Player Discussion: Erik Gudbranson | Part 4

[ProstheticConscience]

Any word and when he will be back ?

IIRC he just got the pins out of his wrist. Probably done for the season.

 

[WeegarUnderwood]

Hey guys, how has Guddy looked so far to start the year ?

 

[Siludin]

Hey guys, how has Guddy looked so far to start the year ?

Useful around the net when defending. He's the only imposing physical player on the Canucks so he provides value there. Doubt we will ever see any offensive production out of him. He should be seeing a ton of minutes while Edler & Stecher are out.

 

[Megaterio Llamas]

Hey guys, how has Guddy looked so far to start the year ?

Physically imposing and much better with the puck so far. He hurt his hand again last night in a fight in garbage time with double instigating Caps meathead Tom Wilson. If his hand heals and he plays this way all season he should be a popular free agent item next summer.

 

[Megaterio Llamas]

I did a thread about this around five years or so ago here and I would still like to see a complete overhaul of the hockey fighting code. Traditional street boxing style fighting is no longer viable, in my opinion, with all of the changes in equipment. It's just too easy to break hands in this day and age. Some of the changes I would like to see implemented would seem pretty radical at first but I think they're either going to have to get rid of fighting altogether or change the terms of combat.

The first and probably the most important change should be to the allowable hand striking techniques. I would personally rule out closed fist strikes to the head and replace them with open palm striking techniques of the type utilized in traditional Japanese shoot wrestling organizations like Pancrase and UWF(i) back in the 80s and 90s. Striking with the heel of the palm can still be quite damaging but is unlikely to render an opponent unconscious, and crucially, will not usually result in serious damage to the hand. Closed fist punches to the body would still be allowed. One possible alternative to Pancrase style palm striking would be to outfit the fighter with a specially designed padded inner glove but I'm not sure that is feasible.

Standing choke holds in the clinch should be allowed, giving the opponent the option of tapping or going to sleep. The linesmen would have to on guard and be ready to intervene when choke holds are applied. Code would compel the hockey fighter not to release the unconscious opponent falling to the ice. Shoulder and arm cranking submission techniques would be allowed from the standing position only. Grappling on the ice from the grounded position should be ruled out for obvious reasons. As should the Boroweicki judo throwing techniques from the clinch that we have seen recently creep into the hockey fighting. They are very dangerous and will evetually lead to serious head injury.

If anyone else has any thoughts on this they'd like to share, please do.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Hey guys, how has Guddy looked so far to start the year ?

I would say he's been our worst defender. Still offers nothing offensively, and defensively his controlled zone exits are among the worst on the team. His CF% is by far the worst among our defense. He's such a useless player who doesn't really do anything that leads to wins well, but because he's big and he'll fight some people will love him.

 

[terrible dee]

I did a thread about this around five years or so ago here and I would still like to see a complete overhaul of the hockey fighting code. Traditional street boxing style fighting is no longer viable, in my opinion, with all of the changes in equipment. It's just too easy to break hands in this day and age. Some of the changes I would like to see implemented would seem pretty radical at first but I think they're either going to have to get rid of fighting altogether or change the terms of combat.

The first and probably the most important change should be to the allowable hand striking techniques. I would personally rule out closed fist strikes to the head and replace them with open palm striking techniques of the type utilized in traditional Japanese shoot wrestling organizations like Pancrase and UWF(i) back in the 80s and 90s. Striking with the heel of the palm can still be quite damaging but is unlikely to render an opponent unconscious, and crucially, will not usually result in serious damage to the hand. Closed fist punches to the body would still be allowed. One possible alternative to Pancrase style palm striking would be to outfit the fighter with a specially designed padded inner glove but I'm not sure that is feasible.

Standing choke holds in the clinch should be allowed, giving the opponent the option of tapping or going to sleep. The linesmen would have to on guard and be ready to intervene when choke holds are applied. Code would compel the hockey fighter not to release the unconscious opponent falling to the ice. Shoulder and arm cranking submission techniques would be allowed from the standing position only. Grappling on the ice from the grounded position should be ruled out for obvious reasons. As should the Boroweicki judo throwing techniques from the clinch that we have seen recently creep into the hockey fighting. They are very dangerous and will evetually lead to serious head injury.

If anyone else has any thoughts on this they'd like to share, please do.

Yeah, I can see your point and am familiar with open hand striking as a viable means landing blows and inflicting damage (Some prefer the open hand to the closed fist since you know about Pancrase, I'm willing to bet your familiar with the infamous Antonio Inoki vs Great Antonio work turned shoot match in New Japan. for those who aren't Antonio Anoki was an MMA pioneer and Pro Wrestling promoter who is a legend in both games. He was booked himself in a worked (fake) match against a man known as The Great Antonio who had won "world's strongest man" type competitions, but who was in fact mentally ill and scarcely able to function without handlers. Anoki was one of the most skilled workers (Pro Wrestlers) in the world and it's questionable whether Antonio really understood what a pro wrestling match was. Consequently, the Great Antonio no-sold (didn't act like it hurt) Anokli's offense and seemed to treat the match as some kind of a sideshow joke, unfortunately, the Japanese crowd started laughing. Anoki made his money from his rep as a legitimate shooter (Submission grappler, MMA fighter) and wouldn't stand for being made fun of. He lashed out at Antonio with vicious open palm strikes which knocked the 400 + pounder to the mat unconscious and followed up with a boot to the face. Antonio was a bloody mess, the match gone wrong is on youtube, but I should warn you, it's not actually fun to watch. Big difference between watching willing combatants beat on each other, and watching a mentally ill man being badly beaten in an environment where he shouldn't have been in the first place.)

But I digress, my point in all that wa that open palm strikes are very effective, but would NEVER be adopted by NHL players no matter how potent they can be. They would be humiliated by having to "Sissy-slap" each other. I'm not saying that's right, I'm just saying that's the way it is.

There is a third option you have not listed in the possible evolution of hockey fighting and that is this.

Make the instigator rule apply only at the ref's discretion, and direct them to apply it to those who's fisticuffs are not a direct result of a hockey play (The exception being when say a winger and defensemen get so sick of each other they fight to blow off steam, though one could say this connects to play as well)

Make each player who instigates a fight explain to the refs why it was necessary (in most cases it should be obvious, but use replay if they didn't see it) Now fighting is back in the NHL for the purpose it was intended, to police the game. If the player is only stating fights to harras stars or intimidate the opposition out they go, Delay of game and a game misconduct. If the fight had a legitimate basis for happening, 5 each for fighting (Even if the player who the fight was instigated against turtled, he still gets the same as the other guy)

The Brad Marchand, Matt Cooke type player who rose from the fallout of the instigator as we know it would be extinct and in-game injuries GREATLY reduced, plus this leads to less enforcer on enforcer type fights which are the worst for concussions. Totally eliminates what's left of staged fighting and makes the league a safer place overall for those who play a clean game. For those who choose not to, well you do the crime, do the time. There cannot be a No-Consequence NHL, that is the fantasy of Canadian Socialist "The Government can fix anything" type thought, it is not based in reality.
The reality is this, and it needs to just be accepted: IF YOU want to play in the NHL and make millions of dollars then YOU must take responsibillity for the fact that you have chosen to make your living playing a COMBAT SPORT, if that reality does not suite you then please see your high school guidence councillor for other, safer options. However, if you proceade beyond this point, YOU aknowledge that you have decided to take the risk of perminent injury or death for the possibility of greater rewards. Hither to let it be known that the possible coonsiquences of this decion are YOUR responsibillity.

Problem solved, sometime's Canadians have a hard time relating to reality and personal responsibility , as the government of said country does everything possible to buffer it's citizens against it.

 

[terrible dee]

Something is happening that I am not comfortable with.

Through the course of this young season, I have grown to appreciate and be grateful for the dangerous physical presence Gudbransson brings to the team.

For the first time in a looong time, other teams are going into games against the Canucks saying "Hey, don't fall asleep out there, keep your head up or you could get hurt"

There is actually a Canuck to be feared, not just some guy willing to go through the motions of fighting after one of our players has been hurt, but a guy who might actually do you dirty if you don't keep your head up.

I am starting to........yuck! Ewwww! Graaww! ........want Gudbransson to stay........AHHHHGGGHHH!! I feel Dirty!!!

 

[Mudshark50]

Useful around the net when defending. He's the only imposing physical player on the Canucks so he provides value there. Doubt we will ever see any offensive production out of him. He should be seeing a ton of minutes while Edler & Stecher are out.

I was at the game last night and thought he played OK, just not consistently good. Beat their knuckle dragger in the scrap and knocked some arses to the ice. Helps raise overall team toughness and sandpaper level, which are still useful attributes to have on a team.

 

[terrible dee]

I would say he's been our worst defender. Still offers nothing offensively, and defensively his controlled zone exits are among the worst on the team. His CF% is by far the worst among our defense. He's such a useless player who doesn't really do anything that leads to wins well, but because he's big and he'll fight some people will love him.

No, he isn't useless.....not anymore, I wish he was, no one ripped him harder than me. But what I said is no longer true, I hate to admit it, but the type of physicality he is bringing, the kind that ACTS as oposed to just , is incradibly usefull, that hit in the Boston game is one this team has needed ever since Rome levelled what's his name in the final, what Gudbransson is doing is EXACTLY WHAT WE NEED

 

[Diamonddog01]

I don't mind him and would be ok with keeping him around 3.5 to 4.25 max. Knowing full well he will only be a bottom-pairing defender with limitations.

 

[MS]

He looks like an ok #6 defender playing #4 minutes and being shredded possession-wise as a result. He hasn't been outright awful but has had a bunch of games where he's bend-but-not-break defending and on the back foot all night. Footspeed remains an issue and he's been turnstiled about 10 times already this season although lucky it hasn't led to goals.

He has been much more physical than last year which is I guess entertaining but doesn't really make him any more effective.

 

[Megaterio Llamas]

I must be losing my mind. I've seen him making crisp outlet passes and not screwing up his coverage defending.

And moving pretty well for a big man. Apparently it's just though. Could I be right, and everyone else wrong?

 

[Megaterio Llamas]

Yeah, I can see your point and am familiar with open hand striking as a viable means landing blows and inflicting damage (Some prefer the open hand to the closed fist since you know about Pancrase, I'm willing to bet your familiar with the infamous Antonio Inoki vs Great Antonio work turned shoot match in New Japan. for those who aren't Antonio Anoki was an MMA pioneer and Pro Wrestling promoter who is a legend in both games. He was booked himself in a worked (fake) match against a man known as The Great Antonio who had won "world's strongest man" type competitions, but who was in fact mentally ill and scarcely able to function without handlers. Anoki was one of the most skilled workers (Pro Wrestlers) in the world and it's questionable whether Antonio really understood what a pro wrestling match was. Consequently, the Great Antonio no-sold (didn't act like it hurt) Anokli's offense and seemed to treat the match as some kind of a sideshow joke, unfortunately, the Japanese crowd started laughing. Anoki made his money from his rep as a legitimate shooter (Submission grappler, MMA fighter) and wouldn't stand for being made fun of. He lashed out at Antonio with vicious open palm strikes which knocked the 400 + pounder to the mat unconscious and followed up with a boot to the face. Antonio was a bloody mess, the match gone wrong is on youtube, but I should warn you, it's not actually fun to watch. Big difference between watching willing combatants beat on each other, and watching a mentally ill man being badly beaten in an environment where he shouldn't have been in the first place.)

But I digress, my point in all that wa that open palm strikes are very effective, but would NEVER be adopted by NHL players no matter how potent they can be. They would be humiliated by having to "Sissy-slap" each other. I'm not saying that's right, I'm just saying that's the way it is.

There is a third option you have not listed in the possible evolution of hockey fighting and that is this.

Make the instigator rule apply only at the ref's discretion, and direct them to apply it to those who's fisticuffs are not a direct result of a hockey play (The exception being when say a winger and defensemen get so sick of each other they fight to blow off steam, though one could say this connects to play as well)

Make each player who instigates a fight explain to the refs why it was necessary (in most cases it should be obvious, but use replay if they didn't see it) Now fighting is back in the NHL for the purpose it was intended, to police the game. If the player is only stating fights to harras stars or intimidate the opposition out they go, Delay of game and a game misconduct. If the fight had a legitimate basis for happening, 5 each for fighting (Even if the player who the fight was instigated against turtled, he still gets the same as the other guy)

The Brad Marchand, Matt Cooke type player who rose from the fallout of the instigator as we know it would be extinct and in-game injuries GREATLY reduced, plus this leads to less enforcer on enforcer type fights which are the worst for concussions. Totally eliminates what's left of staged fighting and makes the league a safer place overall for those who play a clean game. For those who choose not to, well you do the crime, do the time. There cannot be a No-Consequence NHL, that is the fantasy of Canadian Socialist "The Government can fix anything" type thought, it is not based in reality.
The reality is this, and it needs to just be accepted: IF YOU want to play in the NHL and make millions of dollars then YOU must take responsibillity for the fact that you have chosen to make your living playing a COMBAT SPORT, if that reality does not suite you then please see your high school guidence councillor for other, safer options. However, if you proceade beyond this point, YOU aknowledge that you have decided to take the risk of perminent injury or death for the possibility of greater rewards. Hither to let it be known that the possible coonsiquences of this decion are YOUR responsibillity.

Problem solved, sometime's Canadians have a hard time relating to reality and personal responsibility , as the government of said country does everything possible to buffer it's citizens against it.

Yes I've seen it. and yeah, it isn't recommended watching. Gudbranson hurt his hand again last night in a fight with a fourth liner he didn't want in late garbage time, that's what prompted all of this from me. Have you seen Boroweicki throwing people from the clinch though? He threw Dorsett hard last year and it wasn't the first time, Dorsett was pretty rattled and was screaming at him about code in the box later. Martial arts have been creeping into hockey fighting for a few years now, I think it's time to either adjust the code to make fighting safer or clamp down on non western techniques before somebody gets hurt.

Watching Gudbranson sink in not one but two gullotines before letting them go and injuring his hand throwing punches last night was pretty demoralizing from my angle anyway. What do you think of glove inserts or some kind of glorified hand wraps at least?

 

[Pavel96]

Hey guys, how has Guddy looked so far to start the year ?

His beard is coming in really nicely - it will be ready for the Movember kick off (Usually his greatest contribution to any team he's on). As well he hasn't sustained any injuries to his face/smile yet - that is still 'Province feature article' worthy. He also looked really cool in a promotional video the Canucks put out - definitely looked like the coolest guy on the team. Hmmm, other than that his pedigree is still looking amazing and he still looks like a really big tough guy. To sum it up he's looking, real good, I guess.

 

[Megaterio Llamas]

His beard is coming in really nicely - it will be ready for the Movember kick off (Usually his greatest contribution to any team he's on). As well he hasn't sustained any injuries to his face/smile yet - that is still 'Province feature article' worthy. He also looked really cool in a promotional video the Canucks put out - definitely looked like the coolest guy on the team. Hmmm, other than that his pedigree is still looking amazing and he still looks like a really big tough guy. To sum it up he's looking, real good, I guess.

He sure is a handsome son of a gun isn't he.

Handsome in that rugged, Clint Eastwood sort of way.

 

[Pavel96]

He sure is a handsome son of a gun isn't he.

Handsome in that rugged, Clint Eastwood sort of way.

But he is also REALLY cool as well. His looks, coolness, size, and finally pedigree = well deserved multiyear extension in the price range of whatever you pay a solid #2-3 dman.

 

[Megaterio Llamas]

But he is also REALLY cool as well. His looks, coolness, size, and finally pedigree = well deserved multiyear extension in the price range of whatever you pay a solid #2-3 dman.

Make that a charismatic #4 with intangibles and you've got a deal

 

[krutovsdonut]

I would say he's been our worst defender. Still offers nothing offensively, and defensively his controlled zone exits are among the worst on the team. His CF% is by far the worst among our defense. He's such a useless player who doesn't really do anything that leads to wins well, but because he's big and he'll fight some people will love him.

and to think i defended you yesterday.

 

[krutovsdonut]

I must be losing my mind. I've seen him making crisp outlet passes and not screwing up his coverage defending.

And moving pretty well for a big man. Apparently it's just though. Could I be right, and everyone else wrong?

he has been doing those things. he's been adapting his game to our system and jettisoning his old static style. hopefully he's not injured and can continue.

he's also significantly nastier out there than i remember last year. connelly last night is another example. i am not 100% sure i like it since it appears he can't fight to back it up, but he is definitely bringing a physical edge.

 

[y2kcanucks]

No, he isn't useless.....not anymore, I wish he was, no one ripped him harder than me. But what I said is no longer true, I hate to admit it, but the type of physicality he is bringing, the kind that ACTS as oposed to just , is incradibly usefull, that hit in the Boston game is one this team has needed ever since Rome levelled what's his name in the final, what Gudbransson is doing is EXACTLY WHAT WE NEED

Actually I kinda agree with you. That hit in the Boston game was exactly what this team needed. It led to a 5 minute penalty where Boston scored 3 goals, and eventually won the game. That's exactly what this team needs.

 

[Pip]

I must be losing my mind. I've seen him making crisp outlet passes and not screwing up his coverage defending.

And moving pretty well for a big man. Apparently it's just though. Could I be right, and everyone else wrong?

That just means that he moves poorly for an NHLer.

 

[VancouverJagger]

People can hate on EG all they like - I admit he isn't always strong positionally and sometimes his decisions are suspect but he brings an element to our team that is sorely lacking. He's a mean SOB out there who is BY FAR the toughest guy on our team. I tend to think he makes the other team take a lot less liberties with ours and for that I am more than willing to put up with the odd lapse of judgement. Overall he's starting to come into his own I feel and unless we replace him next year with someone who brings what he does to the table I definitely don't mind re-signing him.

 

[VancouverJagger]

Actually I kinda agree with you. That hit in the Boston game was exactly what this team needed. It led to a 5 minute penalty where Boston scored 3 goals, and eventually won the game. That's exactly what this team needs.

Do you ever have anything positive to say? Do you consciously wake up in the morning and decide "Hell yeah - everything sucks!" or is it just so ingrained that it comes naturally?

 

[WTG]

Like I said before, the guy can't move the puck out of our zone to save his life and is a liability to his partner especially if the other teams have proper scouting and review the games. He will make if harder for his partner who should theoretically be double teamed and will also have all the responsibility to move the puck out of the zone.

From a purely transitional standpoint, Gudbranson is a complete and total disaster.

But in a different school of thought in hockey is the retrieving the puck in the corners and his physicality. So people will defend him because he is good at retrieving pucks and being tough in corners. These two schools of thought have massively different ways of viewing a player like Gudbranson. There is overlap here, that being good in corners and retrieving pucks can lead to an increase in zone transition stats. I would say Tanev transcends these 2 schools of thought by just being a beast at retrieving pucks and transitioning.

However, Gudbranson doesn't. In-fact I'd consider him a complete liability defensively. Because he puts too much pressure on his partner to move the puck up the ice and if teams were better at scouting that weakness he will get abused. Eventually teams will key into this at the end of the season and he will look worse. And with the amount of data and coaching that has evolved over the years these sorts of weaknesses are easier and easier to spot and abuse. It would be a smart way to get rid of this type of player, because the road will only get harder for him.