Potential Atlanta NHL Expansion Team Thread

[Tawnos]

Wouldn't this be like the Senators playing out in Kanata right now or when Coyotes were in Glendale? Keep hearing that it's too far away from the majority of their STH's.

My understanding is that it's the opposite of those cases. It'd be more like if the Coyotes built their arena in the eastern suburbs in the first place

 

[Mike Jones]

Wouldn't this be like the Senators playing out in Kanata right now or when Coyotes were in Glendale? Keep hearing that it's too far away from the majority of their STH's.

Doesn't it depend on where the fans and money are? I didn't think the hockey fan base was in downtown Atlanta. I thought it was in places like Gwinnett.

 

[Mike Jones]

I don't think public benefits of arenas/sports teams outweighs as much monetary loss as something like the USPS, but I think some level of monetary loss can be acceptable.

In the Calgary situation we would have recovered only half of our investment in a 30 year time window. We also have rapidly increasing social needs that require our investment. We need radically expanded police and fire departments (One of our urban communities has over 60,000 residents and only one fire engine in its fire hall). We also have to establish a professionalized outreach team to address social issues like homelessness, addictions and mental health issues. Those are more important than enriching whiny billionaires who want everything for nothing.

I'm sure the people of Atlanta have their concerns and issues that need addressing and none of those involve the need to build an arena for a greedy, narcissistic league.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Wouldn't this be like the Senators playing out in Kanata right now or when Coyotes were in Glendale? Keep hearing that it's too far away from the majority of their STH's.

Best case study we have...Braves moved from the city-center to the burbs about 6 or so years ago and attendance and revenue have gone up.

 

[Tawnos]

In the Calgary situation we would have recovered only half of our investment in a 30 year time window. We also have rapidly increasing social needs that require our investment. We need radically expanded police and fire departments (One of our urban communities has over 60,000 residents and only one fire engine in its fire hall). We also have to establish a professionalized outreach team to address social issues like homelessness, addictions and mental health issues. Those are more important than enriching whiny billionaires who want everything for nothing.

I'm sure the people of Atlanta have their concerns and issues that need addressing and none of those involve the need to build an arena for a greedy, narcissistic league.

There are definitely higher priorities, I'm in agreement there, but I reject the idea that it's either/or.

I don't even disagree with the angry rhetoric, I just don't really want to engage in it on BoH. It's out of place.

 

[Mike Jones]

There are definitely higher priorities, I'm in agreement there, but I reject the idea that it's either/or.

I don't even disagree with the angry rhetoric, I just don't really want to engage in it on BoH. It's out of place.

You're right - Why would we want to talk about the financing of NHL arenas here?

 

[Smirnov2Chistov]

I’ll put my conspiracy hat on for a second.

Could Atlanta be a place holder for (maybe) another team that’s failing with keeping up with attendance issues? (Phoenix, now Winnipeg?)

 

[RoyalAir]

Doesn't it depend on where the fans and money are? I didn't think the hockey fan base was in downtown Atlanta. I thought it was in places like Gwinnett.

Not Gwinnett. The hockey center of Georgia is absolutely in Alpharetta.

If this arena project were in Gwinnett, we could have Glendale comparisons. Alpharetta is perfect location for the former STHs.

 

[Tawnos]

You're right - Why would we want to talk about the financing of NHL arenas here?

That wasn't what I was talking about, at all. I was talking about the emotionally charged language you use. We can discuss this topic without that stuff.

If you wanted to say that essential services in Calgary like police and fire need more monetary investment put into them than important, but unessential investments in civic pride and city culture, I'd believe you. It doesn't have anything to do with my opinions on billionaires or the league.

 

[Mike Jones]

That wasn't what I was talking about, at all. I was talking about the emotionally charged language you use. We can discuss this topic without that stuff.

If you wanted to say that essential services in Calgary like police and fire need more monetary investment put into them than important, but unessential investments in civic pride and city culture, I'd believe you. It doesn't have anything to do with my opinions on billionaires or the league.

It's frustrating to read so many opinions that place billionaires above the average taxpayer, the homeless, the mentally ill, etc.

 

[Tawnos]

It's frustrating to read so many opinions that place billionaires above the average taxpayer, the homeless, the mentally ill, etc.

It is but like I said before, I tend to take a more balanced approach and I tend to take the fact of there being billionaires involved out of the equation (at least for the purposes of BoH). I boil it down to whether an arena is a worthwhile investment for a city to provide for its residents.

I really do think the choice, in most cases, between one or the other is a false one. Well-managed, adequately funded cities should be able to provide both essential services and unessential but meaningful infrastructure. If Calgary is in a place right now where they can't, that's fair enough. They shouldn't be at that point and only are because either there was mismanagement in their past, or their tax base is undertaxed (though neither changes the reality of the situation today). The latter is more often true than people realize and a good amount of that, at least in the United States, is that the rich aren't putting in their fair share.

I also don't blame sports team owners for pushing for public investment, but there's a limit to how far it's okay to take it. I don't like when they resort to threats to relocate to squeeze every possible penny they can out of a place.

 

[Mike Jones]

I’ll put my conspiracy hat on for a second.

Could Atlanta be a place holder for (maybe) another team that’s failing with keeping up with attendance issues? (Phoenix, now Winnipeg?)

Maybe down the road but doesn't the league really like Houston?

If the league really wanted to make money they'd find a way to return to QC and go to Hamilton but they obviously prefer southern locations - away from things like ice and winter and hockey fans.

 

[Tawnos]

I’ll put my conspiracy hat on for a second.

Could Atlanta be a place holder for (maybe) another team that’s failing with keeping up with attendance issues? (Phoenix, now Winnipeg?)

I tend not to think so. I think the NHL would prefer smaller markets to be there for future relocations rather than large markets that are more likely to be able to have an owner who can afford the expansion fee.

 

[StreetHawk]

You would see a suburb of a major city build an arena unless they had it locked in with a primary tenant like Glendale, Boward County in Fla.

KC is different as that became the primary venue for indoor entertainment events so the city that funded it has made it a profitable venture.

Can’t see them breaking ground unless they had it in the bag that they got a team.

 

[RoyalAir]

Maybe down the road but doesn't the league really like Houston?

If the league really wanted to make money they'd find a way to return to QC and go to Hamilton but they obviously prefer southern locations - away from things like ice and winter and hockey fans.

It appears the opposite is true. Winnipeg loses money, and is having a PR battle with their fans right now. The franchise has raised in value, but they are not making money at the moment from my understanding on these very boards.

 

[Mike Jones]

It appears the opposite is true. Winnipeg loses money, and is having a PR battle with their fans right now. The franchise has raised in value, but they are not making money at the moment from my understanding on these very boards.

Hopefully the playoffs help turn that around. Covid seems to have knocked everybody for a loop.

 

[GreenHornet]

Not Gwinnett. The hockey center of Georgia is absolutely in Alpharetta.

If this arena project were in Gwinnett, we could have Glendale comparisons. Alpharetta is perfect location for the former STHs.

I don't think the Gwinnett-Glendale comparison is exactly apples to apples. I think Gwinnett would do pretty well, especially now with Battery-like Gas South District mixed used development surrounding the arena there, which I don't think Glendale had. Or does it? Of course, the arena would have to be expanded.

That said, I think you're 100 percent correct that Alpharetta would be a much better location for a new arena. It already has the Avalon district nearby (which appears to be a big reason why the North Point Mall area is fading away), AND, as you point out, it's more centrally-located to a potential NHL fan base. While I think Gwinnett could draw pretty well out of Gwinnett, northern DeKalb and eastern Forsyth counties, Alpaharetta would be more convenient to other big areas like north Fulton, the rest of Forsyth and all of Cobb counties, in addition to Gwinnett and DeKalb.

 

[StreetHawk]

It appears the opposite is true. Winnipeg loses money, and is having a PR battle with their fans right now. The franchise has raised in value, but they are not making money at the moment from my understanding on these very boards.

Fans buying tickets on their own have held up. It's the corporate purchases of tickets that is down. Something that their sales team needs to fix and it's taking the Chairman to speak up on it. They need to figure out how to turn it around. Not like they are relying on just 3-5 companies to purchase 3000 seats. Have to get dozens of them to purchase 25-50 tickets each depending on the size of the company.

 

[GreenHornet]

It's also about revenue from the arena and that is, again, the main problem with the negotiations here in Calgary. It should also be a cautionary tale to people building arenas in places like Atlanta. If you want to make money you simply cannot have an NHL franchise as a tenant - at least not until they drastically reduce their insane demands.

This, of course, was at the center of the treachery Atlanta $pirit Septocluster™ as they dumped the Thrashers. They

Completely agree and that was actually part of the Thrashers history. When A$G put the team up for sale, a number of potential local ownership groups came forward. But then they saw the cost of leasing the arena and quickly backed away. Team owners really do need to own the arena as well.

This, of course, was at the center of the treachery Atlanta $pirit Septocluster™ as they dumped the Thrashers,. As has been pointed out numerous times, they initially bought the Thrashers in order to gain control of the Hawks and operating rights to (then-)Philips Arena. When they dumped the Thrashers, there WERE (contrary to what has been portrayed by the Atlanta naysayers) several parties interested in buying all three entities. Only, they didn't want to sell all three at that time. They only wanted to dump the Thrashers and get them out of the arena. Their scheme was exposed when they entered into exclusive "negotiating" rights with former San Diego Padres owner for only the Hawks and Philips Arena. This was done to block any potential buyers who wanted to buy all three (Thrashers, Hawks, Philips) or buy the Thrashers and negotiate in good faith for reasonable use of Philips.

As Atlanta Thrashers Move Nears, Hawks Sale 'Negotiations' Reportedly End

The Atlanta Spirit Group has been negotiating for the sale of the Atlanta Hawks and Philips Arena for about a week or so with John Moores, a former San Diego Padres owner. That exclusive...

atlanta.sbnation.com

 

[RoyalAir]

When they dumped the Thrashers, there WERE (contrary to what has been portrayed by the Atlanta naysayers) several parties interested in buying all three entities. Only, they didn't want to sell all three at that time. They only wanted to dump the Thrashers and get them out of the arena. Their scheme was exposed when they entered into exclusive "negotiating" rights with former San Diego Padres owner for only the Hawks and Philips Arena. This was done to block any potential buyers who wanted to buy all three (Thrashers, Hawks, Philips) or buy the Thrashers and negotiate in good faith for reasonable use of Philips.

As Atlanta Thrashers Move Nears, Hawks Sale 'Negotiations' Reportedly End

The Atlanta Spirit Group has been negotiating for the sale of the Atlanta Hawks and Philips Arena for about a week or so with John Moores, a former San Diego Padres owner. That exclusive...

atlanta.sbnation.com

Oh my, I completely forgot about that. I remember that they wanted them split, but yes, they entered that sham negotiation window with the Padres guy just to ensure that buying the trio, or even a minority stake in the Hawks, was impossible.

Holy hell I hate those idiots.

 

[MMC]

 

[ponder719]

If the league really wanted to make money they'd find a way to return to QC and go to Hamilton but they obviously prefer southern locations - away from things like ice and winter and hockey fans.

This I don't think I buy. I'll admit to being a bit of a novice, but for all people think that teams that fill the building make the most money for the league, I think that's probably the smallest component of it.

First, we're already hearing from Winnipeg that even though the gate has been reasonable in terms of number of tickets sold to individuals, they're having huge trouble because corporate money dried up. Quebec isn't so much larger than Winnipeg from a corporate standpoint that they won't be at risk of duplicating this situation if the economy gets bad.

Second, what I think the NHL really cares about is growth opportunity, not current value. Sure, you could waltz the Nordiques into Quebec and get lines out the door for years. You better hope that you maintain that level of fervor, though, because you have about 750,000 tickets to sell every year, in a market of 1.1 million people. If the level of interest drops, it gets a lot harder to close that gap. In Houston, you may have a much lower percentage of the population wanting to see Aeros games, but you don't need anywhere near as high a percentage of 7.2M people to fill that 730,000 seats (Toyota Center has a slightly lower capacity for hockey than Centre Vidéotron.) In Houston, you only need 10% and change of the MSA to buy 1 ticket each to fill that arena to capacity every game. In Quebec, you need 68% of the population to do that.

That said, I happen to think the correct mix for the NHL is a bit of both: some growth markets, some traditionalist markets, so that the league continues to be a unique marketing opportunity in the sports landscape. It's just a question of finding ways to include those traditional markets without repeating the severe financial issues that cost us those teams the first time.

 

[Major4Boarding]

So demolishing North Point Mall is a go?

 

[GreenHornet]

Not necessarily directly related to a potential arena in the area, but it sure would be a side benefit. Shuttle service could easily access the area via the North Springs MARTA station (the northern end of rapid rail Red Line). Of course, they could also expand rail service further north, but I don't think that's going to happen.

 

[nhlfan79]

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