Plante, Sawchuk and Hall

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by KingGallagherXI, Jul 14, 2011.

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  1. KingGallagherXI

    KingGallagherXI Registered User

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    In the 2009 HoH top 100, Plante is listed as the 2nd best goalie all-time (13th player overall), while Sawchuk is 4th (24th) and Hall is 5th (25th).

    My question is this: what were the arguments for this particular ranking? Hall was voted 7 times as the best goalie in the league (1st team All-Star), while Plante and Sawchuk received that honor 3 times. Why isn't Hall considered better than both of them? I know Plante had the most dominant single-season with his Hart season in 62. Any other reasons, maybe playoff performance? And what about Sawchuk, why is he ranked before Hall?
     
  2. Axxellien

    Axxellien Registered User

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    ..Rankings:

    ..these rankings are purely arbitrary...Hall, Plante & Sawchuck were superb Goalies..The best of All-Time..for varying reasons..
     
  3. unknown33

    unknown33 Registered User

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    Playoffs?
     
  4. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    Axxellien is right... I personally just picked them out of a hat.
     
  5. RabbinsDuck

    RabbinsDuck Registered User

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    Hall has one Cup and a Conn Smythe but so many years his GAA went way up in the playoffs, while Sawchuk and Plante were well known for many more great playoff performances.

    I think it is the playoffs that holds Hall back the most.
     
  6. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    I have always felt that there is almost a universal acceptance of the top 6 goalies of all-time. There is the trifecta from the 1950s and 60s and that's Hall, Plante and Sawchuk. Then there's the 1990s trifecta with Brodeur, Roy, Hasek. Even the best hockey experts (and a lot of us classify as experts on here) have varying opinions on the order, but that is usually the top 6. After that there's a small drop with the likes of Broda, Benedict, Dryden, Parent, etc. occupying those spots. There also isn't anyone on the horizon capable of taking a top 6 spot either. Luongo? Too many warts. Fleury? Needs tons of Vezinas. Thomas? Amazing peak but might be too old to ever get there.

    That being said I've always put Sawchuk #1 out of the 1950s goalies. Plante follows him and then Hall. The reasons are simple for me. Sawchuk had the best peak and was still a good goalie up until 1967. Plante was a little more consistent but had the retirement that hurt him mid career but also aged better than any three of them. Hall has the all-star nods but out of the three clearly has the worst playoff portfolio.

    I rarely find Hall to be rated the best out of the three of them since he was part of the reason for some big collapses in the postseason with Chicago (can't blame Hull or Mikita too much). But he did win a Cup and then won a Smythe in a losing cause so he does have some contributions
     
  7. RabbinsDuck

    RabbinsDuck Registered User

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    Sawchuk has a unique supremly high peak and also career numbers that lasted in the record books for decades. He fell a lot in the last few years or so, but I am back to thinking he is better than Plante, whom I have had 1st of the Original 6 goalies for a while now - largely because of his Hart.

    So right now I have:

    1) Hasek

    2) Roy
    3) Sawchuk
    4) Plante

    5) Hall



    6) Dryden
    7) Broduer
    8) Tretiak

    Roy/Sawchuk/Plante I tend to flip-flop the most on. I have Hall a step below and Broduer a further step below.
     
  8. mbhhofr

    mbhhofr Registered User

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    One goalie that gets overlooked is Bill Durnan, who played for the Canadiens 1943-1950. Seven years in the NHL and he won the Vezina Trophy six times. He was also selected to the first all star team six times.
     
  9. Axxellien

    Axxellien Registered User

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    ..Mr. Zero..Frank Brimsek..The great Veteran Harry Lumley...
     
  10. I agree, I think he should be firmly placed as the 3rd best goalie behind Hasek and Roy.
     
  11. Epsilon

    Epsilon #basta

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    Mine is:

    1. Hasek

    2. Roy
    3. Plante

    4. Sawchuk
    5. Brodeur
    6. Hall

    7. Dryden

    I flip-flop a bit on Sawchuk and Brodeur, I could see listing Brodeur 4th and I probably have a few times.
     
  12. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    I believe the main discussion can be found in the thread for players 11-15 of the 2008 list. Let us know if it's actually there.
     
  13. Ogopogo*

    Ogopogo* Guest

    Not only was Hall selected as the best goaltender in the NHL 7 times, he was also selected the 2nd best goaltedner 4 times. 11 times the man was one of the two best goalies in the game! Nobody else is close (Brimsek is second with 8 first or second selections); Hall is the clear #1 goaltender of all time, IMO.
     
  14. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    Hmm, it doesn't concern you that there's another guy with 6 Vezinas achieved in much more dominant fashion, andhe did it when there was plenty of flash-in-the-pan potential among the other six teams? And that he won two harts as well?
     
  15. Ogopogo*

    Ogopogo* Guest

    Glenn Hall got nearly the same degree of Hart Trophy ballots as Hasek during his career. Actually winning is not significantly different from finishing #2 in the balloting. Hall also has a Smythe where Hasek has none.

    Hasek had 6 great seasons and Hall had 11. At my school they taught me that 11 > 6.
     
  16. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Do you rank Brodeur over Roy?
     
  17. Ogopogo*

    Ogopogo* Guest

    No. I have it like this:

    1. Hall
    2. Roy
    3. Sawchuk
    4. Brodeur
    5. Dryden
    6. Hasek
    7. Plante
    8. Brimsek
     
    Last edited by moderator : Jul 15, 2011
  18. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Why? Brodeur has 1 more Vezina and was a postseason All-Star 1 more time? Heh.

    Curious to know why you have Dryden over Hasek.
     
  19. Ogopogo*

    Ogopogo* Guest

    Roy has 3 Smythes, Brodeur has 0.

    Dryden was #1 5 times and #2 once. Dryden has a Smythe Hasek does not. And, although winning the Cup is a team effort, being a cup winning goaltender is still a significant accomplishement. Dryden is ahead 6 to 1 in Cups. Hasek had 6 great seasons, so did Dryden. The margin I have between them is pretty miniscule but Dryden is ahead.
     
  20. nik jr

    nik jr Registered User

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    http://brodeurisafraud.blogspot.com/2009/09/dont-always-believe-your-lying-eyes.html


    hall's sv% (from hockeydb) and rank in those seasons
    '57: .927 (1st)
    '58: .909 (tied for 5th with marcel paille)*
    '60: .918 (2nd to bower's .919)
    '64: .929 (2nd to bower's .933)
    '69: .928 (2nd to teammate plante's .940)

    * flyershistory calculated hall's sv% as .908 in this thread: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=675698


    hall played 14 more games than bower in '64. hall played more games than plante in '69, and i think overpass has posted that plante usually faced weaker teams than hall in STL.

    '58 is also strange, b/c chicago had a bad record (24-39-7) and missed the playoffs (and were not close to making the playoffs).

    hall was also 5th in hart voting in '58.
    1957-58
    HART: (315/324, 138-155)
    1. Gordie Howe, Det RW 105 (47-58)
    2. Andy Bathgate, NYR RW 70 (11-59)
    3. Doug Harvey, Mtl D 41 (27-14)
    4. Henri Richard, Mtl C 40 (30-10)
    5. Glenn Hall, Chi G 37 (23-14)
    6. Bill Gadsby, NYR D 9
    7. Camille Henry, NYR C 6
    8. Dickie Moore, Mtl LW 4
    9. Fleming Mackell, Bos C 3
    10. seven players with one point
     
  21. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Hall didn't just "play in 75% of his team's games," he played in 100% of them. I'm sure that mattered... a lot.
     
  22. BM67

    BM67 Registered User

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    Known Hart voting records:

    1951-52: Sawchuk T4th 13/90
    1954-55: Sawchuk T15th 2/180
    1955-56: Sawchuk 11th 1/180
    1956-57: Sawchuk 4th 35/180
    1957-58: Hall 5th 37/180
    1958-59: Sawchuk 4th 34/180; Plante 10th 5/180; Hall T11th 3/180
    1959-60: Hall 3rd 44/180; Sawchuk T7th 7/180
    1960-61: Hall 5th 25/180
    1961-62: Plante 1st 94/180; Hall 6th 25/180
    1962-63: Sawchuk 3rd 44/180; Hall 4th 42/180; Plante T9th 8/180
    1963-64: Hall 6th 25/180; Sawchuk T7th 3/180; Plante T12th 1/180
    1965-66: Hall 4th 21/180
    1967-68: Hall 8th 5/120
    1968-69: Hall 8th 7/180; Plante T12th 3/180
    1970-71: Plante 5th 16/210


    Known Goaltender All-Star voting records:

    1950-51: Sawchuk 1st 70/90
    1951-52: Sawchuk 1st 90/90
    1952-53: Sawchuk 1st 69/90
    1953-54: Sawchuk 2nd 95/180
    1954-55: Sawchuk 2nd 128/180
    1955-56: Plante 1st 119/180; Hall 2nd 84/180
    1956-57: Hall 1st 121/180; Plante 2nd 85/180; Sawchuk 3rd 67/90 (1st half voting only)
    1957-58: Hall 1st 108/180; Plante 2nd 104/180
    1958-59: Plante 1st 145/180; Sawchuk 2nd 98/180
    1959-60: Hall 1st 106/180; Plante 2nd 105/180; Sawchuk 3rd 65/90 (1st half voting only)
    1960-61: Hall 2nd 113/180; Sawchuk 2/90 (1st half voting only)
    1961-62: Plante 1st 157/180; Hall 2nd 86/180
    1962-63: Hall 1st 142/180; Sawchuk 2nd 76/180; Plante 3rd 71/180
    1963-64: Hall 1st 132/180; Sawchuk 9/90 (1st half voting only); Plante 4/90 (1st half voting only)
    1964-65: Hall 4th 27/180; Sawchuk 5th 23/180
    1965-66: Hall 1st 144/180
    1966-67: Hall 2nd 62/180; Sawchuk 5th 9/180
    1967-68: Hall 4th 24/120; Sawchuk T10th 3/120
    1968-69: Hall 1st 115/180; Plante 3rd 61/180
    1969-70: Plante 3rd 28/180
    1970-71: Plante 2nd 111/210; Hall T6th 1/210
    1972-73: Plante T12th 1/240
     
  23. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    I think you're looking at it far too black and white here. Not all "great" seasons are as great as eachother and not all hart seasons are the same, either. No one would have ever called Glenn Hall the best player in the world at any time, nor was he really that close, despite the hart record. Hasek was exactly that for a period of two seasons, and there was little doubt about that.
     
  24. cbh

    cbh Registered User

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    Yes, I realize that this is an old thread......

    Original six (pre league expansion dilution)

    Jacques Plante (#1)

    Stanley Cups: (6)
    Vezina Trophy (7)
    MVP: (1)
    1st team all-star (3)
    2nd team all-star (4)
    Career GAA: 2.38


    Glenn Hall (#2)

    Stanley Cups (1)
    Vezina Trophy (3)
    MVP: (1) (playoffs)
    1st team all-star: (7)
    2nd team all-star: (3)
    Career GAA: 2.49

    Terry Sawchuk (#3)

    Stanley Cups: (4)
    Vezina Trophy: (4)
    MVP: (0)
    1st team all-star: (3)
    2nd team all-star: (4)
    Career GAA: 2.52

    --------------------------------------------


    Post....


    Dominik Hasek

    Stanley Cups: (2)
    Vezina Trophy: (6)
    MVP: (2)
    1st team all-star: (6)
    2nd team all-star: (0)
    Career GAA: 2.20


    Martin Brodeur

    Stanley Cups: (3)
    Vezina Trophy: (4)
    MVP: (0)
    1st team all-star: (3)
    2nd team all-star: (4)
    Career GAA: 2.24

    Patrick Roy

    Stanley Cups: (4)
    Vezina Trophy: (3)
    MVP: (3) playoffs
    1st team all-star: (4)
    2nd team all-star: (2)
    Career GAA: 2.54
     
  25. Thenameless

    Thenameless Registered User

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    I'm a Habs fan, and I am too young to have seen them play.

    From listening to a lot of old-timers talk hockey at hockey card conventions, Sawchuk seems to generally be ahead of Plante, with Hall behind these two.
     

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