Planning For ATD12

[VanIslander]

you guys decide on something

Click to read more...

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

I was just thinking of opening this discussion.

I'm not fond of the trade rule. But, I agree we need some rules, and that's as fair a rule as we'll get. So I'll accept it.

Speaking as someone who is only really online twice a day, I'd tighten the clocks even further.

12 hour clock for the first two rounds,
then 10 hour clock for rounds 3-8,
then 8 hour clock for rounds 8-14,
then 6 hour clock for rounds 15-20,
then 4 hour clock for rounds 21-24.

But, that might just be me. Honestly though, if you are within the next 5-10 picks and you are going out for the day or going to bed, SEND A LIST!!! (If you are going to bed and you live in North America, I can take a list, even if I'm not around to say it. I'm a night owl who works until 10pm-12am. So I'll get home and see the list and be able to announce the pick.)

I'd also say, the only series that should get a full write up is the finals. Every other one, just a report.

 

[VanIslander]

I'd also say, the only series that should get a full write up is the finals. Every other one, just a report.

I was thinking it'd be nice if the four divisional finals got write-ups. Of course, under a tight playoff schedule, volunteers would have to be ready and willing within a 12-18 hour window to get them done.

The conference finals definitely should get showtime treatment because those two series feature the four divisional championship teams!

 

[EagleBelfour]

I'd also say, the only series that should get a full write up is the finals. Every other one, just a report.

Ya, my reports were sexy, best commish decision I've ever made

I agree with everything on the list.

 

[papershoes]

everything posted here looks good.

i agree with nalyd's reworking of the time limits.

also, the trade idea works fairly well.

 

[seventieslord]

Well, it's still summer but time to start preparing for the fall all-time draft.
As one of the vets going back to ATD3, I'm interested in running it.
Here's how I'd do it.

1. Sign-up period to be September 1-14th, the 15th the absolute deadline. Every past ATD GM would receive a PM invite. The target number for recruiting efforts would be 32 teams (not 28). The draft clock would begin at noon on Friday, September 18th.

It must be 32 teams. So much better than 28. The more, the better.

The only objection you'll hear from me is, why must we be a slave to the six-month rotation? Why can't we space these out better? I know some of you feel this way too; you tell me in private messages, then when it's time to speak up, you don't!

2. Draft order and divisions entirely determined by random method (e.g., spits' hat draw if he's willing again) on September 16th, two days before the draft begins.

good.

ii) Roster thread posts to be in order by division, that is, all the teams in one division will put their first post on the thread before any team in the next division will post there. (This coordination will make it easier to see all the teams developing in one's division together, and it certainly will make it easier to do regular season ranking evaluations for GMs.)

sure.

3. NO TRADES except for SAME ROUND TRADES, that is, only the trading of picks within the same round/s (e.g. my 1st and 8th for your 1st and 8th).

(who on earth would trade a 1st and 8th for a 1st and 8th? The point is, you give up some spots now, to get more spots later, not the same number of spots.)

I agree that trades need to be regulated in some way, but this is going too far. Trades are a fun x-factor in the draft. This rule would effectively eliminate trades altogether. Perhaps we want to look at a total limit of trades per team; that is, no team can make more than 3 trades, and no team can trade more than a total of 10 assets in those three trades.

We, as a group, just need to call out lopsided trades (like we did last time) and then veto them when we have the opportunity (like we didn't last time). Trades would be fine after that.

4. Pre-set, expected time window conditions:

18 hour clock for the first two rounds,
then 12 hour clock for rounds 3-8,
then 8 hour clock for rounds 8-14,
then 6 hour clock for rounds 15-20,
then 4 hour clock for rounds 21-24.

One hour time window deduction for each skipped pick with a minimum 4 hour clock guaranteed regardless of deductions.

I think that 4 hours is much too harsh for someone who's never missed a pick all draft.

I also think that in round 24, 4 hours is much too generous for someone who has missed picks throughout - it wipes out the penalty that they earned.

I've ran two drafts at leafschat, and we have had 12 hour deadlines throughout. Don't worry, I'm not going to suggest that here. But I see no reason for there to even be 18-hour deadlines to begin with. We have never had a problem with 12-hour deadlines and the GMs there aren't even as reliable as the GMs here.

Why not this:

Rounds 1-6: 12 hours
Rounds 7-12: 10 hours
Rounds 13-18: 8 hours
Rounds 19-24: 6 hours

The theoretical maximum lengths of the draft under either setup is nearly identical. This way we don't switch four times, making it that much harder for everyone to follow. It's just three changes. The changes also happen at uniform times: after rounds 6, 12, and 18. Not 2, 8, 14, 20.

Then, penalize GMs one hour for missed picks and adhere to it, even if it means they have no deadline in rounds 19-24. If they don't, it's their fault, and they'll soon learn that they either must be present at the moment their pick comes up, or they send a list. And in future drafts, they'll be sure to send a list and make sure not to dig themselves a hole again.

5. Regular season rankings MUST BE VOTED ON by at least one GM (if the team is co-GM'd) per team. The penalty if not done is a lowering in the standings because we would also be ranking our own teams in our own divisions (e.g., most teams will rank their own team 1st in their own division; if a team doesn't vote they loose out on a 1st place vote opportunity and hence their team's ranking will be lower than it could have been).

good.

6. PLAYOFF FORMAT TO BE A SET RESPONSIBILITY.

i) VOTING expected of every team, even after eliminated. In a 32-team draft, there will be 16 teams/8 series starting after the first round, and the 16 just eliminated teams are to vote on the eight series in round two, four series in the divisional finals, two series in the conference finals and the championship final. This is an obligation you take on when joining the all-time draft. (Choosing to have a co-GM makes it easier for a team to meet this obligation.)

ii) Assuming a 32-team draft, all 8 teams per division would play in the opening round (1st vs. 8th, 4th vs. 5th, etc).

iii) The playoffs would last exactly 18 days, as follows:

The first round will last five days (three days discussion, one day voting, one day results).
The second round will last four days (two days discussion, one day voting, one day results).
The third, fourth and fifth rounds will each last three days (two days, one night discussion, 24 hour voting, half day results).

The discussion period CAN BE extended IF AND ONLY IF under a revised, extended schedule - as might be discussed following the draft - the playoffs end date to be no later than December 15th.

The only thing that I don't get, is why we are shortening the discussion, then lengthening it again. (three, to two, to two and a night)

We should shorten the discussion throughout, as the teams have less and less to say, and they just end up using arguments that won their previous series.

What about 4, 4, 3, 3, 2?

Or, 4, 3, 3, 2, 2?

7. As a standard procedure, all if any rule changes to be implimented after the draft begins would need unanimous consent, subject to the nixing of it by any GM's veto power. To this point, any suggested rule revisions would be PM'd to GMs at least 48 hours prior to the implimentation of any rule changes.

Nothing will ever go through this way. We could go for an overwhelming majority, like 75%. Any rule change that 75% of us want, should be put through.

 

[Transplanted Caper]

1. Sign-up period to be September 1-14th, the 15th the absolute deadline. Every past ATD GM would receive a PM invite. The target number for recruiting efforts would be 32 teams (not 28). The draft clock would begin at noon on Friday, September 18th.

Sounds good.

2. Draft order and divisions entirely determined by random method (e.g., spits' hat draw if he's willing again) on September 16th, two days before the draft begins.

Agreed.

ii) Roster thread posts to be in order by division, that is, all the teams in one division will put their first post on the thread before any team in the next division will post there. (This coordination will make it easier to see all the teams developing in one's division together, and it certainly will make it easier to do regular season ranking evaluations for GMs.)

People wait awhile before posting their roster thread, add newbies to that issue and I see this not happening. The division rivalry thread covers this issue completely IMO.

3. NO TRADES except for SAME ROUND TRADES, that is, only the trading of picks within the same round/s (e.g. my 1st and 8th for your 1st and 8th).

Seems like a pointless rule that doesn't really get to the heart of the issue many have with how trading unfolds in this thing.

4. Pre-set, expected time window conditions:

18 hour clock for the first two rounds,
then 12 hour clock for rounds 3-8,
then 8 hour clock for rounds 9-14,
then 6 hour clock for rounds 15-20,
then 4 hour clock for rounds 21-24.

One hour time window deduction for each skipped pick with a minimum 4 hour clock guaranteed regardless of deductions.

Agreed. Ideally, even 12 for Round 1, 24 has been a huge hassle.

5. Regular season rankings MUST BE VOTED ON by at least one GM (if the team is co-GM'd) per team. The penalty if not done is a lowering in the standings because we would also be ranking our own teams in our own divisions (e.g., most teams will rank their own team 1st in their own division; if a team doesn't vote they loose out on a 1st place vote opportunity and hence their team's ranking will be lower than it could have been).

Sounds good. Need to ensure someone who's up to speed on all this is tabulating the votes.

6. PLAYOFF FORMAT TO BE A SET RESPONSIBILITY.

i) VOTING expected of every team, even after eliminated. In a 32-team draft, there will be 16 teams/8 series starting after the first round, and the 16 just eliminated teams are to vote on the eight series in round two, four series in the divisional finals, two series in the conference finals and the championship final. This is an obligation you take on when joining the all-time draft. (Choosing to have a co-GM makes it easier for a team to meet this obligation.)

ii) Assuming a 32-team draft, all 8 teams per division would play in the opening round (1st vs. 8th, 4th vs. 5th, etc).

iii) The playoffs would last exactly 18 days, as follows:

The first round will last five days (three days discussion, one day voting, one day results).
The second round will last four days (two days discussion, one day voting, one day results).
The third, fourth and fifth rounds will each last three days (two days, one night discussion, 24 hour voting, half day results).

The discussion period CAN BE extended IF AND ONLY IF under a revised, extended schedule - as might be discussed following the draft - the playoffs end date to be no later than December 15th.

Agreed 1000000000% on this. But we need to be vigilant and ensure it's enforced.

7. As a standard procedure, all if any rule changes to be implimented after the draft begins would need unanimous consent, subject to the nixing of it by any GM's veto power. To this point, any suggested rule revisions would be PM'd to GMs at least 48 hours prior to the implimentation of any rule changes.

Agreed, any rules posted after the draft should require unaninmous consent, not as much neccessary to vote on these other rules pre-draft.

 

[VanIslander]

who on earth would trade a 1st and 8th for a 1st and 8th? The point is, you give up some spots now, to get more spots later, not the same number of spots.

It woud essentially be a NO TRADE draft but the exception of SAME ROUNDS lets a GM move up a few spots now in exchange for moving down a few spots later. For example, trading down from the middle of the round to the end of the round with another team that has an early pick in the next round. That sort of MINOR trade.

I agree that trades need to be regulated in some way, but this is going too far.

I think you underappreciate the ANGER that some veteran GMs felt and expressed at the trading aspect last draft. In fact two respected veteran GMs have said they won't be a part of this draft if there are trades. It is time for a no trade all-time draft. Make a minor trade to move or down in the present round if you really really have to get a guy, the same round condition allows for that.

Trades are a fun x-factor in the draft.

I disagree. We almost lost some great GMs last draft because of some trades. The all-time draft is NOT essentially about trades, there being plenty of draft junkie trade mayhem available on the fantasy game board drafts.

It is time for a no trade draft, or close to it. If you still want to move up this round to get a guy you can't believe has dropped, then you can still do so.

None of your suggested trade restrictions prevent what happened last draft. Majority rule in such a situation almost resulted in a minority deciding to leave the drafts altogether. I heard that in PMs too, as well as a couple posted about it on the thread.

I think that 4 hours is much too harsh for someone who's never missed a pick all draft.

What? I think you misunderstand. Nobody would ever have less than 4 hours to make a pick even if had hours of penalties for missing picks in earlier rounds.

I also think that in round 24, 4 hours is much too generous for someone who has missed picks throughout - it wipes out the penalty that they earned.

No need for extra punishment. They already suffered from reduced clocks in earlier rounds.

The only thing that I don't get, is why we are shortening the discussion, then lengthening it again. (three, to two, to two and a night)

To clarify: three days (72 hours) to two days (48 hours) to two daytimes and one nighttime (about 32-36 hours). Specific times would be set when the time comes, and PMs sent with specifics.

Nothing will ever go through this way. We could go for an overwhelming majority, like 75%. Any rule change that 75% of us want, should be put through.

Changing the rules in the middle of a game should not happen unless everyone agrees. It's that simple.

 

[Transplanted Caper]

I should add, if it's a no-trade draft I'm fine with that. If there are to be trades, I think a bigger issue is timing than lopsided ones.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

The only objection you'll hear from me is, why must we be a slave to the six-month rotation? Why can't we space these out better? I know some of you feel this way too; you tell me in private messages, then when it's time to speak up, you don't!

Participation grinds to a halt over Christmas. And interest and participation is severly effected by summer. So, the idea is to ensure that ATDs avoid those two periods. in other words. If we were to hold off on ATD 12, we'd have to hold off until January, and that is just too long.

 

[seventieslord]

So if we have a draft that wanes through the Christmas season, that would be a bad thing? Everyone gets back to the grind by about January 4th, don't they? Then it's business as usual. If we spaced them out better and didn't start till November or December we'd still have just as good a draft; there would just be a little lull in the middle. What would be so bad about that?

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

So if we have a draft that wanes through the Christmas season, that would be a bad thing? Everyone gets back to the grind by about January 4th, don't they? Then it's business as usual. If we spaced them out better and didn't start till November or December we'd still have just as good a draft; there would just be a little lull in the middle. What would be so bad about that?

The bad part is it was a massive pain in the ass to admin the ATD over Christmas.

 

[seventieslord]

The bad part is it was a massive pain in the ass to admin the ATD over Christmas.

Then just make it really lax for about 10 days - no deadlines, pick if/when you can, trade freeze, that kind of thing.

Really, that's a bit of a pain but it's the lesser of two evils. We're completely buring the ATD candle at both ends all because of Christmas and Summer.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I'd be in favour of having more time between the ATDs. There are a few benefits:

- Retaining veteran GMs. Towards the end of the last ATD, several veterans indicated they might not come back for ATD12. By delaying the drafts we can reduce burnout & keep more of our GMs.

- Better voter participation. I think that voting/comments drop off during the playoffs partly because the drafts take up so many months of the year. If we can reduce burnout hopefully there will be better playoff discussions (i.e. more than just the two GMs discussing) and better voter turnout.

 

[vancityluongo]

(who on earth would trade a 1st and 8th for a 1st and 8th? The point is, you give up some spots now, to get more spots later, not the same number of spots.)

A question regarding this VanI.

Would it still be legal to trade my 1st, 2nd, 4th and 6th to you for your 1st, 2nd, 4th and 6th...however, I pick at the beginning of round 1, while you have the first pick in rounds 2, 4, and 6? Not a 1st and a 8th for a 1st and a 8th, but something so that you don't lose value for moving down?

 

[VanIslander]

A question regarding this VanI.

Would it still be legal to trade my 1st, 2nd, 4th and 6th to you for your 1st, 2nd, 4th and 6th...however, I pick at the beginning of round 1, while you have the first pick in rounds 2, 4, and 6? Not a 1st and a 8th for a 1st and a 8th, but something so that you don't lose value for moving down?

of course... THAT's the sort of trade that would happen... one moves up now, one moves up later... same round trading is conservative but allows for moving up in any round to get that guy who dropped farther than one thought he would, or move down when one's shortlist is deep and move up the next round or a couple of rounds later.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

It woud essentially be a NO TRADE draft but the exception of SAME ROUNDS lets a GM move up a few spots now in exchange for moving down a few spots later. For example, trading down from the middle of the round to the end of the round with another team that has an early pick in the next round. That sort of MINOR trade.

.

Yeah, or the sort of trade I did this time, which let both of us each have 2 sets of back to back picks.

 

[God Bless Canada]

I would actually like to see the draft at 28 teams. We had a 32-team draft. The talented was thinned out considerably. We had a couple GMs bail midway through the draft. And we had a couple GMs who were simply not knowledgeable enough to be ATD GMs. The 28-team draft has generally been the best number. We've had, I believe, one GM bail on the ATD in four 28-team ATDs.

And with 28 teams, it means that winning your division really means something, because you get that first round bye, and a second round match-up against a 4-7 team that probably just had a tough first round series. This is not a "the more, the merrier" proposition.

I wouldn't have a problem with wiping out trades altogether, although VanI's idea is a good one. I've never been a fan of trading out of rounds. I also like the idea in this MLD that once it's a GM's turn, he can't deal the picks. Trades must be consumated before a GM picks.

We need to have this thing done by Christmas. Period. And that probably means a 24-hour discussion period, and a 24-hour voting period. It's hard to keep guys interested once you get close to Christmas, because you have Christmas parties, get-togethers, Christmas Day, Boxing Day, New Year's, and the World Juniors. It's more difficult when guys are eliminated from the playoffs. The ATD becomes an "out of sight, out of mind" proposition. And if you have a break, guys lose even more interest.

The playoffs in ATD 9 and 11 dragged out way too long, and that's why vote totals were so low.

 

[vancityluongo]

of course... THAT's the sort of trade that would happen... one moves up now, one moves up later... same round trading is conservative but allows for moving up in any round to get that guy who dropped farther than one thought he would, or move down when one's shortlist is deep and move up the next round or a couple of rounds later.

Then that sounds great to me.

 

[seventieslord]

It woud essentially be a NO TRADE draft but the exception of SAME ROUNDS lets a GM move up a few spots now in exchange for moving down a few spots later. For example, trading down from the middle of the round to the end of the round with another team that has an early pick in the next round. That sort of MINOR trade.

Based on VCL's example I can see how this system can still have some positive effect. But it is far, far too conservative.

I think you underappreciate the ANGER that some veteran GMs felt and expressed at the trading aspect last draft. In fact two respected veteran GMs have said they won't be a part of this draft if there are trades. It is time for a no trade all-time draft. Make a minor trade to move or down in the present round if you really really have to get a guy, the same round condition allows for that.

I don't think anyone had anger at trades in general. It was probably at a couple of the lopsided trades that we did not veto. Those who voted to allow that one particular trade failed the rest of us in our efforts to have a fair draft.

Trades work fine, but we need to have some balls when it comes to saying "hold on. That trade ain't fair."

I disagree. We almost lost some great GMs last draft because of some trades. The all-time draft is NOT essentially about trades, there being plenty of draft junkie trade mayhem available on the fantasy game board drafts.

You disagree that it is a fun x-factor?

Watch the draft get real stagnant if you pick in the exact same spot every round for 24 rounds. It's nice to be able to have some control over when you select. The ability to trade up to get top-end talent by sacrificing depth, and vice versa, makes for a more interesting and diverse draft, as long as it is monitored responsibly.

What? I think you misunderstand. Nobody would ever have less than 4 hours to make a pick even if had hours of penalties for missing picks in earlier rounds.

No, I don't misunderstand. I'm saying in the ATD, even in rounds 20-24, if I've been a solid citizen all draft and never missed a pick, why should I, and everyone else like me, be on such a short leash?

No need for extra punishment. They already suffered from reduced clocks in earlier rounds.

You're talking about the scourge of the ATD - someone who has missed multiple deadlines by the final rounds. they absolutely should have a smaller time limit than the others, no matter what the baseline limit is. If that takes them to zero, that is their fault and they know it.

To clarify: three days (72 hours) to two days (48 hours) to two daytimes and one nighttime (about 32-36 hours). Specific times would be set when the time comes, and PMs sent with specifics.

That was clear to me. I'm just wondering what the logic is behind shortening, then lengthening the time limit. What is it about round 2 that deserves the shortest discussion period? That's all I'm saying.

4, 3, 3, 2, 2 makes a lot more sense.

I'd be in favour of having more time between the ATDs. There are a few benefits:

- Retaining veteran GMs. Towards the end of the last ATD, several veterans indicated they might not come back for ATD12. By delaying the drafts we can reduce burnout & keep more of our GMs.

- Better voter participation. I think that voting/comments drop off during the playoffs partly because the drafts take up so many months of the year. If we can reduce burnout hopefully there will be better playoff discussions (i.e. more than just the two GMs discussing) and better voter turnout.

everyone listen to HO.

I would actually like to see the draft at 28 teams. We had a 32-team draft. The talented was thinned out considerably.

That is a matter of perspective.

There's tons of talent that can take those extra 4th line, 6th D, and spare spots. Some 4th liners move up to the 2nd/3rd, a few backups become starters, and so on. It's not a big deal if you only get Gary Dornhoefer on your 4th line instead of Terry O'Reilly because the talent gets spread out further. Every team deals with the same issue.

We had a couple GMs bail midway through the draft. And we had a couple GMs who were simply not knowledgeable enough to be ATD GMs. The 28-team draft has generally been the best number. We've had, I believe, one GM bail on the ATD in four 28-team ATDs.

You read too much into this.

14% more teams means there's a 14% greater chance that someone will bail at some point.

We may as well cut the draft to 24 teams and make the chance of a team bailing even lower.

And with 28 teams, it means that winning your division really means something, because you get that first round bye, and a second round match-up against a 4-7 team that probably just had a tough first round series. This is not a "the more, the merrier" proposition.

I don't have to tell you what will happen to an 8th seed that faces Sturminator, Spitfire, or HO. So yes, finishing first means something no matter what.

It's hard to keep guys interested once you get close to Christmas,

Unless..... Christmas is just an inevitable break that comes somewhere in the middle of the draft, because we started the draft at our leisure and not some pre-determined start point that we feel irreversibly bound to. When Christmas coincides with the wrapping up of the playoffs, you're damn right it's tough to keep people interested, because it's a double whammy.

 

[VanIslander]

Here you go. The thread back.

If you guys want:

a 28-team instead of 32-team draft,
with trades instead of only few, minor trades
to start in November instead of finishing before the Christmas season

Then I ain't doing the work of running it. That's my point.

You guys decide what you want to do, are willing to live with.

 

[VanIslander]

pappyline likes the plan

that almost balances out all the opposition to it

 

[seventieslord]

Here you go. The thread back.

If you guys want:

a 28-team instead of 32-team draft,
with trades instead of only few, minor trades
to start in November instead of finishing before the Christmas season

Then I ain't doing the work of running it. That's my point.

You guys decide what you want to do, are willing to live with.

- I don't recall anyone but GBC trying to shoot down a 32-team draft, and I am backing you heavily on this.
- I fully agree with restraints on trades but would like to see us restrain the restraints, so to speak.
- I'm sure I'll end up being in the minority with stopping the silly 6-month rotation, but that won't stop me from being the squeaky wheel, every single time, until something changes. I sense more burnout and less interest every time. Maybe not this time, but the tides will turn.

If you want to be principled about your changes that is fine. You are free to run or not run the draft, and if you don't, someone else will inevitably step up. But it seems like your expectation was for everyone to agree with every one of these changes. But then, someone who agrees with most of it, has a couple tweaks, a couple suggestions? No way, I'm outta here!

You make it sound like your whole plan was just wrecked. I disagree in principle about trades. You make it sound like it's essential to eliminate them almost entirely. I say the volume of trades being made shows that the majority does not feel this way. That's my only major objection.

The time limits and when they change, and the discussion periods for playoffs, those are things I fully agree with in principle, and have suggested changes that would fundamentally make more sense. Sorry to blow things up like that!

have you ever been in customer service? Handle my objections. I'm not doing this to be difficult. I genuinely want to help the draft which is really about research and education more than anything else, two things that perhaps only I can match your passion for.

 

[VanIslander]

I disagree in principle about trades. You make it sound like it's essential to eliminate them almost entirely. I say the volume of trades being made shows that the majority does not feel this way. That's my only major objection.

We do fundamentally disagree here. I am only interested in running an essentially NO TRADES draft this time (the SAME ROUND condition is a bit of a compromise to cover that must-get situation during the draft). I am one of those who were upset at how things turned out. I was not the one who first suggested a 'no trade' draft this time, nor was I the one who threatened to not participate if we had trading this time, but I dang sure think both are mighty tempting ideas.

have you ever been in customer service? Handle my objections.

Yes, and I hated it. "Take it or leave it ma'am. If you don't like it, then go somewhere else." I quit that job.

I can see some of you are not buying what I'm selling.

 

[pappyline]

pappyline likes the plan

that almost balances out all the opposition to it

My feeling is that if you are willing to put in the effort to run this, then you are the guy to set the rules. If somebody doesn;t like your rules, then let them run it.