Players that are UNDERRATED when talking about their contributions to Cup wins

[Big Phil]

Kind of the opposite of my other thread. Guys who never seem to get the credit for their postseason glory that they deserve. Who gets forgotten a lot of the time?

Rick MacLeish - I dont know about you but his was the first name that came to mind to me. He may go down as the only player in NHL history to ever lead the league in points in the playoffs twice and not be in the HHOF. He had a total of 107 points in 114 games. Not to mention leading the playoffs in points in '74 (22) and '75 (20) both by decent margins compared to his next best teammate as well. You dont always think of him when you think of the Broad Street Bullies. You think of Parent, Clarke as captain and of course Leach's big year in '76. But the truth is when the Flyers went deep in the playoffs MacLeish was stellar. Take a look, '74, ;75, '77, '78, '80, '81. All years where the Flyers and MacLeish did good. And while I dont think they'd have beaten the Habs in '76 I also like to point out that MacLeish missed the entire playoffs that year. Coincidence?

Boom Boom Geoffrion - There is 8 years in a row where Geoffrion had at least 10 points in a playoff year. This is the days when there were just two rounds of playoffs as well. And maybe only once ('57) would he have won a retro Conn Smythe Trophy. But his contributions shouldnt be ignored. He is almost a point per game guy in the playoffs which is fantastic for the era. Geoffrion can sometimes get overshadowed by Beliveau or Richard or Harvey or Plante on those great teams but he was arguably the most prolific Hab in the years of the dynasty in the postseason ('56-60). He potted 58 goals in the postseason and that is very similar to Mr. Howe.

Denis Potvin - Might have been the best to have never had his name on the Conn Smythe Trophy. And you can almost pick a year where you wouldnt have been wrong if he got it. '81 and '82 are years that pop up in my mind. He captained the Isles all throughout that dynasty. And how many of you remember that Potvin had some pretty dominant years himself in the postseason prior to 1980. He was 2nd in points in '76 despite not even making the finals. And if Lidstrom wins in '02 could Potvin not have won in '83? Very debatable. Even '80 has a decent case for him. Either way he was a defender you wanted on your side and 164 playoff points dont lie.

Kevin Stevens - Look I dont care if people think he was leeching off of Mario (which he wasnt) but if you look at his postseason profile you'll see he had 106 points in 103 games and was a monster in the Cup winning seasons. Nobody has put up 33 points in a long time but he did in '91 followed by 28 the next year. And 17 goals one year? That's Leach/Kurri territory for sure.

Dickie Moore - Hey if I'm gonna talk about Geoffrion I should mention Moore too. He led the playoff in points twice as well. He'd have a Conn Smythe trophy on his belt back in '59 if it were around as well. He was an integral part of the Habs dynasty too and has 110 playoff points.

Jaromir Jagr - It isnt as if he's forgotten but sometimes he gets punished for never leading a team to the Cup without Mario. Who cares? he was still great in the postseason. He took those Pens teams way farther than they should have gone in the late '90s and early '00s. Save for his injury riddled playoff experience in '06 there isnt one year, not one year where he had a bad postseason. You wont find it. We may have been robbed at not always seeing a motivated Jagr for his WHOLE career but the man never disapointed in the playoffs.

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[Big Phil]

Nice pick on Moore (notice his nickname as my profile badge) I think it's a pretty well thought of list. Also cant help but wonder how Potvin doesnt win the '81 Conn Smythe. Goring had a good year but was he that much more defensively aware than the all around Potvin to make up for those lost points? I dont know, I've always wondered about that one, but then again it was a lot of little things that Goring did that didnt always show up on the scoresheet.

 

[SChan*]

peter forsberg. Over 170p in the playoffs.

 

[Big Phil]

peter forsberg. Over 170p in the playoffs.

I think he kind of gets his due though. No one forgets how great of a playoff performer Forsberg was. Nobody else has led the NHL in playoff points twice without making the finals in those particular years.

 

[Spitfire11]

Not so much last year, but Tomas Holmstrom has come up pretty big in all 3 of Detroit's Cup winners he's played on and almost never gets mentioned.

How about Craig Simpson for the last couple Oilers' Cup winners?

 

[Canadiens Fan]

Kind of the opposite of my other thread. Guys who never seem to get the credit for their postseason glory that they deserve. Who gets forgotten a lot of the time?

Rick MacLeish - I dont know about you but his was the first name that came to mind to me. He may go down as the only player in NHL history to ever lead the league in points in the playoffs twice and not be in the HHOF. He had a total of 107 points in 114 games. Not to mention leading the playoffs in points in '74 (22) and '75 (20) both by decent margins compared to his next best teammate as well. You dont always think of him when you think of the Broad Street Bullies. You think of Parent, Clarke as captain and of course Leach's big year in '76. But the truth is when the Flyers went deep in the playoffs MacLeish was stellar. Take a look, '74, ;75, '77, '78, '80, '81. All years where the Flyers and MacLeish did good. And while I dont think they'd have beaten the Habs in '76 I also like to point out that MacLeish missed the entire playoffs that year. Coincidence?

Boom Boom Geoffrion - There is 8 years in a row where Geoffrion had at least 10 points in a playoff year. This is the days when there were just two rounds of playoffs as well. And maybe only once ('57) would he have won a retro Conn Smythe Trophy. But his contributions shouldnt be ignored. He is almost a point per game guy in the playoffs which is fantastic for the era. Geoffrion can sometimes get overshadowed by Beliveau or Richard or Harvey or Plante on those great teams but he was arguably the most prolific Hab in the years of the dynasty in the postseason ('56-60). He potted 58 goals in the postseason and that is very similar to Mr. Howe.

Denis Potvin - Might have been the best to have never had his name on the Conn Smythe Trophy. And you can almost pick a year where you wouldnt have been wrong if he got it. '81 and '82 are years that pop up in my mind. He captained the Isles all throughout that dynasty. And how many of you remember that Potvin had some pretty dominant years himself in the postseason prior to 1980. He was 2nd in points in '76 despite not even making the finals. And if Lidstrom wins in '02 could Potvin not have won in '83? Very debatable. Even '80 has a decent case for him. Either way he was a defender you wanted on your side and 164 playoff points dont lie.

Kevin Stevens - Look I dont care if people think he was leeching off of Mario (which he wasnt) but if you look at his postseason profile you'll see he had 106 points in 103 games and was a monster in the Cup winning seasons. Nobody has put up 33 points in a long time but he did in '91 followed by 28 the next year. And 17 goals one year? That's Leach/Kurri territory for sure.

Dickie Moore - Hey if I'm gonna talk about Geoffrion I should mention Moore too. He led the playoff in points twice as well. He'd have a Conn Smythe trophy on his belt back in '59 if it were around as well. He was an integral part of the Habs dynasty too and has 110 playoff points.

Jaromir Jagr - It isnt as if he's forgotten but sometimes he gets punished for never leading a team to the Cup without Mario. Who cares? he was still great in the postseason. He took those Pens teams way farther than they should have gone in the late '90s and early '00s. Save for his injury riddled playoff experience in '06 there isnt one year, not one year where he had a bad postseason. You wont find it. We may have been robbed at not always seeing a motivated Jagr for his WHOLE career but the man never disapointed in the playoffs.

I'll go a little off the beaten path on this one. I see in your thread that you mention in your thread that if there were a retro Conn Smythe, Dickie Moore would have won the award.

I'm not so sure of that. While it is true that Moore led the Habs in scoring with 17 points during that Cup year, arguably the biggest contribution in the playoffs that year was by Marcel Bonin who scored an amazing 10 goals in 11 playoff games that spring.

It is generally forgotten today but the 1958-59 Habs were not at full strength in the playoffs that spring; Jean Beliveau missed the finals completely and Maurice Richard barely played in the four games he appeared.

A few years ago the Hockey News ran a feature story on retro Conn Smythe award winners and picked Bonin as the 1959 recipient. Furthermore if one goes through the old issues of the Hockey News of the time, you will see that amongst the writers and Toe Blake this was also a popular choice.

 

[Big Phil]

I'll go a little off the beaten path on this one. I see in your thread that you mention in your thread that if there were a retro Conn Smythe, Dickie Moore would have won the award.

I'm not so sure of that. While it is true that Moore led the Habs in scoring with 17 points during that Cup year, arguably the biggest contribution in the playoffs that year was by Marcel Bonin who scored an amazing 10 goals in 11 playoff games that spring.

That generates a good argument. Bonin was only 2 points behind Moore.

 

[Al Bundy*]

Kevin Stevens - Look I dont care if people think he was leeching off of Mario (which he wasnt) but if you look at his postseason profile you'll see he had 106 points in 103 games and was a monster in the Cup winning seasons. Nobody has put up 33 points in a long time but he did in '91 followed by 28 the next year. And 17 goals one year? That's Leach/Kurri territory for sure.

He also rallied them in the 1991 Wales Finals with his guarantee.

 

[norrisnick]

Chris Osgood.

 

[mrhockey193195]

The first name that came to mind, before opening the thread, was Jagr (again, I'm pretty biased as a ranger fan).

 

[Big Phil]

Chris Osgood.

Ugh, I was wondering when you would come on and immediately overrate a Wings player. Osgood's best year was '98 and in that year he allowed three goals form outside of the blueline one of them being an overtime winner against Dallas from centre ice. Osgood has always been a product of the Red Wings rather than the other way around. You know if you want to pick only Red Wings a guy like Lidstrom wouldnt have been a terrible choice. Osgood will get you a lot of raised eyebrows in your direction

 

[Dark Shadows]

Ugh, I was wondering when you would come on and immediately overrate a Wings player. Osgood's best year was '98 and in that year he allowed three goals form outside of the blueline one of them being an overtime winner against Dallas from centre ice. Osgood has always been a product of the Red Wings rather than the other way around. You know if you want to pick only Red Wings a guy like Lidstrom wouldnt have been a terrible choice. Osgood will get you a lot of raised eyebrows in your direction

Yep.

Osgood is a passenger in the cup wins, not a reason for them. 10+ other goaltenders in the league would have done better behind that team. Nothing he did was more than ordinary, and he never "won" games for them.

 

[Epsilon]

The most underrated player from the 1997-2002 Wings teams was easily Sergei Fedorov. I would say that if you step back and objectively evaluate the body of work for each player in the 1997, 1998, and 2002 playoffs, Fedorov produced the highest overall quality of play (i.e. his "average value" was highest). Yet I still argue with people who claim that the Wings could have won all of those cups without him and Yzerman single-handedly carried all those teams to the championship. He's the only guy I felt could have reasonably won the Conn Smythe trophy all 3 years (and should have won it in 1997).

 

[Dark Shadows]

The most underrated player from the 1997-2002 Wings teams was easily Sergei Fedorov. I would say that if you step back and objectively evaluate the body of work for each player in the 1997, 1998, and 2002 playoffs, Fedorov produced the highest overall quality of play (i.e. his "average value" was highest). Yet I still argue with people who claim that the Wings could have won all of those cups without him and Yzerman single-handedly carried all those teams to the championship. He's the only guy I felt could have reasonably won the Conn Smythe trophy all 3 years (and should have won it in 1997).

I think everyone realizes how amazing Fedorov was in the playoffs.

It was his laid back "Skate in the park" regular season play after he received his big payday that gets him a bad rap. But his playoff performance? Not underrated. he is one of the better playoff performers.

Here is a post I made recently regarding his playoff performance

Ugh. You really do underrate playoff performance don't you?

First off, he did not just have 2 Great years. He had 2 tremendous years, several very good years, and then yes, his effort collapsed in the regular season, and he gets punished accordingly for it. However, come crunch time, there were few better.

Fedorov was a very key player to that Red wings squad and their 3 cups. One of the best two way forwards ever to play. His offensive numbers may have taken a backseat, but his defense never suffered much.

In his 13 years with the wings, he was first on the team in playoff scoring 8 times, and second 4 times, with one other playoff year placing 4th. Beating guys such as Yzerman, Shanahan, Lidstrom routinely and more often than not playing better defensive hockey than any other forward on the team.

He was their best forward the first year they won the cup and was crucial to their other two wins. One of the few who can boast 4 consecutive 20 point playoffs, and in the dead puck era.

Fedorov is a guy who could have been a top 30 player all time had he put the effort into it for more than 5 years. As it stands, his attitude and effort hurt him in my voting, but not enough to drop him out. In my constant revisions, He continually drops when I make cases in my head for other players to be ahead of him, but I see no case for Hawerchuk or Savard to jump ahead of him, although they are not far behind him. The pool of players that could be between 80-140 is very large.

 

[MS]

Craig Simpson scored 29 goals in 41 games for the Oilers in their Cup wins in 1988 and 1990. Such a shame how back problems ruined his career.

Bob Bourne scored 76 points in 76 playoff games for the Islanders during their dynasty, and led the team in playoff scoring in 1983.

 

[Reds4Life]

Yep.

Osgood is a passenger in the cup wins, not a reason for them. 10+ other goaltenders in the league would have done better behind that team. Nothing he did was more than ordinary, and he never "won" games for them.

I am no Osgood fan, but that's just not right. Osgood did pretty good and he made some key saves at times, he was definitely one of the most important Red Wings during 08 run.

Fedorov's contributions are very underrated, he should have won Conn Smythe in 1997.

 

[reckoning]

Tom Barrasso: He never seems to get any credit. Those two Penguin teams that won the Cup were not very good defensively and didn't give him much in the way of help, but he very solid for them. The pattern in most of those playoff rounds was that Pittsburgh would fall behind early in the series, then Barrasso would get serious and shut the door when the chips were down. Isn't that the definition of a "money goalie" that Fuhr and Cheevers are always praised for?

Yes, he could be inconsistent over the course of his career, and from many accounts he doesn't seem to be the nicest person in the world; but in those two Cup wins he was the definition of clutch.

 

[norrisnick]

Ugh, I was wondering when you would come on and immediately overrate a Wings player. Osgood's best year was '98 and in that year he allowed three goals form outside of the blueline one of them being an overtime winner against Dallas from centre ice. Osgood has always been a product of the Red Wings rather than the other way around. You know if you want to pick only Red Wings a guy like Lidstrom wouldnt have been a terrible choice. Osgood will get you a lot of raised eyebrows in your direction

I'm not overrating anything. Osgood gets **** on so profusely that it's impossible for him to be anything but underrated.

I'm not saying he was the focal point or even top 3 in '98 or '08, but he's a hell of a lot better than "the worst goalie to win a cup" which has been bandied about for a long time now. Or that those cups were won in spite of him.

 

[norrisnick]

The most underrated player from the 1997-2002 Wings teams was easily Sergei Fedorov. I would say that if you step back and objectively evaluate the body of work for each player in the 1997, 1998, and 2002 playoffs, Fedorov produced the highest overall quality of play (i.e. his "average value" was highest). Yet I still argue with people who claim that the Wings could have won all of those cups without him and Yzerman single-handedly carried all those teams to the championship. He's the only guy I felt could have reasonably won the Conn Smythe trophy all 3 years (and should have won it in 1997).

Yzerman, Fedorov, and Lidstrom were crucial for those Cups. Anyone else could have been replaced, but Detroit doesn't win anything without all three of those guys. Fedorov getting that '97 Conn would have capped that era perfectly with the three pillars all having one.

 

[Dark Shadows]

I'm not overrating anything. Osgood gets **** on so profusely that it's impossible for him to be anything but underrated.

I'm not saying he was the focal point or even top 3 in '98 or '08, but he's a hell of a lot better than "the worst goalie to win a cup" which has been bandied about for a long time now. Or that those cups were won in spite of him.

Nobody said he was the worst goalie to win a cup, or that it was won "In spite" of him.

However, we are saying that he is not even remotely close to best goalie in the league, and that around 10 goalies currently in the league could have done better.

Osgood's numbers on other teams would be quite average. Playing behind the best two way forwards and two way defensemen + Team with the most depth has padded his numbers for a long time.

Star goalie upjumped by his team and system. Not a superstar

 

[JaymzB]

Guy Carbonneau in the Habs 93 run. Did an amazing job shutting down Gretzky after game 1 of the finals, plus played very well defensivly in the other 3 series. As a bonus, only scored 3 goals, but 2 were game winners. Another 2 from that team would be Mike Keane and Paul DiPietro.

 

[brianscot]

During Boston's two championships in the Orr/Esposito era, John Bucyk scored 20 goals in 29 playoff games but seldom gets mentioned.

When the Flames went to the finals in 85-86 and won in 88-89, Joey Mullen was their leading goal scorer each time.

On the cup winning team, Mullen tends to get blurred behind Gilmour, Nieuwendyk, Macinnis, Loob, etc.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Nobody said he was the worst goalie to win a cup, or that it was won "In spite" of him.

However, we are saying that he is not even remotely close to best goalie in the league, and that around 10 goalies currently in the league could have done better.

Osgood's numbers on other teams would be quite average. Playing behind the best two way forwards and two way defensemen + Team with the most depth has padded his numbers for a long time.

Star goalie upjumped by his team and system. Not a superstar

His stats aren't much different when he played for the Blues and Islanders.


It's not like his numbers were amazing in Detroit and sucked when he left.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

GAA, s% and GP:

Detroit 2000-2001: 2.69 .903 52
New York 2001-2002: 2.50 .910 66
New York 2002-2003: 2.92 .894 37
St. Louis 2003-2004: 2.24 .910 67
Detroit 2005-2006: 2.76 .897 32

And I didn't include his 9 games in St. Louis in 2003 becuase I don't believe it is a reasonable sample size.

So his numbers were higher the year he left, got reasonbly lower while on the same team, then did even better with St. Louis and then got worse when coming back to Detroit.

No, he was not the best goalie of the playoffs. However he has been said to be the worst goalie to ever win the cup and in 98 people did talk about how the cup was won in spite of Osgood. Yet he has won the cup twice and other goalies have failed despite the great defensive core Detroit has.

 

[Dark Shadows]

His stats aren't much different when he played for the Blues and Islanders.


It's not like his numbers were amazing in Detroit and sucked when he left.

GAA, s% and GP:

Detroit 2000-2001: 2.69 .903 52
New York 2001-2002: 2.50 .910 66
New York 2002-2003: 2.92 .894 37
St. Louis 2003-2004: 2.24 .910 67
Detroit 2005-2006: 2.76 .897 32

And I didn't include his 9 games in St. Louis in 2003 becuase I don't believe it is a reasonable sample size.

So his numbers were higher the year he left, got reasonbly lower while on the same team, then did even better with St. Louis and then got worse when coming back to Detroit.

No, he was not the best goalie of the playoffs. However he has been said to be the worst goalie to ever win the cup and in 98 people did talk about how the cup was won in spite of Osgood. Yet he has won the cup twice and other goalies have failed despite the great defensive core Detroit has.

His numbers were barely top 10 no matter where he played. His win losses as well as his GAA are what get bolstered. That is the point. He is not an elite goalie. Never has been, and likely never will be. His performance in both of his cup wins were never better than 5th best on the team, sometimes worse. Both years saw several players step up and Detroit's depth and Superstars take over playoffs. At least 10 other goalies could have done better in those conditions both years.

Last season, Detroit made moves to improve their blueline(Rafalski is a huge upgrade over Schneider + The acquired Stuart at the deadline) Kronwall, not to mention Datsyuk and Zetterberg peaked(2 of the 3 best defensive forwards in the league, along with an entire arsenal of competent two way forwards to boot) and they were executing their system flawlessly the entire playoff. Osgood never stole games for them. He never needed to. His numbers last year are purely the result of the team he was on.