Players who don't get enough criticism for their poor defensive plays?

[Nithoniniel]

To be totally honest, I can't even believe that there is any need at all to explain that P.K. Subban and Jake Gardiner aren't even remotely in the same league as players or in terms of defensive ability. Even for HFBoards, this is pretty surprising that this conversation is even needed.

I don't think people say they are the same. Just that a lot of the arguments you raised earlier for Subban made me, and obviously others, think "Yeah, that's just like with Gardiner."

Expectation is a large part of the impressions we get. I don't know how often we've had games where Gardiner makes a stupid turnover, and there's two pages in the GDT of people going nuts over him. Then Hainsey punts the puck up the middle straight to an opponent, and Dermott starts chasing after the wrong guy leaving someone completely open, and there's not a peep. Impressions are based on plays that stick with you, and since people are annoyed at Gardiner going in, every mistake will stick with them.

You mentioned giveaways earlier and it's a good point. I like to look at what percentage of the league the player is in terms of ice time and venue-adjusted giveaways, and then compare it to the approximate percentage of individual plays counts like the Passing Project. When you do that, Gardiner is just about average.

Bottom line is that the guy you have described over the last two pages would be an absolute anchor at the NHL level, regardless of other qualities. Instead Gardiner logs huge even strength minutes with success, we do better defensively with him on the ice, and has done so with a wide variety of partners.

Though I have to say, I do like to divide the game into defense, transition, and offense as broad categories, and Gardiner definitely is the weakest at defense. But he gets an immense amount of criticism for his defense, so he's arguably closer to belonging in the opposite thread from this one.

 

[Doyoulikeapples*]

Matthews

Matthews is actually great defensively and is only 20. I’m surprised it took until page 2 for a leaf hater/ jealous fan to say his name though.

 

[sdf]

Ovechkin

 

[ijuka]

I'd have to say that the first one who comes to mind for me is Auston Matthews.

 

[boyko10]

Wheeler can do some crazy stuff I tells ya. Fortunately he's the first to admit it, and it feels as he's always made up for it almost immediately.

 

[57special]

I can't think of anyone on the Wild...maybe Ennis and Foligno, but it's not like they have reps as possible Selke finalists.

Dumba already gets criticized, and justifiably so, but he is getting better on D, not worse.

 

[Volica]

Sean Monahan easily.
Guy's average to below average defensively. But because he's slower, big, Canadian and pegged as a two-way player at his draft for some reason he's perceived as a great two-way C. He's a scoring C that makes you nervous when his line's defending.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

We have polar opposite takes on Gardiner's hockey IQ and additionally, I'm not seeing the same errors from these guys.

Well I'm more confident in mine given your obvious double standard here. Yes Gardiner gets burned by making risky plays. However, like with Subban, it doesn't make him a dumb player

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Actually, I didn't. I didn't say Gardiner made high risk plays, I said he made stupid plays.

"Jake Gardiner is pretty lousy defensively in large part because he's very dumb. He makes stupid decisions all the time and he often seems to over-estimate his ability and attempts extremely low percentage plays and will often willing throw the puck away when he has pass options (a sense of panic, he throws the puck away without looking for better options.)"

Is "attempting low percentage plays" not the same as making risky plays?

 

[bert]

What are some "underrated" bad defensive players (If underrated is even the right term)? Players who are pretty bad defensively yet fly under the radar when it comes to criticism of defensive play.

One forward I had in mind is Devin Shore. Awful metrics in both suppression and goals prevention.

When it comes to defenseman, Ceci stands out. Ceci is truly an bad defensive player who shouldn't be taking the tough matchups but he's used that way.

Note overrated defensive players don't count. Weber and Josi for example are criminally overrated defensively, but they're not actually bad defensively. Ceci is bad, while Shore is awful yet rarely get criticized for their play.

Ceci rarely gets criticized? In what universe. Every leaf fan on HF has made it their personal mission to show how bad he is. On top of that he gets ripped by all sens fans. He was fine before they started using him incorrectly with the sens terrible coach. He is now potentially ruined and regressed like every single D man on Ottawa.

He was a decent two way D to begin his career now he is played out of position and is getting raked over the coals.

 

[korrowan]

Letang

 

[FerrisRox]

Well I'm more confident in mine given your obvious double standard here. Yes Gardiner gets burned by making risky plays. However, like with Subban, it doesn't make him a dumb player

What is "my obvious double standard?"

 

[rent free]

Ceci rarely gets criticized? In what universe. Every leaf fan on HF has made it their personal mission to show how bad he is. On top of that he gets ripped by all sens fans. He was fine before they started using him incorrectly with the sens terrible coach. He is now potentially ruined and regressed like every single D man on Ottawa.

He was a decent two way D to begin his career now he is played out of position and is getting raked over the coals.

leafs fan don't care about ceci. we don't need to make it our "personal mission" to show how bad he is; his work is on the ice for the viewing

 

[rent free]

What is "my obvious double standard?"

that habs players are better than leafs players.

 

[FerrisRox]

Is "attempting low percentage plays" not the same as making risky plays?

No.

 

[FerrisRox]

that habs players are better than leafs players.

You heard about the trade, right?

You also heard that the Habs have an awful team, right?

 

[rent free]

You heard about the trade, right?

You also heard that the Habs have an awful team, right?

you are a habs fan and still like subban regardless of what team he plays on because he was once a hab. you also trash on the leafs like all the time

 

[Plural]

Matthews is actually great defensively and is only 20. I’m surprised it took until page 2 for a leaf hater/ jealous fan to say his name though.

Definitely wouldn't say he's great. He's adequate. For a 20 year old #1C he's doing just fine, but it's nothing special.

 

[FerrisRox]

you are a habs fan and still like subban regardless of what team he plays on because he was once a hab. you also trash on the leafs like all the time

I like Subban because he's an excellent defensemen. Formerly being a Montreal Canadien has nothing to do with it.

In terms of trashing Maple Leaf players all the time, I trash Gardiner because I think he's terrible and I trash JVR's defensive ability, because I think it's abysmal, but I also go out of my way to say he's a solid scorer and arguably one of the best in the league from in close.

 

[FerrisRox]

Definitely wouldn't say he's great. He's adequate. For a 20 year old #1C he's doing just fine, but it's nothing special.

Actually, Auston Matthews' defensive responsibly is pretty special for a player his age particularly for a guy playing center.

 

[Plural]

Actually, Auston Matthews' defensive responsibly is pretty special for a player his age particularly for a guy playing center.

I guess it comes down to semantics. I would say that Alexander Barkov's defensive responsibility as a 20 year old top center was special. I don't feel comfortable describing Matthews with similar rhetoric in that part of the game.

 

[Doyoulikeapples*]

Definitely wouldn't say he's great. He's adequate. For a 20 year old #1C he's doing just fine, but it's nothing special.

Certainly doesn’t warrant his. And being mentioned here. Haters can’t avoid it though haha

 

[Rhaegar Targaryen]

Mitch Marner. Guy has decent hustle, but the second he enters the defensive zone he’s a lost puppy

 

[Nithoniniel]

I guess it comes down to semantics. I would say that Alexander Barkov's defensive responsibility as a 20 year old top center was special. I don't feel comfortable describing Matthews with similar rhetoric in that part of the game.

Yeah. I'd say that Matthews is clearly quite good for his age and handles his secondary match up role decently, but he's not the defensive phenom that Barkov is. It seems that he has every intention of becoming that though, which bodes well. When it comes to young players, give me the one who is hell-bent on improving.

Mitch Marner. Guy has decent hustle, but the second he enters the defensive zone he’s a lost puppy

An interesting thing happened with Marner in the second half of this season. He got put on our match up line, and started to live up to his pre-draft hype as a two-way player.

I would agree with you on Marner before that. It actually ties very well in with what I said earlier, that expectation shapes impression. Marner/Nylander is a very good example of that. Both of them have been rather equal defensively in my opinion so far in their careers, and the stats seem to support that albeit with an edge in favor of Nylander. However, Marner was drafted as a two-way player while Nylander was more of a project defensively, and that has colored perception so much. The same play that gets glossed over with Marner becomes problem areas for Nylander.

 

[BleedBlue14]

Let this thread go a while longer and every player in the NHL will end up getting mentioned. There's also a lot of antagonism expressed towards offensive d-men who have the puck a ton which will eventually lead to give aways some of which are highlight worthy (see: Erik Karlsson or PK Subban).

My knock on Subban is not his giveaways. It's his god awful reads defensively.. His best defensive asset is laying on people.

Also forgot he hits people from time to time