Poll: James "Disco Killer" Rutherford

[billybudd]

I've taken it for granted that Johnston won't be back in the fall for several weeks now, no matter what happens (short of making the finals, which won't happen due to the roster). If for no other reason than that Johnston was hired to play one type of hockey and has us playing another (not audience friendly) style of hockey, I just don't see any scenario in which he's coming back for another year.

Next question is: do we keep Rutherford?

I'm leaning no. Going back to my posts from last summer, I expected to be a bubble playoff team this season--one that might possibly miss. That that's what we are isn't really my issue with Rutherford.

My issue with Rutherford is that even though it's Shero who dug us into a hole, he's digging it deeper instead of digging us out. After 2013, the Pens desperately needed to take a step backwards to take a step forwards. Shero nailed his coffin shut trying to avoid that. Rutherford is following lock-step in his shoes.

Some of his summer signings (notably Comeau and Downie) were nice, if a bit Island of Misfit Toys, but his work in trades...it's not even that he lost some of them or didn't pursue others that he maybe should have pursued, it's that, other than the Hornqvist deal, they show a lack of understanding of where the Penguins are as a club.

To borrow from the movie Stargate, to plot a trajectory in 3 dimensional space, you need 7 coordinates. Six for the destination and one for the point of origin. Even if you know where you want to go (and I'm not convinced we do), you can't get there without knowing where you already are. I'm positive the Penguins don't know where they are right now.

The Daniel Winnik trade--not the Simon Despres trade (though there are problems with that, too)--is the best example of this disconnect between where we are and where JR thinks we are.

The Penguins need players like Winnik in the bottom six, true. But we need 3 or 4 of them (not 1), we need them at a lower price tag, we need more enthusiastic versions of them and we need them for years, not months. The only way to acquire such players at a rate we can afford is through the draft and we traded the only currency with which such players can be purchased for six weeks of work from one of them.

It's too short-sighted. Every time the Penguins make a trade like this, the amount of time it will theoretically take to clean up the mess gets pushed back.

If we were a Winnik away from a cup run, fine, but we just weren't. That should have been evident to JR at the deadline, but it wasn't.

That he didn't lottery protect the Perron pick is another example of how big of a disconnect there is between what we are and what he thinks we are.

The first step toward fixing a problem is acknowledging it. The next step is to come up with a plan. The third is to execute the plan.

I have doubts about JR's ability to do the first or third thing.

Click to read more...

 

[cassius]

I've taken it for granted that Johnston won't be back in the fall for several weeks now, no matter what happens (short of making the finals, which won't happen due to the roster). If for no other reason than that Johnston was hired to play one type of hockey and has us playing another (not audience friendly) style of hockey, I just don't see any scenario in which he's coming back for another year.

Next question is: do we replace Rutherford?

I'm leaning yes. Going back to my posts from last summer, I expected to be a bubble playoff team this season--one that might possibly miss. That that's what we are isn't really my issue with Rutherford.

My issue with Rutherford is that even though it's Shero who dug us into a hole, he's digging it deeper instead of digging us out. After 2013, the Pens desperately needed to take a step backwards to take a step forwards. Shero nailed his coffin shut trying to avoid that. Rutherford is following lock-step in his shoes.

Some of his summer signings (notably Comeau and Downie) were nice, if a bit Island of Misfit Toys, but his work in trades...it's not even that he lost some of them or didn't pursue others that he maybe should have pursued, it's that, other than the Hornqvist deal, they show a lack of understanding of where the Penguins are as a club.

To borrow from the movie Stargate, to plot a trajectory in 3 dimensional space, you need 7 coordinates. Six for the destination and one for the point of origin. Even if you know where you want to go (and I'm not convinced we do), you can't get there without knowing where you already are. I'm positive the Penguins don't.

The Daniel Winnik trade--not the Simon Despres trade (though there are problems with that, too)--is the best example of this disconnect between where we are and where JR thinks we are.

The Penguins need players like Winnik in the bottom six, true. But we need 3 or 4 of them (not 1), we need them at a lower price tag, we need more enthusiastic versions of them and we need them for years, not months. The only way to acquire such players at a rate we can afford is through the draft and we traded the only currency with which such players can be purchased for six weeks of work from one of them.

It's too short-sighted. Every time the Penguins make a trade like this, the amount of time it will theoretically take to clean up the mess gets pushed back.

If we were a Winnik away from a cup run, fine, but we just weren't. That should have been evident to JR at the deadline, but it wasn't.

That he didn't lottery protect the Perron pick is another example of how big of a disconnect there is between what we are and what he thinks we are.

The first step toward fixing a problem is acknowledging it. The next step is to come up with a plan. The third is to execute the plan.

I have doubts about JR's ability to do the first or third thing.

The sooner he goes.. The better

 

[Gurglesons]

Rutherford should've never have been hired. He's terrible in every aspect of management. The fact that he has a better roster than last year and that our team is notably worse and more importantly completely directionless should be the nail in his coffin.

The Despres trade is just like the Winnik trade only worse, because they thought they needed to improve a d-core that was probably the only thing actually clicking.

Also, props for bringing up Stargate.

 

[PensPlz]

Send in Ser Ilyn.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I don't have any problem with anything he's done outside of the Despres trade. That being said, the Despres trade was incredibly bad. Not just because of the player for player value, or when you compare who both have played since, but in terms of the asset vs. asset value it's atrocious. We traded a 6'4", 215lb, 23 year old defenseman who could skate and move the puck very well, and loved the physical aspect of the game for a 31 year old never-was borderline bottom pairing defenseman. That is unforgivable, even if it was the 7 dwarfs who made the decision, like JR suggested, he's still the guy who pulled the trigger. It also lends credibility to what a lot of us have said for a long time; this organization is incompetent when it comes to the development of prospects unless they light the world on fire right off the bat and force the team's hand.

The Hornqvist/Spaling trade was great. I'm still optimistic that Perron will turn into a great player for us. Comeau--even if he's come back to Earth lately--is making the same as Craig Adams. Downie, when he hasn't been in the box, has been a very effective player. I still maintain Ehrhoff was signed as an insurance policy with the end result being Martin being moved, but injuries prevented it. Goc for Lapierre was whatever; I like Lapierre's speed and agitation, but whomever centers the 4th has to deal with Adams on his wing.

It goes a lot more in depth than just "Should JR be replaced?" Can we land Babcock this summer? If so, JR & Co. need to be gone--all of 'em. Give Babcock control and trust his judgement. Fire the entire coaching staff and front office, and let Babcock bring in his guys.

 

[Mischa]

if we're bringing in someone like babcock. otherwise i don't see it mattering much. i guess botterill might not try to be quite as nice in trades so maybe we'll get a few more draft picks so maybe its worth it? i don't see it fixing the overall mismanagement though

 

[Coastal Kev]

Farts

 

[Waffle Fries]

If Boterill, Fitzgerald, Guerin and the scouting staff aren't all fired what difference does it make? Outside of the Despres trade, JR hasn't done anything worth firing over.

 

[specialized]

Coach and GM are going nowhere, that would mean we would be paying 2 coaches and 2 gm's that are not here.

 

[billybudd]

if we're bringing in someone like babcock. otherwise i don't see it mattering much. i guess botterill might not try to be quite as nice in trades so maybe we'll get a few more draft picks so maybe its worth it? i don't see it fixing the overall mismanagement though

I'm presently more worried about stopping ongoing damage than getting a Scotty Bowman level hockey mind in here. Look at the tradeable assets we had last summer compared to now. Lot less now and we're not any closer to being better.

The two or three good signings he made this summer were all one-offs. He's not going to get gold for trash that many times again.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Coach and GM are going nowhere, that would mean we would be paying 2 coaches and 2 gm's that are not here.

I keep seeing this said. Who cares? Lemieux and Burkle have a disgusting amount of cash, and if they want to win, they need to do what's right and stop wasting time.

Sadly, I don't think they give a **** about winning. That's why we'll go into next season with Kunitz and Comeau on Geno's wings, MJ and Tocchet behind the bench, and JR & Co. in the front office.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Let him go. The guy nearly always gets the short end of the stick in trades, and his last one was outright terrible.

He wasn't any great shakes in FA either...Downie and Comeau were solid, but prioritizing Ehrhoff was a gross miscalculation. We didn't and don't need him. We needed a damn forward, which we ended up moving a 2nd for anyway.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

IMO he's done a slightly better job than Johnston in his respective position, but truth is they both ought to go.

Here's how I see his moves:

Fire Bylsma: the right move, more of a symbolic gesture since he was gone anyway
Hornqvist trade: even (or slight negative)
Perron trade: slight positive
Offseason signings: slight positive*
Cole trade: significant positive
Despres trade: failure
Winnik trade: slight negative (Winnik's been good, but we overpaid for him...could work out if he extends and continues to gel)

*Ehrhoff turned into a major disaster, though that was hard to foresee. We should have gone for a forward at that time, which makes it harder to stomach. Downie et al have been solid additions on the cheap.

So all in all, a mixed bag from the moves he DID do. But here's what he DIDN'T do:

-fix the second line (it's been a disaster all year)
-ship out Scuderi
-ship out Kunitz/Adams
-hire a competent coach
-Dupuis situation

Not addressing a single one of these glaring issues all year is what makes him a failure.

 

[Uemoda]

I don't think it matters one way or the other. I'm not out for JR's head like I was Shero's. On the whole we have a better roster than we did last year. If he's willing to make the trades to get rid of veterans and stops trading young players and picks, he'd be fine. He just needs to be willing to accept what needs to be an overall team philosophy change. If he's not, he can go. No big loss.

It's the rest of the organization I have it out for. Heads, spikes. The whole lot of em. Morehouse, Assistant GMs, scouting, coaching staff to begin with.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

Rutherford and all of his 36 assistant GMs need to be jettisoned.

 

[The Old Master]

Rutherford and all of his 36 assistant GMs need to be jettisoned.

this

 

[Captain Hook]

Rutherford scares me. I don't want him or this staff making any more moves. He completely disregards value to get whatever players he or his staff have a man crush on. He isn't the guy to maximize our assets and make us a better team, imo.

They need to genuinely clean house this time around. Don't just bring in a new figure head at the top and have all the same stooges remain as his assistants. Bring in a new GM and let him put together his own new staff.

 

[Waffle Fries]

IMO he's done a slightly better job than Johnston in his respective position, but truth is they both ought to go.

Here's how I see his moves:

Fire Bylsma: the right move, more of a symbolic gesture since he was gone anyway
Hornqvist trade: even (or slight negative)
Perron trade: slight positive
Offseason signings: slight positive*
Cole trade: significant positive
Despres trade: failure
Winnik trade: slight negative (Winnik's been good, but we overpaid for him...could work out if he extends and continues to gel)

*Ehrhoff turned into a major disaster, though that was hard to foresee. We should have gone for a forward at that time, which makes it harder to stomach. Downie et al have been solid additions on the cheap.

So all in all, a mixed bag from the moves he DID do. But here's what he DIDN'T do:

-fix the second line (it's been a disaster all year)
-ship out Scuderi
-ship out Kunitz/Adams
-hire a competent coach
-Dupuis situation

Not addressing a single one of these glaring issues all year is what makes him a failure.

I really can't process seeing the Hornqvist trade as a slight negative. Hornqvist is almost everything you could possibly want from a hockey player. He's so valuable. I've never seen him take a shift off. Ever. Can't say that for a single other player on this team, or the player who was traded to bring him in.

 

[ColePens]

I will fight to say Hornqvist is a damn good trade. Damn good one.

 

[cassius]

I will fight to say Hornqvist is a damn good trade. Damn good one.

There's a reason why Nashville went from a bottom dweller to one of the best teams in the league..

 

[Sutter16]

Ya the Hornqvist and Cole trades were Rutherford's best. The Perron one can and likely will turn into one of the better ones if he re-signs this summer (I've heard he is).

The Despres trade was awful. Lapierre for Goc? Bad. GMJR made a few good and bad moves, I've seen enough. Not the right guy.

 

[Coastal Kev]

I will fight to say Hornqvist is a damn good trade. Damn good one.

But the Spaling add at 3 million brings that trade value down. I wish he added a different bigger, tougher piece.

 

[billybudd]

Rutherford should've never have been hired. He's terrible in every aspect of management. The fact that he has a better roster than last year and that our team is notably worse and more importantly completely directionless should be the nail in his coffin.

The Despres trade is just like the Winnik trade only worse, because they thought they needed to improve a d-core that was probably the only thing actually clicking.

Also, props for bringing up Stargate.

Rutherford scares me. I don't want him or this staff making any more moves. He completely disregards value to get whatever players he or his staff have a man crush on. He isn't the guy to maximize our assets and make us a better team, imo.

They need to genuinely clean house this time around. Don't just bring in a new figure head at the top and have all the same stooges remain as his assistants. Bring in a new GM and let him put together his own new staff.

This, in a nutshell, is why I don't want him to remain. His trade record is spotty, at best, but there has been a fundamental failure of understanding who the Penguins are and what they even need.

I'm in the minority in that I don't think the Despres trade made us any worse at all in the immediate term, but I'm dumbfounded at why "upgrading" on Simon Despres was even on the radar, let alone for a year and change of just Ben Lovejoy--who I like a lot. Penguins most-obvious weakness is that they struggle with both size and speed, but that change doesn't really address that at all.

Look at JR's work since January. He traded Marcel Goc in a skill for sandpaper and size deal. Fine. Makes sense. A month later he makes two size and sandpaper for (in theory) skill deals on D. Even though the Cole trade worked, there's no uniformity of vision here. No project plan. No understanding of where we are, where we need to go and what we need to do to get there.

The "lacking an identity" thing has been hung around Johnston's neck, but it's Rutherford's doing, in my opinion. Penguins, outside of 58 87 72 71 and 23, are a bunch of warm bodies that don't, as a group, work toward any one thing or have any particular attachment to the guy next to them.

Temp workers, not a team.

 

[Waffle Fries]

There's a reason why Nashville went from a bottom dweller to one of the best teams in the league..

You've got to be kidding. Yeah they're success is because they traded Hornqvist for Neal. Hiring Lavi, the play of Rinne, Forsberg's breakout year, Ribeiro returning to form and having one of the best dcores in the league has nothing to do with it.

Nope. All James Neal and his 37 points.

 

[ColePens]

If Neal had 37 pts here... people would be flipping the **** out. Cassius... you are on a roll lately.