Post-Game Talk: Plus/Minus: Pens vs. Leafs... not too good

[KIRK]

you're both right, but this is a bit different.

1) Crosby and Malkin just re-signed with the knowledge that Disco would be sticking around. Moreover, both men (and the rest of the team) seem to love Bylsma. There will be no internal pressure.

2) Unlike the Ron Wilson situation (I'm in Toronto), there's absolutely no one in the media questioning the team. There will be no external pressure.

They didn't extend Bylsma as a gesture, a way of preventing "lame duck status."

They extended him because they love him and want him around for a while.

Maybe Torts was right. Most arrogant organization in hockey, just the arrogance is born out of a mix of the obstinate and complacency rather than malice.

 

[KIRK]

When the team gets healthy, there are a ton of options for that 3rd line. I thought D'Agostini played really well. Definitely had pop in his skates, and was working really hard.

Neal needs to come back, because Geno is getting the look of a disinterested player. That turnover for the Leafs goal was just really terrible.

How does Neal help Geno beyond maybe a few more points? Their production together has been subpar except when Kunitz was on his LW. Frankly, Geno's production always has been 'subpar' when he doesn't have a puck retriever on one of his wings. Is the forechecking suddenly going to become better with Neal? I think not. Neal isn't exactly a guy who embraces a forechecking role, nor should he for a line with Geno to be effective. Geno needs a puck retriever more than Neal. There . . . a hockey analysis that has been flushed out in greater detail. Now don't bother to address this in any substance while bemoaning further how GTD's and PGT's are devoid of analysis.

 

[KIRK]

They are beat to death and repeated constantly. And most of them aren't valid concerns.

KCD plays well together. They aren't the only line that got shut down by Boston, as people like to point to that. Malkin and Neal didn't do **** either and they weren't facing nearly the checking that the KCD line was. Pascal Dupuis for his salary brings a ton to the table, and people who talk about his points being on the back of Crosby are dead wrong. Chris Kunitz was also a good re-signing for what he brings to the table. Take either guy off this team and we are worse for it, not mentioning getting a guy who can play a top 6 position for under 4 million per season is a bargain in today's NHL. People complaining about Ray Shero for re-signing these guys should uppercut themselves.

Brooks Orpik will not be traded this season. I will be completely shocked if he is. People can use the EA Sports theory that you can pull one guy out and plug another one in and the show goes on, but it doesn't. Will Orpik be retained after this season? I have no idea, and I'm not sure if he should be, but him being traded now...yeah, that's not going to happen whether you think it should or not.

Niskanen could be traded, but should he be traded is a completely different topic. Having him as an insurance policy puts this team in a better position to win, period, and that's the thing Cup contending teams look for.

People can piss and moan about Bylsma, but he was re-signed, and he isn't going anywhere barring a complete collapse of the team, which I don't envisioning happening. Just like Orpik being traded, I don't see the reasoning of even bringing it up. The people who criticize Bylsma's coaching are only doing so on a very superficial level. Does he do stupid **** some times? Yeah. Is he too much of a reactionary coach? Yeah. Is he even a fraction as bad as some people here want to believe? No.

Constantly repeating the same points is not intelligent. It's completely void of intelligence. There used to be posters here that could talk about the in depth intricacies of the sport, and back up their points. They knew what they were talking about and it was really awesome to read. I actually have been reading this site for close to 10 years. There were outlandish annoying posters, but they were a minority and they were sort of funny to read because the board policed itself in that way. Those posters are now the majority. The GDT last night was one of the biggest cluster****s I have read here in a really long time.

What a crock of ****. Who did Chara start against? How scared was Julien after one period that he put Seidenberg back with Chara to stop that player?

Sid and the best line in hockey went out there against Bergeron, Marchand, Jagr, Ference, and Boychuk.

Marchand absolutely is selke candidate. The rest? Please, if Crosby's line was 1/2 of what it's supposed to be, then it shouldn't be skunked by Patrice Bergeron and nothing more, because that's what happened.

See, on the one hand, you bemoan the lack of intelligent conversation, and then you spread the biggest myth of all about the Boston series, that Claude Julien thought he needed anything more than just Bergeron to shut down the best player and the best line in hockey.

 

[KIRK]

I felt it was a mistake to hold on to Dupuis AND Kunitz. Thats roughly what, 7M? We need a first line player on the first line. Crosby and Malkin (sans Neal and Hossa) playing with smucks their entire career is pathetic.

7.5 million for two wingers for Sid. Can you think of a worse way to have spent that allocated money for wingers for Sid?

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

7.5 million for two wingers for Sid. Can you think of a worse way to have spent that allocated money for wingers for Sid?

Every time I'm reminded of this fact a part of the hockey fan in me dies a little bit.

 

[mpp9]

What a crock of ****. Who did Chara start against? How scared was Julien after one period that he put Seidenberg back with Chara to stop that player?

Sid and the best line in hockey went out there against Bergeron, Marchand, Jagr, Ference, and Boychuk.

Marchand absolutely is selke candidate. The rest? Please, if Crosby's line was 1/2 of what it's supposed to be, then it shouldn't be skunked by Patrice Bergeron and nothing more, because that's what happened.

See, on the one hand, you bemoan the lack of intelligent conversation, and then you spread the biggest myth of all about the Boston series, that Claude Julien thought he needed anything more than just Bergeron to shut down the best player and the best line in hockey.

It's kinda dumb to keep talking about the same **** though. No doubt KCD has yet to prove they can produce against the likes of Boston in a 7 game series. And that Malkin was the better player in the Boston series.

But I'm pretty sure a hockey trade is coming. Shero went all out last season on vet rentals. I can't imagine him wanting to throw away more futures.

As JTG said, we need a Brooks Laich type here. Playing anywhere in the top 9. We aren't winning a Cup without one. I'm positive of that.

 

[KIRK]

It's kinda dumb to keep talking about the same **** though. No doubt KCD has yet to prove they can produce against the likes of Boston in a 7 game series. And that Malkin was the better player in the Boston series.

But I'm pretty sure a hockey trade is coming. Shero went all out last season on vet rentals. I can't imagine him wanting to throw away more futures.

As JTG said, we need a Brooks Laich type here. Playing anywhere in the top 9. We aren't winning a Cup without one. I'm positive of that.

Of course it's dumb to talk about, because KCD hasn't proven they can get it done when a team collapses on Sid, even without their best five man defensive unit.

I hope a hockey trade is coming. A guy like Laich would address the bottom six, for sure. But, it's like rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic until you address L1 RW and L2 LW. Bennett could address either but would be tapped to address neither.

BTW, Jokinen is a nice player, but I see his role being a 'you can have him or Sutter but use the other to address real holes' thing. Can he play with Malkin? Sure. He'll look a lot like Sullivan did on the LW of Malkin and Neal, and that's not entirely (or necessarily close to) a good thing.

 

[mpp9]

Of course it's dumb to talk about, because KCD hasn't proven they can get it done when a team collapses on Sid, even without their best five man defensive unit.

I hope a hockey trade is coming. A guy like Laich would address the bottom six, for sure. But, it's like rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic until you address L1 RW and L2 LW. Bennett could address either but would be tapped to address neither.

BTW, Jokinen is a nice player, but I see his role being a 'you can have him or Sutter but use the other to address real holes' thing. Can he play with Malkin? Sure. He'll look a lot like Sullivan did on the LW of Malkin and Neal, and that's not entirely (or necessarily close to) a good thing.

If Jokinen doesn't work out with Geno/Neal (I have my doubts as well), then at least you have another option to fill in there. A guy like McGinn would be perfect in that role. And you also have Beau able to slide up.

We're closer to having a team that can make a legitimate claim as being contenders than you think. It'd be great if we could bring back Hossa and Malone from 08. But as long as we upgrade the middle six and give ourselves options when lines aren't working out, then i'll be happy. Up to DB from there.

 

[JTG]

What a crock of ****. Who did Chara start against? How scared was Julien after one period that he put Seidenberg back with Chara to stop that player?

Sid and the best line in hockey went out there against Bergeron, Marchand, Jagr, Ference, and Boychuk.

Marchand absolutely is selke candidate. The rest? Please, if Crosby's line was 1/2 of what it's supposed to be, then it shouldn't be skunked by Patrice Bergeron and nothing more, because that's what happened.

See, on the one hand, you bemoan the lack of intelligent conversation, and then you spread the biggest myth of all about the Boston series, that Claude Julien thought he needed anything more than just Bergeron to shut down the best player and the best line in hockey.

Bergeron and nothing more. Ugh. You have no idea what you're talking about Kirk. Bergeron's line was one of the best shutdown units in hockey, and Bergeron is a Selke winner.

Malkin, Neal, and Iginla were really never dangerous in that series.

The summation of that series is a bad powerplay, a great shutdown line, a Norris caliber defenseman, a goaltender playing on his head, an average goaltender, and a coach being out coached.

This is a team, and we scored 1 goal in 4 games. To put that on a collection of 3 players is hilariously convenient and stupid, especially considering we had home ice advantage, so the first 2 games, we had the ability to match up with who we wanted. We still lost.

 

[JTG]

Jokinen should be with Geno and Neal, and that should make a very good line. Bennett, despite where he plays, should bring some much needed offensive depth, which will help tremendously, and I think once guys like Kobasew and D'Agostini are correctly cast, they will see their fair share of opportunity to score. To look at this team now and start passing judgement with 2 of our best offensive players on the shelf makes no sense.

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

Because no one will ever get injured in the playoffs? Yes, injuries affect all teams, but the Penguins are much, much less-equipped to deal with them than a team like, say, St. Louis is.

 

[KIRK]

Bergeron and nothing more. Ugh. You have no idea what you're talking about Kirk. Bergeron's line was one of the best shutdown units in hockey, and Bergeron is a Selke winner.

Malkin, Neal, and Iginla were really never dangerous in that series.

The summation of that series is a bad powerplay, a great shutdown line, a Norris caliber defenseman, a goaltender playing on his head, an average goaltender, and a coach being out coached.

This is a team, and we scored 1 goal in 4 games. To put that on a collection of 3 players is hilariously convenient and stupid, especially considering we had home ice advantage, so the first 2 games, we had the ability to match up with who we wanted. We still lost.

1. Marchand-Jagr-Ference-Boychuk. Bergeron could be the greatest defensive forward in the league. Sid is the best player in hockey. He's got the best line in hockey. And, you're telling me that foursome supporting Bergeron isn't something that Sid would've eaten alive once upon a time. Please.

2. Game one started with Chara-Boychuk against Malkin and Ference-Seidenberg against Crosby. Despite Iginla, who couldn't take a pass on his LW in transition, it took one period for Julien to put Seidenberg with Chara. It's because he saw Malkin as infinitely more dangerous, despite playing short handed.

The only thing hilariously convenient here is your revisionist history to try to defend the **** notion that KCD is fine.

KCD is fine like a golfer who shoots for show and putts like ****.

 

[KIRK]

If Jokinen doesn't work out with Geno/Neal (I have my doubts as well), then at least you have another option to fill in there. A guy like McGinn would be perfect in that role. And you also have Beau able to slide up.

We're closer to having a team that can make a legitimate claim as being contenders than you think. It'd be great if we could bring back Hossa and Malone from 08. But as long as we upgrade the middle six and give ourselves options when lines aren't working out, then i'll be happy. Up to DB from there.

No, Jokinen will work with Malkin and Neal like Sullivan did. People like JTG will extol the lines virtues. Then, a tough playoff series will come, and they'll be almost as impotent as KCD, and people will wonder what happened . . . cough, no puck retriever, cough.

 

[mpp9]

never mind

 

[KIRK]

You weren't watching the same series if you think Malkin wasn't our most dangerous guy. Sid didn't show up until well into game 3.

CJ split up Bergeron and Chara b/c he didn't need both on Sid. Refer to any PG talk from CJ himself, he was only talking about how well Geno was playing. Not Sid.

I'm not putting the series on Sid or KCD, but they did nothing to dispel the notion that they can't produce against elite defensive teams.

Actually, Chara started on Malkin. It took one period of Chara-Boychuk on Malkin and seeing Bergeron could shut down the best player and line in hockey with not too much help for him to put Seidenberg with Chara.

And, don't mention what CJ said. On ice facts and comments from the other team's coach being cited isn't the type of 'substance' some here who bemoan the lack of substance want around here.

never mind

Too late . . .

 

[Shockmaster]

No, Jokinen will work with Malkin and Neal like Sullivan did. People like JTG will extol the lines virtues. Then, a tough playoff series will come, and they'll be almost as impotent as KCD, and people will wonder what happened . . . cough, no puck retriever, cough.

Personally I'd like to see Kunitz-Malkin-Neal reunited. That line never failed to my memory, it was just broken up the season after the playoff loss to the Flyers.

 

[JTG]

1. Marchand-Jagr-Ference-Boychuk. Bergeron could be the greatest defensive forward in the league. Sid is the best player in hockey. He's got the best line in hockey. And, you're telling me that foursome supporting Bergeron isn't something that Sid would've eaten alive once upon a time. Please.

2. Game one started with Chara-Boychuk against Malkin and Ference-Seidenberg against Crosby. Despite Iginla, who couldn't take a pass on his LW in transition, it took one period for Julien to put Seidenberg with Chara. It's because he saw Malkin as infinitely more dangerous, despite playing short handed.

The only thing hilariously convenient here is your revisionist history to try to defend the **** notion that KCD is fine.

KCD is fine like a golfer who shoots for show and putts like ****.

I think blaming 3 players for the shortcomings of an entire team is a simplistic way of looking at things. Nobody on the team performed well. Boston also had a 3rd and 4th line chipping in offense, which we did not.

Over the last 2 years in the playoffs, Dupuis and Kunitz are PPG players. Would I rather have a more highly skilled player up on that line? Sure, but those two aren't the teams downfall in the playoffs regardless of how many times you keep repeating it.

 

[KIRK]

Personally I'd like to see Kunitz-Malkin-Neal reunited. That line never failed to my memory, it was just broken up the season after the playoff loss to the Flyers.

Actually, KMN wasn't good against the Flyers.

That said, if the Pens packaged say Sutter, Despres, 1st to get Sid a winger and put Bennett on the other wing and then moved Niskanen for a guy like Clifford and ran a Clifford-JJ-Duper 3rd line, then methinks from a personnel perspective that would be a much better mix than the one that the Pens have now.

 

[KIRK]

I think blaming 3 players for the shortcomings of an entire team is a simplistic way of looking at things. Nobody on the team performed well. Boston also had a 3rd and 4th line chipping in offense, which we did not.

Over the last 2 years in the playoffs, Dupuis and Kunitz are PPG players. Would I rather have a more highly skilled player up on that line? Sure, but those two aren't the teams downfall in the playoffs regardless of how many times you keep repeating it.

Kunitz and Dupuis aren't the Pens downfall. But, in the same way that I said Bylsma did as much to shut down Geno against Boston by putting Iginla on his LW, I do mean that he did the same with Sid by putting Kunitz and Dupuis on his wings.

Look, Jokinen is a skilled guy, but the thing that makes a Geno line go is a puck retriever. Malone. Malkin and Neal with our without Kunitz. Malkin and Feds with Sykora and then Talbot. That's a critical ingredient . . . puck retriever, Geno, guy to finish and play third wheel with the dirty stuff is the formula for a successful Geno line.

For Sid, it's a guy like Kunitz and a guy who brings a little skill to the table (even a guy like Guerin), someone who can exploit the extra half second Sid gives you and can make a play himself to keep the other team honest from completely selling out against Sid.

The thing that makes Sid and Geno special against anyone, IMO, is that they can make due with less. But, neither can make due with less that doesn't complement. With KCD, it just takes a little longer to expose itself (i.e., good playoff defensive teams that collapse around Sid and stay totally disciplined in coverages).

 

[mpp9]

Actually, Chara started on Malkin. It took one period of Chara-Boychuk on Malkin and seeing Bergeron could shut down the best player and line in hockey with not too much help for him to put Seidenberg with Chara.

And, don't mention what CJ said. On ice facts and comments from the other team's coach being cited isn't the type of 'substance' some here who bemoan the lack of substance want around here.



Too late . . .

I figured I'd leave it up to you.

 

[JTG]

Kunitz and Dupuis aren't the Pens downfall. But, in the same way that I said Bylsma did as much to shut down Geno against Boston by putting Iginla on his LW, I do mean that he did the same with Sid by putting Kunitz and Dupuis on his wings.

Look, Jokinen is a skilled guy, but the thing that makes a Geno line go is a puck retriever. Malone. Malkin and Neal with our without Kunitz. Malkin and Feds with Sykora and then Talbot. That's a critical ingredient . . . puck retriever, Geno, guy to finish and play third wheel with the dirty stuff is the formula for a successful Geno line.

For Sid, it's a guy like Kunitz and a guy who brings a little skill to the table (even a guy like Guerin), someone who can exploit the extra half second Sid gives you and can make a play himself to keep the other team honest from completely selling out against Sid.

The thing that makes Sid and Geno special against anyone, IMO, is that they can make due with less. But, neither can make due with less that doesn't complement. With KCD, it just takes a little longer to expose itself (i.e., good playoff defensive teams that collapse around Sid and stay totally disciplined in coverages).

Geno doesn't have to have a puck retriever on his line. There's more than 1 way to skin a cat, and I think having a guy like Jokinen there will work just as well (and it has in the brief time it was together). How Jokinen plays meshes well with Neal and Geno. He is a defensively responsible forward who can also keep the defensive side of things clean. What he brings that a guy like Malone or Kunitz didn't is a high degree of skill. He can draw guys do him which opens things up for Geno and Neal (particularly Neal).

 

[Shockmaster]

Kunitz and Dupuis aren't the Pens downfall. But, in the same way that I said Bylsma did as much to shut down Geno against Boston by putting Iginla on his LW, I do mean that he did the same with Sid by putting Kunitz and Dupuis on his wings.

Look, Jokinen is a skilled guy, but the thing that makes a Geno line go is a puck retriever. Malone. Malkin and Neal with our without Kunitz. Malkin and Feds with Sykora and then Talbot. That's a critical ingredient . . . puck retriever, Geno, guy to finish and play third wheel with the dirty stuff is the formula for a successful Geno line.

For Sid, it's a guy like Kunitz and a guy who brings a little skill to the table (even a guy like Guerin), someone who can exploit the extra half second Sid gives you and can make a play himself to keep the other team honest from completely selling out against Sid.

The thing that makes Sid and Geno special against anyone, IMO, is that they can make due with less. But, neither can make due with less that doesn't complement. With KCD, it just takes a little longer to expose itself (i.e., good playoff defensive teams that collapse around Sid and stay totally disciplined in coverages).

Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis being shutdown might not have been a big problem if the second line wasn't dysfunctional with Iginla on the LW. In Games 5 & 6 of the Islanders series, and the first 40 minutes of Game 1 against the Senators, Bylsma had Dupuis-Crosby-Iginla and Kunitz-Malkin-Neal. They were working, yet for no reason at all Bylsma tried to fix what was working. The local media was too chicken**** to ask Bylsma or Shero about this.

 

[KIRK]

I figured I'd leave it up to you.

Yeah, make me be your heavy.

 

[KIRK]

Geno doesn't have to have a puck retriever on his line. There's more than 1 way to skin a cat, and I think having a guy like Jokinen there will work just as well (and it has in the brief time it was together). How Jokinen plays meshes well with Neal and Geno. He is a defensively responsible forward who can also keep the defensive side of things clean. What he brings that a guy like Malone or Kunitz didn't is a high degree of skill. He can draw guys do him which opens things up for Geno and Neal (particularly Neal).

Career stats would suggest otherwise.

I think he'll be good, like he and Neal were good with Sullivan or like KCD is good . . . until it counts.

Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis being shutdown might not have been a big problem if the second line wasn't dysfunctional with Iginla on the LW. In Games 5 & 6 of the Islanders series, and the first 40 minutes of Game 1 against the Senators, Bylsma had Dupuis-Crosby-Iginla and Kunitz-Malkin-Neal. They were working, yet for no reason at all Bylsma tried to fix what was working. The local media was too chicken**** to ask Bylsma or Shero about this.

Actually, I think those two lines only accounted for one goal in those 40 minutes, so Bylsma changed the lines to generate more ES scoring. Clearly, he kept that standard into the Boston series.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

7.5 million for two wingers for Sid. Can you think of a worse way to have spent that allocated money for wingers for Sid?

You're wrong.

In the cap world and with Sid and Geno making so much money, it is impossible for Shero to get another elite winger for Sid. There is no player that makes 6.5M or less to go with BB that is a better option than Duper and Kuni.

KCD>>>>>>BB - Sid - 6.5M winger....AINEC