in any circumstance the population of Montreal, overall, cared much about the team.

 

[DaaaaB's]

2019 MLB Attendance - Major League Baseball - ESPN

Check out this 2019 report of MLB attendance sortable by both baseball stadium and team.

www.espn.com

It is all here. In year 3 of a rebuild they averaged 21K a game which is the lowest it has gotten in over 10 years and still better then a number of other markets average generally in good and bad times. In 2017 with an 86 loss team they averaged almost 40K a game. I am not trying to say there aren't fair weather fans of the Jays in Toronto but there is just an extremely loyal base following of the team that doesn't bail. There is really nothing to respond to in regards to Montreal. You can think they are a better baseball market, there is actually nothing to back that up but you are free to hold that opinion.

Those numbers actually prove how many fair weather fans the Jays have. Attendance goes up when they're good and then goes back to bottom 3rd of the league when they're bad. That doesn't happen to teams like the Dodgers, Cardinals, Yankees etc. Attendance was high in 2017 because of how good they were the previous seasons. By 2019 it was barely over half that. Same thing happened in the 90's/2000's after they won the two world series. That's the definition of fair weather fans. Obviously, they do have loyal fans too just like every team does. Jays just have a lot less than most teams.

I never said Montreal was a better baseball market. I said they're the same which maybe now I can see isn't true. Hard to say though considering things weren't even close to being equal. Either way, neither city is a good baseball market.

 

[DaaaaB's]

Dude… your argument makes no sense.

Jays tickets were more expensive than Expos tickets. Toronto is a more expensive city to live in than Montreal.

You say Jays sold season tickets for cheap which inflated attendance numbers… what do you think the expos were charging? The attendance was low because the team historically was bad, the stadium was a dump in a terrible area of Montreal, ownership sucked, and in general people in Montreal weren’t that interested in baseball.

There is like zero evidence to support that in any circumstance the population of Montreal, overall, cared much about the team.

That's a good point about the tickets. Do you not think though, that those first 3 reasons you listed are why people in general weren't interested in baseball?

You said they still had low attendance in '94 so maybe I'm wrong about that. I do wonder what the attendance would've been if the stadium was downtown though.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

That's a good point about the tickets. Do you not think though, that those first 3 reasons you listed are why people in general weren't interested in baseball?

You said they still had low attendance in '94 so maybe I'm wrong about that. I do wonder what the attendance would've been if the stadium was downtown though.

Those factors about team performance, stadium, location, ownership absolutely played a part in low attendance. Like any one of those things can drive down interest. All of them working negatively all at once makes it really difficult.

If you rectified all of those issues, I’m sure you’d get more people interested but to your earlier point, those are likely the ‘fair weather fans’ you were complaining about in Toronto. They only go to games under ideal circumstances. The truth of the matter is that Montreal just didn’t have enough people invested in the team, from ownership down to the fans.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Those numbers actually prove how many fair weather fans the Jays have. Attendance goes up when they're good and then goes back to bottom 3rd of the league when they're bad. That doesn't happen to teams like the Dodgers, Cardinals, Yankees etc. Attendance was high in 2017 because of how good they were the previous seasons. By 2019 it was barely over half that. Same thing happened in the 90's/2000's after they won the two world series. That's the definition of fair weather fans. Obviously, they do have loyal fans too just like every team does. Jays just have a lot less than most teams.

I never said Montreal was a better baseball market. I said they're the same which maybe now I can see isn't true. Hard to say though considering things weren't even close to being equal. Either way, neither city is a good baseball market.

NY, LA, STL are historically excellent baseball cities. Just because Toronto isn’t in that class when it comes to loyal fandom doesn’t mean they’re bad. When the team is good they will be close to top in the league. When they’re bad they will be middle of the road. That’s pretty reasonable… and in fact the way that it should be.

When your team sucks ass you shouldn’t be spending money to line the owners pockets. The incentive should be to put a good team on the field and people will show up to watch and support. That’s the way life works pretty much everywhere else.

 

[DaaaaB's]

Those factors about team performance, stadium, location, ownership absolutely played a part in low attendance. Like any one of those things can drive down interest. All of them working negatively all at once makes it really difficult.

If you rectified all of those issues, I’m sure you’d get more people interested but to your earlier point, those are likely the ‘fair weather fans’ you were complaining about in Toronto. They only go to games under ideal circumstances. The truth of the matter is that Montreal just didn’t have enough people invested in the team, from ownership down to the fans.

Good point. I'll concede.

NY, LA, STL are historically excellent baseball cities. Just because Toronto isn’t in that class when it comes to loyal fandom doesn’t mean they’re bad. When the team is good they will be close to top in the league. When they’re bad they will be middle of the road. That’s pretty reasonable… and in fact the way that it should be.

When your team sucks ass you shouldn’t be spending money to line the owners pockets. The incentive should be to put a good team on the field and people will show up to watch and support. That’s the way life works pretty much everywhere else.

I kind of agree but they've been in the bottom third of the league quite a few times and considering the population of Toronto compared to a lot of other cities in the league I feel like they should be higher. Maybe Baseball being more popular in the States in general is a factor though.

I definitely agree with your 2nd paragraph. I'm not making fun of Jays fans either, I've been one for 35 years. Just calling it like I see it, right or wrong.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Good point. I'll concede.

I kind of agree but they've been in the bottom third of the league quite a few times and considering the population of Toronto compared to a lot of other cities in the league I feel like they should be higher. Maybe Baseball being more popular in the States in general is a factor though.

I definitely agree with your 2nd paragraph. I'm not making fun of Jays fans either, I've been one for 35 years. Just calling it like I see it, right or wrong.

I’m definitely with you that Toronto has a decent amount of fair weather baseball fans but I guess it just doesn’t bother me a ton. I expect with the new renovations to the stadium we’ll probably see more consistently higher numbers regardless of team performance.

 

[DaaaaB's]

I’m definitely with you that Toronto has a decent amount of fair weather baseball fans but I guess it just doesn’t bother me a ton. I expect with the new renovations to the stadium we’ll probably see more consistently higher numbers regardless of team performance.

I wouldn't say it bothers me a ton either. I do find it a bit annoying when friends of mine who barely watch them even in good years all of a sudden act like they're the biggest Jays fans ever when they make playoffs. I guess at the end of the day they're still cheering for the same team I do so I shouldn't let it annoy me. You're probably right about the stadium renovations. It's current state definitely isn't helping bring fans in.

 

[Vamos Rafa]

It’s just mind-boggling to me that to this day, there’s only been one true southern team (Braves) considering that so many players and greats have been from the South. Can’t really consider the Texas teams as “southern” teams. Texas is their own world. Then you have hybrid southern cities like St. Louis and Cincinnati. But yeah, only one team in the SEC territory still surprises me.

 

[Halladay]

Name some teams you’d like to see fold.

If given the opportunity between expanding and adding more teams im going with the latter. Relocation does not mean expansion to me. Completely different. This MLB is becoming much like soccer in Europe. Only have a handful of teams that can really win the World Series and that isnt going to change anytime soon. That is one of their biggest problems imo.

 

[MMC]

 

[Vamos Rafa]

If given the opportunity between expanding and adding more teams im going with the latter. Relocation does not mean expansion to me. Completely different. This MLB is becoming much like soccer in Europe. Only have a handful of teams that can really win the World Series and that isnt going to change anytime soon. That is one of their biggest problems imo.

Nah man you didn’t give me what I was looking for.

What team(s) would you like to fold?

BTW, baseball is a lot more random than soccer. Playoff baseball is isn’t really a great indicator of who the best team really is.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

I, as I’m sure many, would love for MTL to BECOME a baseball city and get another team. A downtown stadium is an absolute must.

Montreal isn’t a big city and it’s not a super car dependant city either. The stadium needs to be downtown for accessibility for locals as well as visitors.

I’d say something in the 35k range would work well. Definitely not over 40k.

Obviously a lot of things needs to change for MTL to support an mlb team. Ownership and new stadium is a big chunk of it but culture and buy in from the fans and province needs to be there as well.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

Yes, it will work. Over 4 million people in Montreal. 8.5 million in Quebec with most of those within a few hours drive of Montreal. Over 10 million including the maritimes. That's not mentioning the millions of people in eastern Ontario that would check out some games.

The market only has one team in the big-4 sports leagues, and 1 MLS team and 1 CFL team. Plenty of corporate and discretionary income available for an MLB team. Bell would almost certainly be owners of the team and the Expos would provide them with 162+ days of much-needed content on TSN and hundreds of thousands of eyeballs per game.

 

[KevFu]

The Expos only had 2 million in attendance (25K avg) 4 times in their history, all between 1979-1983, they really never drew well, no matter if the ownership gave up or not

That kind of a comparison is a "different era" problem, though.

The Expos ONLY had 2 million in attendance 4 times... but in 1983 (when they averaged 28,650), that was FOURTH in MLB. League average was 21,000.

Today, 28,650 would be 17th.

Sports didn't become a huge entertainment business until the late 80s early 90s. So it's not an apples to apples comparison.

 

[Unholy Diver]

That kind of a comparison is a "different era" problem, though.

The Expos ONLY had 2 million in attendance 4 times... but in 1983 (when they averaged 28,650), that was FOURTH in MLB. League average was 21,000.

Today, 28,650 would be 17th.

Sports didn't become a huge entertainment business until the late 80s early 90s. So it's not an apples to apples comparison.

Thats fine but look at their 90 thru 96 attendance, the teams were mostly good and they still drew between 900K and 1.7M never better than 10th in the NL in that span despite finishing 1st or 2nd in 4 of the 7 yrs

 

[KevFu]

Over their first 20 years, total Montreal attendance was basically right at MLB league average total attendance (about 400 per game below). Which is totally fine for long term sustainability.

But then Montreal's attendance rank starts sinking and gets further and further below league average until the Expos moved.

One thing that happened between "being league average" and "moving" was 16 teams opening brand new baseball stadiums for their teams. Those stadiums were fan-friendly and revenue generating, encouraging fans to walk around and spend money.

And the Expos were stuck in a 1960s-model stadium, where the goal was "Quickest possible entrance/exit" and all the sections were copies of each other in terms of fan accommodations/concessions.

 

[KevFu]

Thats fine but look at their 90 thru 96 attendance, the teams were mostly good and they still drew between 900K and 1.7M never better than 10th in the NL in that span despite finishing 1st or 2nd in 4 of the 7 yrs

Yeah, If you look at MLB average attendance from 1969 to 1988 (20 years), it's 18,884 per game.
Montreal was at 18,397....
From 1990 to 1996, Montreal averaged 17,321 fans per game. That's not a big drop at all.

But MLB average attendance grew to 27,618 per game, enabling people to come up with all kinds of horrific attendance stats about Montreal.

Montreal had a 1960s-80s stadium, and in the 1990s a slew of teams opening gorgeous new stadiums which (with MLB expansion) made the attendance explode.

MLB average attendance went from 26k in 1992 to 30k in 1993... when Colorado and Miami got teams.

Colorado sold 4.48 million tickets their first season, averaging 55,000 per game. Montreal's average of 20,200 would have been 15th in MLB in 1983, but it was 28th in 1993.


The Expos basically got left behind when the Stadium Train took baseball to a different place.

 

[EpochLink]

It was always going to be an expansion team for Vegas. A’s were just doing mlb’s research for them in Vegas while trying to get the best deal possible in Oakland.

A’s stay in Oakland

 

[KevFu]

Also, for all the talk about attendance... does it really matter?

The Blue Jays sold zero tickets in 2020 because of the pandemic. After after sustaining those financial losses... raised their payroll from $117 million in 2019 to $135 in 2021; then $171 and will be over $190 in 2023.

It boils down to: does an owner have the expansion fee and a stadium deal? The first two are getting expansion teams (After Oakland or Tampa get a stadium deal done, since MLB wants a musical chairs situation).

And then hopefully baseball can make a configuration that makes sense and makes things BETTER, but I'm terrified they'll make it worse.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Montreal.
Portland.