Plante, Sawchuk and Hall

[KingGallagherXI]

In the 2009 HoH top 100, Plante is listed as the 2nd best goalie all-time (13th player overall), while Sawchuk is 4th (24th) and Hall is 5th (25th).

My question is this: what were the arguments for this particular ranking? Hall was voted 7 times as the best goalie in the league (1st team All-Star), while Plante and Sawchuk received that honor 3 times. Why isn't Hall considered better than both of them? I know Plante had the most dominant single-season with his Hart season in 62. Any other reasons, maybe playoff performance? And what about Sawchuk, why is he ranked before Hall?

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[Axxellien]

..Rankings:

..these rankings are purely arbitrary...Hall, Plante & Sawchuck were superb Goalies..The best of All-Time..for varying reasons..

 

[unknown33]

Playoffs?

 

[seventieslord]

..these rankings are purely arbitrary...Hall, Plante & Sawchuck were superb Goalies..The best of All-Time..for varying reasons..

Axxellien is right... I personally just picked them out of a hat.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Hall has one Cup and a Conn Smythe but so many years his GAA went way up in the playoffs, while Sawchuk and Plante were well known for many more great playoff performances.

I think it is the playoffs that holds Hall back the most.

 

[Big Phil]

I have always felt that there is almost a universal acceptance of the top 6 goalies of all-time. There is the trifecta from the 1950s and 60s and that's Hall, Plante and Sawchuk. Then there's the 1990s trifecta with Brodeur, Roy, Hasek. Even the best hockey experts (and a lot of us classify as experts on here) have varying opinions on the order, but that is usually the top 6. After that there's a small drop with the likes of Broda, Benedict, Dryden, Parent, etc. occupying those spots. There also isn't anyone on the horizon capable of taking a top 6 spot either. Luongo? Too many warts. Fleury? Needs tons of Vezinas. Thomas? Amazing peak but might be too old to ever get there.

That being said I've always put Sawchuk #1 out of the 1950s goalies. Plante follows him and then Hall. The reasons are simple for me. Sawchuk had the best peak and was still a good goalie up until 1967. Plante was a little more consistent but had the retirement that hurt him mid career but also aged better than any three of them. Hall has the all-star nods but out of the three clearly has the worst playoff portfolio.

I rarely find Hall to be rated the best out of the three of them since he was part of the reason for some big collapses in the postseason with Chicago (can't blame Hull or Mikita too much). But he did win a Cup and then won a Smythe in a losing cause so he does have some contributions

 

[RabbinsDuck]

I have always felt that there is almost a universal acceptance of the top 6 goalies of all-time. There is the trifecta from the 1950s and 60s and that's Hall, Plante and Sawchuk. Then there's the 1990s trifecta with Brodeur, Roy, Hasek. Even the best hockey experts (and a lot of us classify as experts on here) have varying opinions on the order, but that is usually the top 6. After that there's a small drop with the likes of Broda, Benedict, Dryden, Parent, etc. occupying those spots. There also isn't anyone on the horizon capable of taking a top 6 spot either. Luongo? Too many warts. Fleury? Needs tons of Vezinas. Thomas? Amazing peak but might be too old to ever get there.

That being said I've always put Sawchuk #1 out of the 1950s goalies. Plante follows him and then Hall. The reasons are simple for me. Sawchuk had the best peak and was still a good goalie up until 1967. Plante was a little more consistent but had the retirement that hurt him mid career but also aged better than any three of them. Hall has the all-star nods but out of the three clearly has the worst playoff portfolio.

I rarely find Hall to be rated the best out of the three of them since he was part of the reason for some big collapses in the postseason with Chicago (can't blame Hull or Mikita too much). But he did win a Cup and then won a Smythe in a losing cause so he does have some contributions

Sawchuk has a unique supremly high peak and also career numbers that lasted in the record books for decades. He fell a lot in the last few years or so, but I am back to thinking he is better than Plante, whom I have had 1st of the Original 6 goalies for a while now - largely because of his Hart.

So right now I have:

1) Hasek

2) Roy
3) Sawchuk
4) Plante

5) Hall



6) Dryden
7) Broduer
8) Tretiak

Roy/Sawchuk/Plante I tend to flip-flop the most on. I have Hall a step below and Broduer a further step below.

 

[mbhhofr]

One goalie that gets overlooked is Bill Durnan, who played for the Canadiens 1943-1950. Seven years in the NHL and he won the Vezina Trophy six times. He was also selected to the first all star team six times.

 

[Axxellien]

One goalie that gets overlooked is Bill Durnan, who played for the Canadiens 1943-1950. Seven years in the NHL and he won the Vezina Trophy six times. He was also selected to the first all star team six times.

..Mr. Zero..Frank Brimsek..The great Veteran Harry Lumley...

 

[Infinite Vision*]

I agree, I think he should be firmly placed as the 3rd best goalie behind Hasek and Roy.

 

[Epsilon]

Sawchuk has a unique supremly high peak and also career numbers that lasted in the record books for decades. He fell a lot in the last few years or so, but I am back to thinking he is better than Plante, whom I have had 1st of the Original 6 goalies for a while now - largely because of his Hart.

So right now I have:

1) Hasek

2) Roy
3) Sawchuk
4) Plante

5) Hall



6) Dryden
7) Broduer
8) Tretiak

Roy/Sawchuk/Plante I tend to flip-flop the most on. I have Hall a step below and Broduer a further step below.

Mine is:

1. Hasek

2. Roy
3. Plante

4. Sawchuk
5. Brodeur
6. Hall

7. Dryden

I flip-flop a bit on Sawchuk and Brodeur, I could see listing Brodeur 4th and I probably have a few times.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I believe the main discussion can be found in the thread for players 11-15 of the 2008 list. Let us know if it's actually there.

 

[Ogopogo*]

In the 2009 HoH top 100, Plante is listed as the 2nd best goalie all-time (13th player overall), while Sawchuk is 4th (24th) and Hall is 5th (25th).

My question is this: what were the arguments for this particular ranking? Hall was voted 7 times as the best goalie in the league (1st team All-Star), while Plante and Sawchuk received that honor 3 times. Why isn't Hall considered better than both of them? I know Plante had the most dominant single-season with his Hart season in 62. Any other reasons, maybe playoff performance? And what about Sawchuk, why is he ranked before Hall?

Not only was Hall selected as the best goaltender in the NHL 7 times, he was also selected the 2nd best goaltedner 4 times. 11 times the man was one of the two best goalies in the game! Nobody else is close (Brimsek is second with 8 first or second selections); Hall is the clear #1 goaltender of all time, IMO.

 

[seventieslord]

Not only was Hall selected as the best goaltender in the NHL 7 times, he was also selected the 2nd best goaltedner 4 times. 11 times the man was one of the two best goalies in the game! Nobody else is close (Brimsek is second with 8 first or second selections); Hall is the clear #1 goaltender of all time, IMO.

Hmm, it doesn't concern you that there's another guy with 6 Vezinas achieved in much more dominant fashion, andhe did it when there was plenty of flash-in-the-pan potential among the other six teams? And that he won two harts as well?

 

[Ogopogo*]

Hmm, it doesn't concern you that there's another guy with 6 Vezinas achieved in much more dominant fashion, andhe did it when there was plenty of flash-in-the-pan potential among the other six teams? And that he won two harts as well?

Glenn Hall got nearly the same degree of Hart Trophy ballots as Hasek during his career. Actually winning is not significantly different from finishing #2 in the balloting. Hall also has a Smythe where Hasek has none.

Hasek had 6 great seasons and Hall had 11. At my school they taught me that 11 > 6.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Not only was Hall selected as the best goaltender in the NHL 7 times, he was also selected the 2nd best goaltedner 4 times. 11 times the man was one of the two best goalies in the game! Nobody else is close (Brimsek is second with 8 first or second selections); Hall is the clear #1 goaltender of all time, IMO.

Do you rank Brodeur over Roy?

 

[Ogopogo*]

Do you rank Brodeur over Roy?

No. I have it like this:

1. Hall
2. Roy
3. Sawchuk
4. Brodeur
5. Dryden
6. Hasek
7. Plante
8. Brimsek

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

No. I have it like this:

1. Hall
2. Roy
3. Sawchuk
4. Brodeur
5. Dryden
6. Hasek
7. Plante
8. Brimsek

Why? Brodeur has 1 more Vezina and was a postseason All-Star 1 more time? Heh.

Curious to know why you have Dryden over Hasek.

 

[Ogopogo*]

Why? Brodeur has 1 more Vezina and was a postseason All-Star 1 more time? Heh.

Curious to know why you have Dryden over Hasek.

Roy has 3 Smythes, Brodeur has 0.

Dryden was #1 5 times and #2 once. Dryden has a Smythe Hasek does not. And, although winning the Cup is a team effort, being a cup winning goaltender is still a significant accomplishement. Dryden is ahead 6 to 1 in Cups. Hasek had 6 great seasons, so did Dryden. The margin I have between them is pretty miniscule but Dryden is ahead.

 

[nik jr]

From 1935 to 1970, there is a very simple algorithm to determine the First Team All-Star goalie. Look at all the goalies who played in at least 75% of their team's games, rank them by goals against average, and take the guy at the top of the list. That's the First Team All-Star. That solution worked in 30 out of 36 seasons, all of them except for 1957, 1958, 1960, 1964, 1968 and 1969. Here are the goalies who were named First Team All-Star ahead of the high-minutes GAA leader in those seasons:

1957: Glenn Hall
1958: Glenn Hall
1960: Glenn Hall
1964: Glenn Hall
1968: Gump Worsley**
1969: Glenn Hall

**-Led the league in GAA by a wide margin but did not play in 75% of his team's games during a season where all of the top 4 guys in GAA were in platoon situations.

Glenn Hall was quite obviously the exception to the rule. That he was the only guy to get named the league's best goalie without playing on one of the league's top defensive teams reflects well on him, and it's even more impressive that he did it 5 times. That shows that he was considered a difference-maker and is evidence of why he is considered one of the best goalies to ever play the game.

http://brodeurisafraud.blogspot.com/2009/09/dont-always-believe-your-lying-eyes.html


hall's sv% (from hockeydb) and rank in those seasons
'57: .927 (1st)
'58: .909 (tied for 5th with marcel paille)*
'60: .918 (2nd to bower's .919)
'64: .929 (2nd to bower's .933)
'69: .928 (2nd to teammate plante's .940)

* flyershistory calculated hall's sv% as .908 in this thread: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=675698


hall played 14 more games than bower in '64. hall played more games than plante in '69, and i think overpass has posted that plante usually faced weaker teams than hall in STL.

'58 is also strange, b/c chicago had a bad record (24-39-7) and missed the playoffs (and were not close to making the playoffs).

hall was also 5th in hart voting in '58.
1957-58
HART: (315/324, 138-155)
1. Gordie Howe, Det RW 105 (47-58)
2. Andy Bathgate, NYR RW 70 (11-59)
3. Doug Harvey, Mtl D 41 (27-14)
4. Henri Richard, Mtl C 40 (30-10)
5. Glenn Hall, Chi G 37 (23-14)
6. Bill Gadsby, NYR D 9
7. Camille Henry, NYR C 6
8. Dickie Moore, Mtl LW 4
9. Fleming Mackell, Bos C 3
10. seven players with one point

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Hall didn't just "play in 75% of his team's games," he played in 100% of them. I'm sure that mattered... a lot.

 

[BM67]

Known Hart voting records:

1951-52: Sawchuk T4th 13/90
1954-55: Sawchuk T15th 2/180
1955-56: Sawchuk 11th 1/180
1956-57: Sawchuk 4th 35/180
1957-58: Hall 5th 37/180
1958-59: Sawchuk 4th 34/180; Plante 10th 5/180; Hall T11th 3/180
1959-60: Hall 3rd 44/180; Sawchuk T7th 7/180
1960-61: Hall 5th 25/180
1961-62: Plante 1st 94/180; Hall 6th 25/180
1962-63: Sawchuk 3rd 44/180; Hall 4th 42/180; Plante T9th 8/180
1963-64: Hall 6th 25/180; Sawchuk T7th 3/180; Plante T12th 1/180
1965-66: Hall 4th 21/180
1967-68: Hall 8th 5/120
1968-69: Hall 8th 7/180; Plante T12th 3/180
1970-71: Plante 5th 16/210


Known Goaltender All-Star voting records:

1950-51: Sawchuk 1st 70/90
1951-52: Sawchuk 1st 90/90
1952-53: Sawchuk 1st 69/90
1953-54: Sawchuk 2nd 95/180
1954-55: Sawchuk 2nd 128/180
1955-56: Plante 1st 119/180; Hall 2nd 84/180
1956-57: Hall 1st 121/180; Plante 2nd 85/180; Sawchuk 3rd 67/90 (1st half voting only)
1957-58: Hall 1st 108/180; Plante 2nd 104/180
1958-59: Plante 1st 145/180; Sawchuk 2nd 98/180
1959-60: Hall 1st 106/180; Plante 2nd 105/180; Sawchuk 3rd 65/90 (1st half voting only)
1960-61: Hall 2nd 113/180; Sawchuk 2/90 (1st half voting only)
1961-62: Plante 1st 157/180; Hall 2nd 86/180
1962-63: Hall 1st 142/180; Sawchuk 2nd 76/180; Plante 3rd 71/180
1963-64: Hall 1st 132/180; Sawchuk 9/90 (1st half voting only); Plante 4/90 (1st half voting only)
1964-65: Hall 4th 27/180; Sawchuk 5th 23/180
1965-66: Hall 1st 144/180
1966-67: Hall 2nd 62/180; Sawchuk 5th 9/180
1967-68: Hall 4th 24/120; Sawchuk T10th 3/120
1968-69: Hall 1st 115/180; Plante 3rd 61/180
1969-70: Plante 3rd 28/180
1970-71: Plante 2nd 111/210; Hall T6th 1/210
1972-73: Plante T12th 1/240

 

[seventieslord]

Glenn Hall got nearly the same degree of Hart Trophy ballots as Hasek during his career. Actually winning is not significantly different from finishing #2 in the balloting. Hall also has a Smythe where Hasek has none.

Hasek had 6 great seasons and Hall had 11. At my school they taught me that 11 > 6.

I think you're looking at it far too black and white here. Not all "great" seasons are as great as eachother and not all hart seasons are the same, either. No one would have ever called Glenn Hall the best player in the world at any time, nor was he really that close, despite the hart record. Hasek was exactly that for a period of two seasons, and there was little doubt about that.

 

[cbh]

Yes, I realize that this is an old thread......

Original six (pre league expansion dilution)

Jacques Plante (#1)

Stanley Cups: (6)
Vezina Trophy (7)
MVP: (1)
1st team all-star (3)
2nd team all-star (4)
Career GAA: 2.38


Glenn Hall (#2)

Stanley Cups (1)
Vezina Trophy (3)
MVP: (1) (playoffs)
1st team all-star: (7)
2nd team all-star: (3)
Career GAA: 2.49

Terry Sawchuk (#3)

Stanley Cups: (4)
Vezina Trophy: (4)
MVP: (0)
1st team all-star: (3)
2nd team all-star: (4)
Career GAA: 2.52

--------------------------------------------


Post....


Dominik Hasek

Stanley Cups: (2)
Vezina Trophy: (6)
MVP: (2)
1st team all-star: (6)
2nd team all-star: (0)
Career GAA: 2.20


Martin Brodeur

Stanley Cups: (3)
Vezina Trophy: (4)
MVP: (0)
1st team all-star: (3)
2nd team all-star: (4)
Career GAA: 2.24

Patrick Roy

Stanley Cups: (4)
Vezina Trophy: (3)
MVP: (3) playoffs
1st team all-star: (4)
2nd team all-star: (2)
Career GAA: 2.54

 

[Thenameless]

I'm a Habs fan, and I am too young to have seen them play.

From listening to a lot of old-timers talk hockey at hockey card conventions, Sawchuk seems to generally be ahead of Plante, with Hall behind these two.