[Poll] Zibanejad @10M or Eichel?

[Rempe73]

Sorry but I'm not going to dismiss performance no matter the circumstances.
Where was playoff warrior Zib?

Listen, you have to be able to identify the players that will bring you over the top.
Example, Goodrow.
He does the necessary things that make the difference.
Zib/ JE have yet to prove that they're capable.
Insert a MacKinnon and you have a completely different team..

Not everyone is MacKinnon lol. Thinking back on the past few years, I realized how good we have it with Mika. He’s honestly so undervalued. Not that many players can impact a game the way he can, both offensively and defensively, with skill and size. The only issue is that he’s a bit too opportunistic instead of driving play consistently.

 

[NYR]

Not everyone is MacKinnon lol. Thinking back on the past few years, I realized how good we have it with Mika. He’s honestly so undervalued. Not that many players can impact a game the way he can, both offensively and defensively, with skill and size. The only issue is that he’s a bit too opportunistic instead of driving play consistently.

Obviously but I wasn't the one who brought him in as a comparison.

You want to pay Zib $10+M a year?

Sorry but he just hasn't done enough to warrant that kind of payday IMO

 

[Machinehead]

Sorry but I'm not going to dismiss performance no matter the circumstances.
Where was playoff warrior Zib?

Listen, you have to be able to identify the players that will bring you over the top.
Example, Goodrow.
He does the necessary things that make the difference.
Zib/ JE have yet to prove that they're capable.
Insert a MacKinnon and you have a completely different team..

Bro, it was 3 games.

 

[NYR]

Bro, it was 3 games.

I don't care. It was 3 very important games but again I'll blame DQ for that.

With that aside though, Do you really like Zbad enough to pay him?

It's a tough situation to be in as GM

 

[Machinehead]

I don't care. It was 3 very important games but again I'll blame DQ for that.

With that aside though, Do you really like Zbad enough to pay him?

It's a tough situation to be in as GM

No, but I don't think we have much of a choice. He's our #1 center for this window of contention.

With how young Fox/Laf/Kakko are, we'll have another one down the road.

 

[bernmeister]

Toronto is so unlikely to trade Mathews in his prime. That is why when a guy like JE becomes available you have to do your due diligence and take a look. These types of centers at age 24 do not become available often.

You persist in saying the bold.
Sure, right now there is no pain.
But the closer to the end of that 2nd season, pressure is gonna build

they don't want a Tavares on them where he walks with nothing coming back
that should be the dominant consideration

if this was like 5 or 6 years or more down the road, I could understand a posture of 'I'll deal with it then'.
But that's not the case. they have a year ish at most to go there or suffer the consequences.
And the more term Matthews has, the more his contract is worth.

 

[bernmeister]

I love how when I’m scrolling up on threads I can tell your posts right away LOL you are the goat poster

You are most kind, my good man.

 

[brakeyawself]

Stamkos plays around Tampa's "second" and "third" lines because that's what he is except, no, he doesn't play center. He was Cirelli's wing the entire year. They get second line minutes if Killorn is healthy but it's their third best line, or was.

I cannot stress enough that Tampa won the Cup without him.

I don't see what numbering the lines matters if he's still one of their highest offensive producers. Whomever he's out there with and whatever line he's on, he's having success. And just from looking through hockey line sites that can trace games back, his line is quite often the most efficient in the game for TB.

And I understand they won a Cup without him. But they also finished, all be it 3rd in the central, within 5 points of the leading team, and that's without Kucherov all year. I think asking anyone, one of, if not the best team in the league the past few years, would be the Lightning. And certainly many people's favorite to win the Cup. I still think this team would have success missing anyone but Vasilevsky and Hedman. Otherwise, I think even with a major injury, they'd be one of the most likely bets to win a Cup, dealing with playoff series etc.. I think they could have even won without Point or certainly without guys like Cirelli. Kerfoot, who became an important player for them missed much of the playoffs. And Gourde didn't continue his regular season scoring success but still played well. But they are so deep, with versatile players like Goodrow and Coleman that stepped up too. I really think they could win without anyone but Hedman, Vas and and probably Kucherov. At least the way he played in this post-season.

 

[brakeyawself]

You persist in saying the bold.
Sure, right now there is no pain.
But the closer to the end of that 2nd season, pressure is gonna build

they don't want a Tavares on them where he walks with nothing coming back
that should be the dominant consideration

if this was like 5 or 6 years or more down the road, I could understand a posture of 'I'll deal with it then'.
But that's not the case. they have a year ish at most to go there or suffer the consequences.
And the more term Matthews has, the more his contract is worth.

I still think what he said in bold about Matthews is correct. He's the very last player they would let go of willingly. Above Marner, Nylander and especially Tavares.

Matthews contract runs out ONE year before Taveres'. They just have to figure out how to pay that year and then they can let Tavares walk. Or, perhaps he will get angry enough that he's like the 5th forward in ATOI/G and lift his NMC. Not sure he would, be it's not out of the question if things keep going like this past season did. He's becoming more and more a secondary piece of the team and he's not use to that. In fact, I think he was scared of Barzal when he was with the Islanders. That Barzal would surpass him. And IMO Barzal has surpassed him by leading the Islanders deep into the playoffs 2 years in a row. He does so much for that team that Tavares didn't or couldn't do. Like sacrificing his own offensive stats in favor of doing what's necessary to win. Something I've never seen Tavares do. I just can't see the Leafs CHOOSING to keep Tavares over Matthews. Which means if letting Tavares walk is what it takes to keep Matthews, they will.

And if he did leave, it would probably be because one of the equivalent big market clubs were able to afford him or acquire him. But Leafs actually TRADING Matthews seems most implausible. Things would have to deteriorate enormously from where they are now for that to happen. Like galactic levels of deterioration.

 

[brakeyawself]

Sorry but I'm not going to dismiss performance no matter the circumstances.
Where was playoff warrior Zib?

Listen, you have to be able to identify the players that will bring you over the top.
Example, Goodrow.
He does the necessary things that make the difference.
Zib/ JE have yet to prove that they're capable.
Insert a MacKinnon and you have a completely different team..

At least Zib HAS performed in the playoffs. JE hasn't ever made it to the playoffs, so we have no clue. But he's only played more than 68 games twice in 6 years, so I'm not surprised he couldn't at least drag that club to one playoff appearance in 6 seasons. I'm sure he would have to sit out a bunch of games and rest up if he did make it to the playoffs though. Don't want the playoffs to coincide with his annual stints in the press box.

That doesn't take away from how sad Zibs playoff record is. His best run clearly in 16/17 where he did score 9 points in 12 games. Not too shabby. But not impressed.

And yea, MacKinnon is in a different league than Zibs. And MacKinnon in a different league than Eichel too. People keep saying things like "Eichel is a top 5 center or top 10 center in the NHL." How? When has he ever proven that? He's proved he could put up points when healthy. He's at minimum a PPG type of player, with the ability to even score 90 in a full season. But that doesn't automatically make him a top 5 or 10 center. You have your obvious better centers like McDavid, MacKinnon and Matthews. And then you have your less obvious ones like Point, Aho, Draisatl, Scheifle and Bergeron. Toews, Stamkos and Kopitar were in that mix, but I am not sure they still are today. They probably aren't today. And I'm sure I am forgetting a few. There's also an argument for Barkov when he's healthy. And shoot, I think I would even put Tavares ahead of him, even though I can't stand Tavares and think Eichel is MOST like him as far as what he brings to a team, in regard to leadership, drive, ability to carry a team, or rather, the lack of ability in these areas. But I would even, until JE proves he can do more, put Barzal in that mix for what he does for the Islanders. So Eichel, in terms of talent, sure he's probably one of the top 5-10 most talented centers in the NHL. But he's not one of the to 5-10 best players/centers in the NHL. And I don't even really think it's close. He'd probably be somewhere in the Elias Pettersson range, super talented but mostly unproven. Scoring aside.

 

[brakeyawself]

Obviously but I wasn't the one who brought him in as a comparison.

You want to pay Zib $10+M a year?

Sorry but he just hasn't done enough to warrant that kind of payday IMO

Eichel also hasn't done enough to warrant that kind of payday. Either has Elias Pettersson. Frankly, Tavares hasn't warranted that kind of payday. But they all still get it because that's what centers in the upper echelon get paid.

If we could sign Zibs to a 2-4 year contract at 10 mil, I think it's worth doing. In the long run that's still cheaper than Eichel. And we arrange Zibs contract to run out when say Matthews or even a Lindholm or something becomes a UFA. Then we can decide how to spend that money. We have Panarin's contract coming up end of 2025-26 and I am really not sure if we are going to be able to re-sign him, without Eichel. And without factoring in a longer term contract for Zibanijad.

I do agree though, Zibs would be better at 8-9. But I am just not sure you're going to get a guy with his ability, at this point in their career, for that money. Maybe if you sign a guy when he's 23 or something and still hasn't reached their ceiling. At least, that's what we are going to have to do with players like Laf, Kravtsov, Kakko, Sheisty, Lundqvist or whomever. They are all going to have paydays coming to them. At least if we signed Zib to a 2-4 year deal, if it were possible, that gives us time to work on finding and grooming a replacement for him, or at least gives us a shot to get whatever Free Agent we might be targeting. Personally, I think have 10+ mil come off the books, the year Matthews is supposed to be an UFA, isn't the worst idea. He'd have a lot to think about if he were considering between the Leafs, Rangers and maybe another team like Detroit gets in there.

But we would stand a decent chance. And if we did end up signing a guy like Matthews, well, it's worth whatever we have to do. Way more than Eichel. Matthews on a line with either Laf or Panarin and either Kakko or Kravtsov..... nice to dream about. Laf's assists would skyrocket. But I do think it's most likely Matthews stays in Toronto.

 

[jay from jersey]

At least Zib HAS performed in the playoffs. JE hasn't ever made it to the playoffs, so we have no clue. But he's only played more than 68 games twice in 6 years, so I'm not surprised he couldn't at least drag that club to one playoff appearance in 6 seasons. I'm sure he would have to sit out a bunch of games and rest up if he did make it to the playoffs though. Don't want the playoffs to coincide with his annual stints in the press box.

That doesn't take away from how sad Zibs playoff record is. His best run clearly in 16/17 where he did score 9 points in 12 games. Not too shabby. But not impressed.

And yea, MacKinnon is in a different league than Zibs. And MacKinnon in a different league than Eichel too. People keep saying things like "Eichel is a top 5 center or top 10 center in the NHL." How? When has he ever proven that? He's proved he could put up points when healthy. He's at minimum a PPG type of player, with the ability to even score 90 in a full season. But that doesn't automatically make him a top 5 or 10 center. You have your obvious better centers like McDavid, MacKinnon and Matthews. And then you have your less obvious ones like Point, Aho, Draisatl, Scheifle and Bergeron. Toews, Stamkos and Kopitar were in that mix, but I am not sure they still are today. They probably aren't today. And I'm sure I am forgetting a few. There's also an argument for Barkov when he's healthy. And shoot, I think I would even put Tavares ahead of him, even though I can't stand Tavares and think Eichel is MOST like him as far as what he brings to a team, in regard to leadership, drive, ability to carry a team, or rather, the lack of ability in these areas. But I would even, until JE proves he can do more, put Barzal in that mix for what he does for the Islanders. So Eichel, in terms of talent, sure he's probably one of the top 5-10 most talented centers in the NHL. But he's not one of the to 5-10 best players/centers in the NHL. And I don't even really think it's close. He'd probably be somewhere in the Elias Pettersson range, super talented but mostly unproven. Scoring aside.

just food for thought, but Barkov couldn’t drag the panthers to the playoffs in a long time, and he had more overall help then Eichel in Buffalo.
I think it’s too hard to say how he’d do in the playoff setting until he actually gets some games. He could do really well, or he could not depending on the given circumstances. But most of the reasons Eichel gets high praise is that he’s literally been able to manufacture goals/ offense by himself. Even when his team has blown it it other ways. There have been multiple times against Toronto, the habs, and more where Eichel was the difference in them winning. He basically single handedly drove the offense enough to win, and they got decent enough goaltending and outside play to put those games in the win column.
Also, Eichel and Zibbys missed games in their first 5 years are pretty similar. This past season being the major difference with the neck injury.
Imo, Eichel drives the offense more then Zibby as a whole, and he younger. Those things are the major factors I would say he has going in his favor. Zibby really took a giant leap forward in terms of skills and consistency at age 25/26 for use. That’s the age range Eichel is coming into as well. I think both players would be better served not being captains. They are both enormous parts of their teams but some guys just shouldn’t have a letter imo. Not that either are passengers, but both would be better off if they are not that Guy. I think Fox is probably the next captain for NY, maybe LaF In the future. The injury is certainly a concern, but if he was traded here, I’m really interested to see how he does in a better environment with better line mates and a better overall team where is line isn’t counted on to produce 90-95% of the offense.
Him and LaF on 1 line, driving play, and Panarin on the other should be really tough to stop. Especially with an improved bottom 6 that does their job well and can provide offense from time to time.
Who knows, I guess we’ll see in time how this whole thing shakes out, for better or for worse.

 

[Idlerlee]

Is Eichel coming yet?

 

[NickyFotiu]

You persist in saying the bold.
Sure, right now there is no pain.
But the closer to the end of that 2nd season, pressure is gonna build

they don't want a Tavares on them where he walks with nothing coming back
that should be the dominant consideration

if this was like 5 or 6 years or more down the road, I could understand a posture of 'I'll deal with it then'.
But that's not the case. they have a year ish at most to go there or suffer the consequences.
And the more term Matthews has, the more his contract is worth.

I persist in saying a Mathews trade in his prime is unlikely because it is true and history bears that out for great centers in their primes. How many top 5 centers have been traded in their primes in the last 10 years?

Your speculation that Toronto would want to trade Mathews (23) to keep Tavares (30) is very far fetched.

 

[EdJovanovski]

At least Zib HAS performed in the playoffs. JE hasn't ever made it to the playoffs, so we have no clue. But he's only played more than 68 games twice in 6 years, so I'm not surprised he couldn't at least drag that club to one playoff appearance in 6 seasons. I'm sure he would have to sit out a bunch of games and rest up if he did make it to the playoffs though. Don't want the playoffs to coincide with his annual stints in the press box.

That doesn't take away from how sad Zibs playoff record is. His best run clearly in 16/17 where he did score 9 points in 12 games. Not too shabby. But not impressed.

And yea, MacKinnon is in a different league than Zibs. And MacKinnon in a different league than Eichel too. People keep saying things like "Eichel is a top 5 center or top 10 center in the NHL." How? When has he ever proven that? He's proved he could put up points when healthy. He's at minimum a PPG type of player, with the ability to even score 90 in a full season. But that doesn't automatically make him a top 5 or 10 center. You have your obvious better centers like McDavid, MacKinnon and Matthews. And then you have your less obvious ones like Point, Aho, Draisatl, Scheifle and Bergeron. Toews, Stamkos and Kopitar were in that mix, but I am not sure they still are today. They probably aren't today. And I'm sure I am forgetting a few. There's also an argument for Barkov when he's healthy. And shoot, I think I would even put Tavares ahead of him, even though I can't stand Tavares and think Eichel is MOST like him as far as what he brings to a team, in regard to leadership, drive, ability to carry a team, or rather, the lack of ability in these areas. But I would even, until JE proves he can do more, put Barzal in that mix for what he does for the Islanders. So Eichel, in terms of talent, sure he's probably one of the top 5-10 most talented centers in the NHL. But he's not one of the to 5-10 best players/centers in the NHL. And I don't even really think it's close. He'd probably be somewhere in the Elias Pettersson range, super talented but mostly unproven. Scoring aside.

Through their first 6 seasons in the NHL
MacKinnon: .88 PPG
Eichel: .95 PPG

 

[NickyFotiu]

I don't see what numbering the lines matters if he's still one of their highest offensive producers. Whomever he's out there with and whatever line he's on, he's having success. And just from looking through hockey line sites that can trace games back, his line is quite often the most efficient in the game for TB.

And I understand they won a Cup without him. But they also finished, all be it 3rd in the central, within 5 points of the leading team, and that's without Kucherov all year. I think asking anyone, one of, if not the best team in the league the past few years, would be the Lightning. And certainly many people's favorite to win the Cup. I still think this team would have success missing anyone but Vasilevsky and Hedman. Otherwise, I think even with a major injury, they'd be one of the most likely bets to win a Cup, dealing with playoff series etc.. I think they could have even won without Point or certainly without guys like Cirelli. Kerfoot, who became an important player for them missed much of the playoffs. And Gourde didn't continue his regular season scoring success but still played well. But they are so deep, with versatile players like Goodrow and Coleman that stepped up too. I really think they could win without anyone but Hedman, Vas and and probably Kucherov. At least the way he played in this post-season.

You are right. Panarin plays on our 2nd line often. Messier played on the second line often in Edm. Line numbers are sometimes meaningless. Stamkos has been a legit weapon when healthy for 10 years. Even this year at 30 years old he still had a higher points per game than Point, Palat, and Hedman.

 

[bernmeister]

I still think what he said in bold about Matthews is correct. He's the very last player they would let go of willingly. Above Marner, Nylander and especially Tavares.

Matthews contract runs out ONE year before Taveres'. They just have to figure out how to pay that year and then they can let Tavares walk. Or, perhaps he will get angry enough that he's like the 5th forward in ATOI/G and lift his NMC. Not sure he would, be it's not out of the question if things keep going like this past season did. He's becoming more and more a secondary piece of the team and he's not use to that. In fact, I think he was scared of Barzal when he was with the Islanders. That Barzal would surpass him. And IMO Barzal has surpassed him by leading the Islanders deep into the playoffs 2 years in a row. He does so much for that team that Tavares didn't or couldn't do. Like sacrificing his own offensive stats in favor of doing what's necessary to win. Something I've never seen Tavares do. I just can't see the Leafs CHOOSING to keep Tavares over Matthews. Which means if letting Tavares walk is what it takes to keep Matthews, they will.

And if he did leave, it would probably be because one of the equivalent big market clubs were able to afford him or acquire him. But Leafs actually TRADING Matthews seems most implausible. Things would have to deteriorate enormously from where they are now for that to happen. Like galactic levels of deterioration.

Respectfully, you're missing my point here.

Yes, he is LAST guy leafs let walk.
Him getting paid, finding cap for him is not the prob

And no matter how top heavy Leafs are or aren't, that is not the ? b'c AM would be top player on that roster either way.

The ?, which Leafs do NOT control, is what does AM want?

The premise is it is possible for AZ to offer hometown boy upside TOR can't match. Like I said, Matthews could be a candidate to be player-owner, then owner when he hangs up the skates. Plus he could better capitalize on every opportunity in AZ.

If AM passes on AZ, then Leafs have slight edge to keep him, tho Austin may still want to test the market or try something new.
But I see him pushing to have as much control as he wants.

 

[brakeyawself]

just food for thought, but Barkov couldn’t drag the panthers to the playoffs in a long time, and he had more overall help then Eichel in Buffalo.
I think it’s too hard to say how he’d do in the playoff setting until he actually gets some games. He could do really well, or he could not depending on the given circumstances. But most of the reasons Eichel gets high praise is that he’s literally been able to manufacture goals/ offense by himself. Even when his team has blown it it other ways. There have been multiple times against Toronto, the habs, and more where Eichel was the difference in them winning. He basically single handedly drove the offense enough to win, and they got decent enough goaltending and outside play to put those games in the win column.
Also, Eichel and Zibbys missed games in their first 5 years are pretty similar. This past season being the major difference with the neck injury.
Imo, Eichel drives the offense more then Zibby as a whole, and he younger. Those things are the major factors I would say he has going in his favor. Zibby really took a giant leap forward in terms of skills and consistency at age 25/26 for use. That’s the age range Eichel is coming into as well. I think both players would be better served not being captains. They are both enormous parts of their teams but some guys just shouldn’t have a letter imo. Not that either are passengers, but both would be better off if they are not that Guy. I think Fox is probably the next captain for NY, maybe LaF In the future. The injury is certainly a concern, but if he was traded here, I’m really interested to see how he does in a better environment with better line mates and a better overall team where is line isn’t counted on to produce 90-95% of the offense.
Him and LaF on 1 line, driving play, and Panarin on the other should be really tough to stop. Especially with an improved bottom 6 that does their job well and can provide offense from time to time.
Who knows, I guess we’ll see in time how this whole thing shakes out, for better or for worse.

I have no doubt if Eichel came to the Rangers, it would be fun, exciting to watch and we would say some amazing plays and offense in general. If he stays healthy. of course.

As far as his leadership, he doesn't have to be the captain, but I think he does need to play 200ft game, for the full 19-20 minutes a game or whatever he'd get. And do sacrifice his own offensive production, if that's what circumstances demand to get a win. And do the little things on the ice. Which, I honestly can't say whether or not he has from what I've seen in his Buffalo career. But I haven't watched him consistently like a Buffal0 fan would, so maybe there are shades of this that I just haven't witnessed.

And I've never heard anything specific, but I also hope he's at least a good locker room guy, not a diva, not selfish or whatever. But that's just I think, important for any player we bring in.

Keeping him healthy will be as important though as anything else. I really hope he doesn't become a guy we actually need to protect on the ice. Sometimes when you have a situation like that, you have to protect a guy, which limits what else a player or players can do at any given time and just something extra that they shouldn't have to worry about. And granted, there's always this element in hockey. But some guys really need more attention and protection than others. And usually it's guys that get injured often, who is also among your best players. And I'm not saying Eichel is a soft player necessarily, but he might need to be if he wants to stay on the ice. I don't know. There's no real way to determine if Eichel has some physiological or just biological reason he keeps getting injured. But if he's got something about him that makes him more susceptible to injury, that likely never goes away. Whatever it might be or multiple factors. Things like bone density, stiff ankles, low arches, and worst of all spine issues. If there is something specific, aside from the issue requiring surgery, like his skating technique, his gate, his feet, how he stands and moves, could have some aspect which causes more stress on his back muscles or spine or really anything in the body of this nature. And that's always a concern when you have a player who regularly misses time.

Anyway, it would be fun to have Eichel. Aside from the cap hit though, the biggest issue is giving up assets and which assets. And I think me and a great many Ranger fans are so invested in your current prospects that we'd feel jipped almost of we can't see them mature into players with the Rangers. Also, something we could probably get over quickly if Eichel came here and was the plaeyr everyone thinks he can be. But it's also a matter of those assets happen to be incredibly valuable ones, and incredibly valuable investments. And if they end up reaching their ceiling for another team, it's going to hurt seeing how much we actually gave up for him. Which could turn out to be more valuable in the long run than even Eichel at his best. If Drury gives Sabres close to what they want at least.

 

[bernmeister]

... We have Panarin's contract coming up end of 2025-26 and I am really not sure if we are going to be able to re-sign him, without Eichel. And without factoring in a longer term contract for Zibanijad. ...

...At least if we signed Zib to a 2-4 year deal, if it were possible, that gives us time to work on finding and grooming a replacement for him, or at least gives us a shot to get whatever Free Agent we might be targeting.

Personally, I think have 10+ mil come off the books, the year Matthews is supposed to be an UFA, isn't the worst idea. He'd have a lot to think about if he were considering between the Leafs, Rangers and maybe another team like Detroit gets in there.

But we would stand a decent chance. .....
But I do think it's most likely Matthews stays in Toronto.

1. Panarin is 5 yrs away. Wait at least 3.5 yrs before focusing there.

2. signing Zib to a 2-4 year deal
That is possible but only if he also concedes to us on no nmc and we have lots of flexibility to trade. And for that he will want mo $, not less. I'm thinking 10-10.5 for 3-4 yrs; less and think in an 11 per range.

3. {targeting (Matthews in)} the year is supposed to be an UFA is fine but we have no inside track or upper hand --- which as I point out, AZ does.

all we can otherwise do is max our current roster incl bluest blue chips so we have a lineup that appears likely to compete not just 1-2 years but upwards of 6-7 yrs; THAT would be something AM would notice.

Howev, like I said, AZ holds the best cards long term.
The smart play is, without gutting bluest blue chips, using Ranger $ to retain salary, offer Zib reduced +++ for 3 years of which we only get 2, but we are grateful for the full 2.
Then we send AM to AZ in advance of that 3rd year and that defrays part of what we surrendered to get him, while setting up for getting ahead of the cap, including for any major splurge, going forward

 

[brakeyawself]

Through their first 6 seasons in the NHL
MacKinnon: .88 PPG
Eichel: .95 PPG

Again, it's not about point production. We know Eichel is talented. As I said, he's probably one the top 5-10 most talented centers in the league. But he's not one of the 5-10 best. And a lot more goes into that than just a slight edge in PPG. Or even being able to score 80+ points in a season. MacKinnon is still a much better NHL player up to this point. And part of that is staying on the ice.

 

[bernmeister]

I persist in saying a Mathews trade in his prime is unlikely because it is true and history bears that out for great centers in their primes. How many top 5 centers have been traded in their primes in the last 10 years?

Your speculation that Toronto would want to trade Mathews (23) to keep Tavares (30) is very far fetched.

You misunderstand, and therefore mispresent me, my good man.
Pls read my prior post #217.

they are not losing Matthews to keep Tavares.
They are stuck w/Tavares b'c he is home guy who has full nmc and will NOT go anywhere.

Matthews is on his own separate track, not affected by anything else.

As to the bold generality, while it is not irrelevant, it is subordinate to the current reality, which specifically includes:
1. AM has unique options in AZ others did/do not have anywhere.
That is dominant and overriding.

2. cap is more constraining than ever before
by this I emphasize not just total cap $$ but structural cap of a large salary guy.
Leafs are top heavy
they have lost this way
they project to continue to lose this way.

They can't move Marner w/out retaining or taking a production hit.
Tavares asserts nmc and goes nowhere.

They either die on the hill that is keep matthews and tinker while basically swimming in more of the same which is potentially winning strategy, but against the grain, like an inside straight in poker.
not good odds
best odds long term are this deal w/retained Zib ensuring top pivot presence [even if less than AM] for an extra 1-2 yrs, w/inside track on retaining Zib after that if that makes sense, plus other swag.

 

[brakeyawself]

Respectfully, you're missing my point here.

Yes, he is LAST guy leafs let walk.
Him getting paid, finding cap for him is not the prob

And no matter how top heavy Leafs are or aren't, that is not the ? b'c AM would be top player on that roster either way.

The ?, which Leafs do NOT control, is what does AM want?

The premise is it is possible for AZ to offer hometown boy upside TOR can't match. Like I said, Matthews could be a candidate to be player-owner, then owner when he hangs up the skates. Plus he could better capitalize on every opportunity in AZ.

If AM passes on AZ, then Leafs have slight edge to keep him, tho Austin may still want to test the market or try something new.
But I see him pushing to have as much control as he wants.

"The premise is it is possible for AZ to offer hometown boy upside TOR can't match. Like I said, Matthews could be a candidate to be player-owner, then owner when he hangs up the skates."

I am still curious where there is any evidence or even anything slightly suggesting AM would want to take a financial and possibly career punch to the gut, just to play for his hometown team. Like is any of this based on something Matthews said or implied? Is this what Coyote fans and pundits believe?

"Plus he could better capitalize on every opportunity in AZ."

Why? What makes this true? Why can't he capitalize on every opportunity anywhere he is or anywhere he goes? In fact, relative to other locations, the opportunity in Arizona is minimal and limited. Whereas the opportunities in NY, Chicago or even Toronto are pretty much endless. Far beyond what Arizona can offer. In marketing, in commercials, his likeness and most especially local business and local businessmen. Whatever of any of this is in Arizona, it's tenfold in NYC or Chicago. And Toronto is a big city, but it's an especially big hockey city. And Leafs fandom isn't restricted to Toronto, it's probably worldwide, as far as hockey goes. So playing in one of these markets not only exposes him to all the opportunity and connections in those markets, but would do similarly, to an extent, internationally.

So, without that assumption at least, I really don't understand why it would be a likelihood of that happening and him wanting to sign with the Yotes. Or even a significant chance at all. If I had to put money on it right now, I would say the Coyotes aren't even in the top 5 of the most likely places for Matthews to end up. Not saying it's impossible, just highly improbable. But we can't really know his heart so there's a chance.

You are right though, what does AM want? Has he let that be known at all? Has he shown any discontent or disconnect with the Leafs? Mentioned anything about not liking something about Toronto? Just curious what would make someone think AM doesn't absolutely love playing in Toronto, for such a high profile organization.

But whether he chooses to test the market in free agency or not is a different matter. That could definitely happen. But if that did, I think teams like the Rangers, Chicago, Detroit, Vegas, Montreal, Lightning, Boston, Kings or Panthers, and a bunch of other teams are more likely and probably in regard to AM, more interesting than say the Coyotes or right now, the Wild or Calgary.

 

[NYSPORTS]

Buffalo appears to be about $7 million under the minimum salary cap number. If they move Eichel at full salary they’re under by $17 million. How do the Sabres reach the minimum?

edit - i guess they have some current players to sign

 

[bernmeister]

"The premise is it is possible for AZ to offer hometown boy upside TOR can't match. Like I said, Matthews could be a candidate to be player-owner, then owner when he hangs up the skates."

I am still curious where there is any evidence or even anything slightly suggesting AM would want to take a financial and possibly career punch to the gut, just to play for his hometown team. Like is any of this based on something Matthews said or implied? Is this what Coyote fans and pundits believe?

"Plus he could better capitalize on every opportunity in AZ."

Why? What makes this true? Why can't he capitalize on every opportunity anywhere he is or anywhere he goes? In fact, relative to other locations, the opportunity in Arizona is minimal and limited. Whereas the opportunities in NY, Chicago or even Toronto are pretty much endless. Far beyond what Arizona can offer. In marketing, in commercials, his likeness and most especially local business and local businessmen. Whatever of any of this is in Arizona, it's tenfold in NYC or Chicago. And Toronto is a big city, but it's an especially big hockey city. And Leafs fandom isn't restricted to Toronto, it's probably worldwide, as far as hockey goes. So playing in one of these markets not only exposes him to all the opportunity and connections in those markets, but would do similarly, to an extent, internationally.

So, without that assumption at least, I really don't understand why it would be a likelihood of that happening and him wanting to sign with the Yotes. Or even a significant chance at all. If I had to put money on it right now, I would say the Coyotes aren't even in the top 5 of the most likely places for Matthews to end up. Not saying it's impossible, just highly improbable. But we can't really know his heart so there's a chance.

You are right though, what does AM want? Has he let that be known at all? Has he shown any discontent or disconnect with the Leafs? Mentioned anything about not liking something about Toronto? Just curious what would make someone think AM doesn't absolutely love playing in Toronto, for such a high profile organization.

But whether he chooses to test the market in free agency or not is a different matter. That could definitely happen. But if that did, I think teams like the Rangers, Chicago, Detroit, Vegas, Montreal, Lightning, Boston, Kings or Panthers, and a bunch of other teams are more likely and probably in regard to AM, more interesting than say the Coyotes or right now, the Wild or Calgary.

short answer to the above, and thanks btw for the quality feedback, is
not every place offers the same or comparably high opportunity.

Is there any reason to think if he came to NY that Dolan would bump him up in the pecking order if/when he realizes/gets to a point understanding he can't take the team with him when he like all of us meets the grim reaper and has to sell? No.

And team ownership is just one such possible. You point out financial risk, but goodwill is a recognized biz concept as an asset, and IF there is risk THEN he could retain majority ownership and alleviate the financial risk w/junior partners or even other investors.

Beyond that are all kinds of avenues in politics, commerce, etc, all of which are maximized where he is most popular --- AZ

 

[brakeyawself]

1. Panarin is 5 yrs away. Wait at least 3.5 yrs before focusing there.

Why? I'm not particularly worried about it, I don't particularly think we will end up extending him and that will probably be ok. But I can't just forget his contract eventually runs out around the time when we are going to have to be handing out big contracts to many other players. And if it came down to a choice between Panarin or Eichel, I would pick Panarin. Or Panarin and Zibs, I would definitely pick Panarin.

2. signing Zib to a 2-4 year deal
That is possible but only if he also concedes to us on no nmc and we have lots of flexibility to trade. And for that he will want mo $, not less. I'm thinking 10-10.5 for 3-4 yrs; less and think in an 11 per range.

Why would we have to make him concede to forgo an NMC if we are only signing him for 2-4 seasons? We would be doing that because we will want him here for that time. We won't need the flexibility because most likely we wouldn't be trading him in his first 3/4s of that. And if he did want to trade him, say with a half a season left on his contract, I think he might remove the NMC because he'll know we aren't planning to resign him. Or maybe he'll deny to test the market. But that last season I guess is the only season we would theoretically need that NMC removed. So we could still sign him to a 4 year deal, the first 3 of which he has a NMC and the final season he can be traded. And I am not sure it effects his end total. He's going to want 10 probably, maybe 10.5 even. He's not probably worth that much, so there'd still be some leverage with the Rangers. I don't think he'd necessarily require more for a 3/4 period NMC instead of a full one. And I am not sure how much he'll demand a NMC if we are signing him to 10mil a year. Drury can still play hardball with that and make it clear, if you want 10 mil , then no NMC or whatever. If he wants to stay here and get paid, he might just have to let that one go. But I still say 3/4 period NMC is absolutely fine.

3. {targeting (Matthews in)} the year is supposed to be an UFA is fine but we have no inside track or upper hand --- which as I point out, AZ does.

I disagree. We are the NYR, that IS our upper-hand. Along with all the opportunity and connections I've mentioned elsewhere. Again, I see no evidence or anything to suggest Arizona has the upper-hand or even one hand in getting Matthews. Unless there is specific evidence and proof that implies or directly states that he would be most inclined to go to his hometown, I see no reason to even consider Arizona in the top 5 teams or so of his ultimate choices. But Rangers would absolutely be in there because we are the Rangers. Similar reason Chicago and Toronto are in that realm. I understand AM is from Arizona, but that really is not good reason or evidence to assert he'd want to go there and that the Yotes have the "inside track or upper hand." The Rangers and those other teams DO have the inside track and upper hand because they are the largest and best hockey markets or markets in general. And being that they offer a different universe of opportunity and possibility than could Phoenix, if anyone has the advantage now it's Toronto first and foremost and then the big markets like NY, Chicago, even Detroit, probably Montreal, Boston and a few more locations. It would require specific and very persuasive proof to alter this in favor of Arizona.

all we can otherwise do is max our current roster incl bluest blue chips so we have a lineup that appears likely to compete not just 1-2 years but upwards of 6-7 yrs; THAT would be something AM would notice.

Howev, like I said, AZ holds the best cards long term.
The smart play is, without gutting bluest blue chips, using Ranger $ to retain salary, offer Zib reduced +++ for 3 years of which we only get 2, but we are grateful for the full 2.
Then we send AM to AZ in advance of that 3rd year and that defrays part of what we surrendered to get him, while setting up for getting ahead of the cap, including for any major splurge, going forward

I'm sorry but none of that bottom part makes any sense in the world. It's a highly improbable fantasy. There is no reason to assume Toronto would trade Matthews for any of that even in his last year of contract without having yet signed an extension. It's just not happening under any normal circumstance. Something would have to go incredibly wrong in Toronto to utterly destroy Matthews, for a trade like that to be plausible. We aren't trading Zibanijad if we extend him. It's just not happening unless we sign him to a long term contract. Then, maybe down the road. But I am not sure we will sign him to a long term contract at all.

And again, if the Rangers did get Matthews there is absolute zero chance of them turning around 2 years later to trade him to Arizona. a) It's incredibly unlikely he would want to leave the NYR and go to Arizona and b) Why would we give up Austin Matthews? The Rangers would do everything possible to retain him. Especially if they just traded Zibs plus a bunch of other assets. There's just no chance we would trade him like that and almost no chance he would want to be traded.

As far as Arizona holding "all the cards." No. No, they aren't holding all the cards, I'm not even sure they have any cards beyond that instruction card that come in most decks. Ok maybe slightly more than that. like 5 cards maybe. Compared to the like 15-20 NYR would have. Again, without evidence and substantial material to suggest this is true, it remains one of the absolute least likely outcomes. It really seems to me like you are just way overvaluing playing for a hometown team in general and then discounting the fact that hometown team is one of the least attractive clubs in the league. And I am really not sure where you got the idea that returning to his hometown team would be that attractive. Or how that seems realistic or a significant factor. But Arizona really only holds a few of the least valuable cards in the deck. Rangers in one of the best positions of any team in the league.