Pittsburgh's Poor Drafting History

[Beukeboom Fan]

I was looking at how Anaheim rebuilt after thier Cup since 07 and the same with Pens since 09 and the thing that really sticks out is the sheer amount of 1st and 2nd round picks.

Anaheim: 22 - 1st and 2nd round picks since thier Cup win in '07. 31 - 1st to 3rd round picks.

Pens: 12 - 1st and 2nd's in that same span. 19 - 1st to 3rd round picks.

At a certain point, you just have to be sellers and retool/restock. The Ducks did. The Pens haven't/didn't.

Pens should've been trading away the likes of Orpik, Niskanen, Martin regardless of where they were in the standings. They need all the 1st's and 2nd's they can get right now.

As some have said before me, the future isn't entirely bleak. They have Kap and Sundqvist who could pan out but they need to jump on guys like Panarin or Hayes/Sekac before him or even a Moses/undrafted CHL'ers that are mega point producers(ie. Tyler Johnson). Only way to really catch up on all those missed draft picks.

So let me get this right - the #1 team un the Eastern conference should have traded their pending UFA's to rebuild when they had prime Crosby and Malkin in an effort to stockpile picks that might contribute in 2019?

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

DAE Variance?

 

[WayneSid9987]

So let me get this right - the #1 team un the Eastern conference should have traded their pending UFA's to rebuild when they had prime Crosby and Malkin in an effort to stockpile picks that might contribute in 2019?

Yep. 2019 is a bit of a stretch though. 1st and 2nd rounders can contribute in 1, 2 to 3 years. It obviously should've started before that but we are talking about a time when Sid and Geno had wingers like Gibbons and Stempniak. I don't care how many points they had in the standings. They weren't built to challenge for a Cup. They should've been sellers.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

So let me get this right - the #1 team un the Eastern conference should have traded their pending UFA's to rebuild when they had prime Crosby and Malkin in an effort to stockpile picks that might contribute in 2019?

Orpik should have been traded the min the ink dried on Scud's contract.

 

[613Leafer]

Letang, Muzzin, and Goligoski were pretty incredible picks. Maatta was as well, he may have been a 1st rounder, but he was a late 1st who could play as a top 4 dman in the NHL as a teenager.

All defencemen, sure, but still very good value picks. The Leafs havent drafted a player close to Letangs calibre outside the 1st round since Kaberle in the 90s. The best two players the Oilers have drafted outside the 1st round in the past decade are Petry + Lander, which is much worse than Pittsburgh.

So sure, Pittsburgh has struggled at drafting forwards, but overall their drafting has been decent. Theyve also only drafted 55 times since 2006 through nine drafts, which is 8 fewer than default (9X7). With many teams drafting even more than default, and using 75+ picks since then, Pens are at a clear disadvantage before they even start drafting due to overall fewer picks than most teams.

 

[MovesLikeJagr68]

Quoted for truth.

It amazes me in hindsight that they picked Jordan Staal when they could've had Jonathan Toews, Nick Backstrom, Claude Giroux or Phil Kessel. Kessel would be the perfect winger for Sid or Geno.

Look at the Cup winning roster of 2009 and compare it to today's roster. Shero just destroyed that team.

In hindsight, yes.

Staal was a fine pick at the time, and he had a great rookie year. Can't blame anyone for making that pick. Also Kessel was scouted as a centre, as was the rest of the guys you listed there, so choice was pretty much made on what type of centre they wanted. And Kessel's stock rapidly dropped leading up to his draft year, no one would have picked him with the 2nd OA.

 

[Extra Texture]

Can anyone name the last forward the Penguins drafted who had a successful NHL career? You'd have to go back to 2006 when the Penguins selected Jordan Staal with their 2nd overall pick.

Can anyone name the last forward the Penguins drafted outside of the first round who has appeared in over 100 games? Go back over a decade to the 2004 draft, when they selected Tyler Kennedy 99th overall in the 4th round.

The Penguins' have been a disaster when it comes to drafting and developing talent, and that is one reason why their organization is depleted of any depth beyond Crosby and Malkin.

Only three forwards on their roster are from their own draft selections: Crosby, Malkin, and Beau Bennett. Bennett was the last forward the team selected who has appeared in any meaningful amount of games, and he was the 20th overall selection in 2010.

It really surprises me that this team has put zero emphasis on player development. They've wasted away picks on rentals who never worked out or just did a completely poor job in scouting talent. It's no secret why the team relies so heavily on two superstars, and it's no secret why Daniel Winnik of all people was playing left wing alongside Sidney Crosby to start the playoffs.

The team has zero depth not because of how much money they are allocating towards Crosby and Malkin, but they have no depth because they have been one of the worst, if not, the worst teams when it comes to drafting and developing talent.

Rather than blaming players for their lack of success, I'm going to pin the blame on the inept management group that has permitted the team to go by for so long without placing any emphasis on developing any meaningful players.

Maybe they'll find someone good again when they land another #1 or #2 overall selection...

This is the first accurate assessment of the Pens situation I've seen by an outside fan in a long time. The reality is way worse than a bad coach, bad culture, or blaming superstars for not doing enough.

It goes beyond what you just said, though. While wasting or trading most of those higher draft picks they turned around and spent alot of their FA money on blueliners too.

Erhoff
Scuderi (the second time)
Martin/Michalek (same offseason)
Gonchar before that (totally justified signing at the time)

Despite this being a position of organizational strength. The guys they already had or had established themselves in the team by around 2008 (Orpik, Letang, Goligoski.....later Niskanen, Lovejoy the first time, Eaton, Strait, etc) were not all world beaters in that group, but the big FA splashes have always been saved for blueliners.

It highlights even more the frustration with their asset management this year. They had Despres (along with Doumolin, Harrington and Pouliot waiting in the pipeline) and decided to trade a solid young player in their best position of strength for.....an older, slower, inferior D man. I cant grasp the decision making and obsession with holding onto veteran players at all. Not only are they bad at retaining picks and bad at assessing talent, when they manage to get a viable NHLer only 23 years old they waste him, for nothing.

Everytime I watched Filip Forsberg light it up, I died a little inside.

 

[The Greatest 101]

In Shero WE TRUST!

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Ray Shero is a ****ing idiot that inherited a team with the best core in the league and left it in ****ing shambles.

Is Rutherford lighting the shambles on fire?

 

[Ducks in a row]

Penguins draft history from 2007 after they became a good team to present from the top 3 rounds

From 2007 draft
20th overall F Angelo Esposito 0 NHL games (bust)
51st overall F Keven Veilleux no NHL games
78th overall D Robert Bortuzzo 126 NHL games
80th overall F Casey Pierro-Zabotel no NHL games

2008 no picks in the top 3 rounds

2009
30th overall D Simon Despres traded away this year
61st overall D Philip Samuelsson 9 NHL games
63rd overall F Ben Hanowski 16 NHL games

2010
20th overall F Beau Bennett 96 games
80th overall F Bryan Rust 14 NHL games

2011
23rd overall D Joe Morrow 15 NHL games
54th overall D Scott Harrington 10 NHL games

2012
8th overall D Derrick Pouliot 34 NHL games
22nd overall D Olli Maatta 98 NHL games

2013
44th overall G Tristan Jarry yet to play in NHL
77th overall F Jake Guentzel yet to play in NHL

2014
22nd overall F Kasperi Kapanen yet to play in NHL

8 forwards drafted
7 defenseman
1 goalie

Their draft picks past the 3rd round have only 1 good player defenseman Jake Muzzin who never played a game with the Penguins

Penguins draft history http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00007475.html



Penguins have done well with drafting defenseman but that is it. That is why their forward group outside of Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin leaves much to be desired.

 

[Crede777]

So let me get this right - the #1 team un the Eastern conference should have traded their pending UFA's to rebuild when they had prime Crosby and Malkin in an effort to stockpile picks that might contribute in 2019?

I think it may be more about hanging onto higher picks at the TDL. Yes, trading your 1st for a player at the TDL has worked a few times recently, but I think it is less effective than it used to be back when it was Detroit's prime MO.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

Orpik should have been traded the min the ink dried on Scud's contract.

Even if that is true, what would BO have been traded for with 1 year on his deal? 2nd & 4th round picks or the equivalent? If we're using hindsight, wouldn't it be better to say that Scuderi should not have been resigned?

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

Yep. 2019 is a bit of a stretch though. 1st and 2nd rounders can contribute in 1, 2 to 3 years. It obviously should've started before that but we are talking about a time when Sid and Geno had wingers like Gibbons and Stempniak. I don't care how many points they had in the standings. They weren't built to challenge for a Cup. They should've been sellers.

Not saying that Shero had done a good job, but a team competing for the Presidents trophy is built to win the Cup.

Even if you are an elite team, that translates to about a 10% chance to win the Cup. Obviously the Pens organization made some bad calls, but at the time the experts were pretty impressed with the deals and the team that Shero put together. Not saying that all the deals or signings were good, just that you can make good deals and srill come up short.

 

[Woodrow]

Penguins draft history from 2007 after they became a good team to present from the top 3 rounds

From 2007 draft
20th overall F Angelo Esposito 0 NHL games (bust)
51st overall F Keven Veilleux no NHL games
78th overall D Robert Bortuzzo 126 NHL games
80th overall F Casey Pierro-Zabotel no NHL games

2008 no picks in the top 3 rounds

2009
30th overall D Simon Despres traded away this year
61st overall D Philip Samuelsson 9 NHL games
63rd overall F Ben Hanowski 16 NHL games

2010
20th overall F Beau Bennett 96 games
80th overall F Bryan Rust 14 NHL games

2011
23rd overall D Joe Morrow 15 NHL games
54th overall D Scott Harrington 10 NHL games

2012
8th overall D Derrick Pouliot 34 NHL games
22nd overall D Olli Maatta 98 NHL games

2013
44th overall G Tristan Jarry yet to play in NHL
77th overall F Jake Guentzel yet to play in NHL

2014
22nd overall F Kasperi Kapanen yet to play in NHL

8 forwards drafted
7 defenseman
1 goalie

Their draft picks past the 3rd round have only 1 good player defenseman Jake Muzzin who never played a game with the Penguins

Penguins draft history http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00007475.html



Penguins have done well with drafting defenseman but that is it. That is why their forward group outside of Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin leaves much to be desired.

You are missing goalie Matt Murray drafted in round 3 (83rd overall) in 2012. He won the AHL top goalie award this year and should get some NHL games next year.

Anyways I don't think that the Pens drafted bad players, it is just that they had a stupid strategy of only drafting defensemen with their top picks.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

I think it may be more about hanging onto higher picks at the TDL. Yes, trading your 1st for a player at the TDL has worked a few times recently, but I think it is less effective than it used to be back when it was Detroit's prime MO.

That is obviously a very different discussion though.

The nature of the playoffs is that there will only be 1 winner, which means that you typically have about a 90+% chance of those trade deadline deals coming back and biting you in the butt. That being said, the payoff is HUGE. Kings dont win the Cup without Gaborik last year, and Lombardi cemented his legacy with that deal IMO.

I do agree that for poorndrafting organizations trading early.picks at the deadline is a slippery slope. Because there isn't talent in the pipeline, a trade is required to fill a hole, and thenpicks that are moved ensure that the pipeline stays dry. At some point you have to be able to change that cycle if you want to be successful over rhe long term.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Even if that is true, what would BO have been traded for with 1 year on his deal? 2nd & 4th round picks or the equivalent? If we're using hindsight, wouldn't it be better to say that Scuderi should not have been resigned?

Dmen go for 1st rounders at the TDL every year. There is no reason he couldn't have gotten a 1st. TBH I'd have been happy with a two 2nds like Boychuk.

 

[chrisp200]

The next 5 years the pens will only pick wingers in the first 3 rounds and everyone will complain about how bad our defense is.

 

[Bennett Brauer]

If we're looking at a long history then I agree.

HOWEVER, the past couple of drafts seem to have promise for the Penguins.

Notable names over the past 3 drafts

2012:

D Olli Maatta
D Derrick Pouliot
G Matt Murray
F Oskar Sundqvist
F Theodor Blueger

2013:

G Tristan Jarry
LW Jake Guentzel

2014:

RW Kasperi Kapanen

Other names that have promise for the Penguins are...(not prospects just youth)

RW Beau Bennett
D Brian Dumoulin
D Scott Harrington
LW Scott Wilson
RW Bryan Rust
C Jayson Megna (UDFA)
C Jean-Sebestain Dea (UDFA)
LW Conor Sheary (UDFA - AHL Contract)

The Pens have some decent young players. Also, even with Shero being a bad drafter early on (it seems like his 2012 and 2013 drafts have some promise), he made good trades to bring in forward talent. Goligoski for Neal + Niskanen which is now Hornqvist and Spaling. Staal for Sutter, Dumoulin and Pouliot.

 

[Reddawg]

Jordan Staal is an odd pick at #2 OA. Talent wise, he was always worse than Toews, even at the time of the draft. His size is overrated.

I think size, leadership and two-way play was why they picked him. They already rafted two high-end offensive players. But a winger would make the most sense.

Nor to mention his older brother had just had a 100 point season at 21 years of age on the way to bringing a Cup home to Carolina, and the scouting reports on Jordan all claimed he would be even better than his brother.

Obviously Eric's big season was a huge anomaly as he's never even approached those numbers again, but it was certainly a big factor going into that draft.

 

[MovesLikeJagr68]

A little off-topic, but here's a list of handpicked defencemen that Shero drafted*

*was either AGM or GM of the team, so no it wasn't all him, but still a cool list.

- Stanislav Neckar
- Bryan Berard
- Chris Phillips
- Karel Rachunek
- Karlis Skrastins
- Dan Hamhuis
- Ryan Suter
- Kevin Klein
- Shea Weber
- Ryan Parent
- Cody Franson
- Jake Muzzin
- Robert Bortuzzo
- Simon Despres
- Joe Morrow
- Scott Harrington
- Derrick Pouliot
- Olli Maatta

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Now compare that to the list of forwards, it's pretty jarring to see they can't even draft a role player.

 

[MovesLikeJagr68]

Now compare that to the list of forwards, it's pretty jarring to see they can't even draft a role player.

Definitely. Even if you go back to his Sens/Preds days there isn't a whole lot of success up front. Guy either learned this philosophy, or he had some decent pull in draft decisions.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

They dont have Hakan

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

In hindsight, yes.

Staal was a fine pick at the time, and he had a great rookie year. Can't blame anyone for making that pick. Also Kessel was scouted as a centre, as was the rest of the guys you listed there, so choice was pretty much made on what type of centre they wanted. And Kessel's stock rapidly dropped leading up to his draft year, no one would have picked him with the 2nd OA.

Kessel was a centre in junior ? Wow, last guy I could imagine playing centre. He has no idea on how to play defense.

Guys like Kessel, Stamkos and Ovechkin were born to be wingers.

Anyway, who was the best winger available in the draft ? Giroux ?

 

[613Leafer]

So let me get this right - the #1 team un the Eastern conference should have traded their pending UFA's to rebuild when they had prime Crosby and Malkin in an effort to stockpile picks that might contribute in 2019?

Absolutely. Do it at the draft BEFORE the season starts, and then address your short-term needs in free agency or some other way. It may mean a slight step back short-term, but long-term it pays off given that youre losing those guys anyways.

Thats what Chicago's done, and theyve won twice. They havent been shy to sell off Brouwer, Bolland, Byfgulien, Versteeg, Campbell, Ladd, etc. How many valuable pending UFAs have they lost for zero return? Niemi? Anyone else?