Pitkanen vs. Martin

[Deleted member 28548]

Who will have the better season between the two both offensively and all-around and why?

Joni Pitkanen (2003-2004)
71GP - 8G - 19A - 27Pts - +15 - 44PIMS - 5PPG - 12PPA

Paul Martin (2003-2004)
70GP - 6G - 18A - 24Pts - +12 - 4PIMS - 2PPG - 8PPA

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[Tap on the Ankle]

Pitkanen

 

[Vatican Roulette]

I'm going to go with Pitkanen. I think he has a better offensive cast around him. Besides, Malakhov and Rafalski will take a lot of PP time. Philly doesn't have that many PP guys.

 

[Victory Ali*]

This is bizarre.

Interestingly enough I was looking for info on both players earlier today because I was putting together a team for a hockey poll for a different website. In the pool (the sporting news one if anyone is interested) you can only take two defenseman and I wound up taking both Martin and Pitkanen in my picks.

This is how I look at it.

Paul Martin - Is called a Powerplay Quarterback and is just 24 years old according to TSN. With Stevens and Neidermayer likely gone, I think Marin will have to play a much bigger role and get a lot more ice time and time on the PP. I'm not sure on the Devils Depth chart but I don't think it would be a stretch to see Paul on the top pairing. I think he's going to a excellent sleeper.

Pitkanen - He's young, I think he's only 20 yet he managed 20 something points and a plus eight rating last season. He's going to be playing on an amazing team full of veterans who can mentor him and cover any mistakes he could potentially make. The only thing worries me about his value is that there are several big veteran defenseman on the team who may be put ahead of him on the depth chart. However, I hope that since he seems to have speed and maturity beyond his years that gets significant ice and PP time.

Personally, I would go with Paul Martin right now over Pitkanen. I think Pitkanen is a better player but I think Martin's role on the Devil's will be bigger thus making him more valuable.

And those are my thoughts.

 

[MAF]

Pitkanen - He's young, I think he's only 20 yet he managed 20 something points and a plus eight rating last season.

Pitkanen turns 22 in september...

 

[Liquidrage*]

Pitkanen turns 22 in september...

He was 20 was he last played in the NHL and scored 28 points though.

I say Pitkanen because I'm a Flyers fan.

But I think the case can be made.

Last season the two you could call a wash even though Pitkanen's 2½ years younger and was playing his first hockey in North America.

Since then, Martin's played a few games in the Swiss league.

Pitkanen played a full season in the AHL, and went though the playoffs and won a Calder cup. He was put in a defensive shut-down role in the AHL and still managed 41 points in 76 games and 7 in 21 in the playoffs.

That's probably a big edge for Pitkanen's progression right there.

The feeling/talk is Pitkanen will be Top 4 along with Johnsson, Hatcher and Rathje. And Pitkanen's already in town attending mini-camps and suposedly is in great shape and added more muscle to his already big frame. Pitkanen's a great skater and has great offensive skills, but he's also a big guy, well over 200 lbs and has a mean streak. 2 years ago he was a mainstain on the PP as a 20 year old, that will be even more so now.

Nor sure about Martin. He might get Top 4 minutes. But the Devils also did bring in a few Dmen, so he might be on the 3rd pairing. I just don't know, maybe some Devils fans have a feeling on it.

In the end, Pitkanen is clearly earning his place in the "best defensive prospect in the world" arguement. And I expect this year to be a major step up for him. But like any projection it's prone to the roll of the dice.

 

[jcorb58]

This is bizarre.

Interestingly enough I was looking for info on both players earlier today because I was putting together a team for a hockey poll for a different website. In the pool (the sporting news one if anyone is interested) you can only take two defenseman and I wound up taking both Martin and Pitkanen in my picks.

This is how I look at it.

Paul Martin - Is called a Powerplay Quarterback and is just 24 years old according to TSN. With Stevens and Neidermayer likely gone, I think Marin will have to play a much bigger role and get a lot more ice time and time on the PP. I'm not sure on the Devils Depth chart but I don't think it would be a stretch to see Paul on the top pairing. I think he's going to a excellent sleeper.

Pitkanen - He's young, I think he's only 20 yet he managed 20 something points and a plus eight rating last season. He's going to be playing on an amazing team full of veterans who can mentor him and cover any mistakes he could potentially make. The only thing worries me about his value is that there are several big veteran defenseman on the team who may be put ahead of him on the depth chart. However, I hope that since he seems to have speed and maturity beyond his years that gets significant ice and PP time.

Personally, I would go with Paul Martin right now over Pitkanen. I think Pitkanen is a better player but I think Martin's role on the Devil's will be bigger thus making him more valuable.

And those are my thoughts.

Really bad karma ... last night i traded both of these guys with Liles in my keeper pool.

Got back Hemsky...Ott... Ehrhoff...Kronwall and 1st pick 2006 draft (probubly 2-3 pick overall)

 

[Clancy]

Pitkanen, no question about it.

 

[SoundsGood]

Long term is Pitkanen but for next year I would take a chance on Martin getting more points.

 

[Victory Ali*]

According to sportsline's depth charts

Pitkanen is on the top pairing.
Martin is on the bottom pairing.

Martin is ranked 46th best defenseman in the NHL.
Pitkanen is ranked 55th best defenseman in the NHL.

Just reporting my findings.

 

[MAF]

He was 20 was he last played in the NHL and scored 28 points though.

Yes, true.

But then you have to admit, that P-Mart was 22 for most of the last NHL season he played. He had turned 23 towards the end of the season...

 

[Classic Devil]

Last season Martin was on the top pairing with Niedermayer for much of the season. He also outplayed Rafalski (no joke) and took PP time away from Raffi as the season went on. He's probably not going to be on the "top pairing" but then I'm not sure if New Jersey is going to have a "top pairing" per se.

I like Pitkanen a I think he has more pure offensive ability than Martin, but Paul plays a very smart game. He's the most poised defenseman on the Devils, on par with Niedermayer and better in terms of making the right play than Rafalski.

I would probably take Pitkanen between the two in a keeper league where points mean more. But that's no knock on Martin because this guy is a star in the making.

Points: Pitkanen
All-Around: Martin

 

[Gags1288]

Last season Martin was on the top pairing with Niedermayer for much of the season. He also outplayed Rafalski (no joke) and took PP time away from Raffi as the season went on. He's probably not going to be on the "top pairing" but then I'm not sure if New Jersey is going to have a "top pairing" per se.

I like Pitkanen a I think he has more pure offensive ability than Martin, but Paul plays a very smart game. He's the most poised defenseman on the Devils, on par with Niedermayer and better in terms of making the right play than Rafalski.

I would probably take Pitkanen between the two in a keeper league where points mean more. But that's no knock on Martin because this guy is a star in the making.

Points: Pitkanen
All-Around: Martin

Pitkanen's all around play greatly improved in the AHL. He was the teams shut down defenseman and has become an exceptional positional defenseman. He also played some physical hockey and really is starting to show that mean streak. In addition, it's been reported that he has put on some more muscle, which will only help.

Pitkanen will definately be on the #1 PP unit (with Johnsson) and should certainly see top 4 minutes. He'll likely improve on his 28 points in 71 games that he put up last year, I think 40 is pretty realistic (10 G, 30 assists).

For this season, Martin might be the slightly better player defensively, but I'd still give Pitkanen the slight edge all around. In the future, it won't be close. Martin will be a very solid top 4 guy, Pitkanen will be a perennial norris candidate. He's taking major steps in that direction and I see no reason why he won't fulfill his potential. I'm damn happy to have him in Philly.

 

[Classic Devil]

Pitkanen's all around play greatly improved in the AHL. He was the teams shut down defenseman and has become an exceptional positional defenseman. He also played some physical hockey and really is starting to show that mean streak. In addition, it's been reported that he has put on some more muscle, which will only help.

Pitkanen will definately be on the #1 PP unit (with Johnsson) and should certainly see top 4 minutes. He'll likely improve on his 28 points in 71 games that he put up last year, I think 40 is pretty realistic (10 G, 30 assists).

For this season, Martin might be the slightly better player defensively, but I'd still give Pitkanen the slight edge all around. In the future, it won't be close. Martin will be a very solid top 4 guy, Pitkanen will be a perennial norris candidate. He's taking major steps in that direction and I see no reason why he won't fulfill his potential. I'm damn happy to have him in Philly.

Well, I didn't see Pitkanen play in the AHL so I don't have much to say in regards to that. And he may very well end up a perennial Norris candidate. But Martin is going to be much more than just another top-4 defenseman... I mean, just a few weeks ago Robinson was quoted saying that Martin could "develop into another Niedermayer."

Now, I don't see Nieds in Martin... I see Brian Leetch and Gary Suter. Will he ever be that good? Probably not. But if Pitkanen has it in him to be a perennial Norris candidate, then Martin has it in him to be the next great American defenseman.

 

[Gags1288]

Well, I didn't see Pitkanen play in the AHL so I don't have much to say in regards to that. And he may very well end up a perennial Norris candidate. But Martin is going to be much more than just another top-4 defenseman... I mean, just a few weeks ago Robinson was quoted saying that Martin could "develop into another Niedermayer."

Now, I don't see Nieds in Martin... I see Brian Leetch and Gary Suter. Will he ever be that good? Probably not. But if Pitkanen has it in him to be a perennial Norris candidate, then Martin has it in him to be the next great American defenseman.

Pitkanen is 2 and a half years younger of prime development time. That fact that they're even comparable at this time says a lot. Martin's potential is not even close to that of Pitkanen's. Joni is a superb skater, very solid passer, very good positional defenseman, and has starter to show his mean streak that everyone talked about when he was drafted (funny thing is, he was compared to Gary Suter with a mean streak) he has it all. That's nice that the guys coach said his upside was very high. Scotty Bowman said Pitkanen is far ahead of where Lidstrom was at the same age and said he invisions him winning 3 or 4 norris trophies. I like Martin a lot, but I don't see him being an elite top pairing guy. I think he will be a very solid all around defenseman. That's not a knock against Martin, the Devils made yet another very good pick. But Joni Pitkanen's upside is limitless.

 

[Lou is God]

I like Martin a lot, but I don't see him being an elite top pairing guy.

Oh yeah, I do, easily.

And while Martin is a couple years older than Pitkanen and there is no sure way to know who in 5-8 years will be the better defenseman, one thing that is not debateable is that Martin is progressing faster than Pitkanen based off of the last NHL season and the thing is nobody has a real good idea on how much upside he has, but if he keeps progressing at this rate he will be a for sure elite top pairing defenseman with not just the Devils but possibly Team USA.

I'm starting to see that Martin will be one of those type of players who for one reason or another will not get his proper due, but I think that's because he's just never going to be a very flashy player.

 

[Gags1288]

Oh yeah, I do, easily.

And while Martin is a couple years older than Pitkanen and there is no sure way to know who in 5-8 years will be the better defenseman, one thing that is not debateable is that Martin is progressing faster than Pitkanen based off of the last NHL season and the thing is nobody has a real good idea on how much upside he has, but if he keeps progressing at this rate he will be a for sure elite top pairing defenseman with not just the Devils but possibly Team USA.

I'm starting to see that Martin will be one of those type of players who for one reason or another will not get his proper due, but I think that's because he's just never going to be a very flashy player.

Martin at 23 had 3 fewer points in 1 fewer game then Pitkanen at 20 and yet we know Martin is progessing faster? I really have to question that logic. In addition, Pitkanen was the only change to a PP that went from bottom ten in the league to top 3. Sure Joni's complete game wasn't there yet, but how many 20 year old defenseman play a complete game.

Pitkanen at 20 and Martin at 20, the players weren't even close to being comparable. Martin's under appreciated and will never get his due for some reason? Maybe he hasn't earned it yet. Martin wasn't even one of the top 3 or 4 rookie defenseman in the NHL last season (I'd take Hamhuis, Liles, Pitkanen, and Zidlicky is you consider him a rookie over Martin just off the top of my head), imo of course.

Ignore the Bowman comments all you want, the guy knows a lot about the game and about where Lidstrom was at the same age. I'm going to go ahead and place more weight in his comments then Robinson praising one of the kids on his own team.

Say all you want about Martin's upside. He's going to be a very solid defenseman. After having seen Pitkanen play at the age of 20 and his development this year in the AHL, it's hard to argue that Pitkanen's not going to be a norris caliber defenseman. He has all the tools and is improving with every game. Combine Pitkanen's offensive instincts, his skating, his positional play, and his newly found mean streak, and there is no limit to how good he can be. Once he puts it all together, look out, he's going to be a great one.

 

[Epsilon]

Martin is a very good young defenseman. Pitkanen, however, is the best defensive prospect I've seen since Chris Pronger. He has all the tools to be one of the elite defensemen of his era.

 

[Deleted member 28548]

Martin at 23 had 3 fewer points in 1 fewer game then Pitkanen at 20 and yet we know Martin is progessing faster? I really have to question that logic. In addition, Pitkanen was the only change to a PP that went from bottom ten in the league to top 3. Sure Joni's complete game wasn't there yet, but how many 20 year old defenseman play a complete game.

In fairness here, Joni Pitkanen was benched by Ken Hitchcock quite a good bit in his rookie season for making poor defensive plays with the Flyers whereas the same can't be said about Paul Martin. I don't remember Pat Burns benching Paul Martin once in all seriousness and it should be properly noted that both coaches approach young promising rookies the same way.

Pitkanen at 20 and Martin at 20, the players weren't even close to being comparable. Martin's under appreciated and will never get his due for some reason? Maybe he hasn't earned it yet. Martin wasn't even one of the top 3 or 4 rookie defenseman in the NHL last season (I'd take Hamhuis, Liles, Pitkanen, and Zidlicky is you consider him a rookie over Martin just off the top of my head), imo of course.

Its true that Paul Martin went several stretches last season where he was making fewer defensive mistakes then Rafalski was. Both players made a terrific impact with Team USA and Ron Wilson to the point where Robert Esche and/or Jeremy Roenick were commenting that as much as they disliked the Devils, they would both love to be playing full-time in front of defenders like them. I think Paul Martin just like Joni Pitkanen has all the tools be a top two defender in time.

 

[Liquidrage*]

In fairness here, Joni Pitkanen was benched by Ken Hitchcock quite a good bit in his rookie season for making poor defensive plays with the Flyers whereas the same can't be said about Paul Martin. I don't remember Pat Burns benching Paul Martin once in all seriousness and it should be properly noted that both coaches approach young promising rookies the same way.

In fairness here, if you look at the playoff series against the Flyers, Martin sucked. Don't look at the 1g and 1a. He was abused and abused over and over by the Flyers forwards and couldn't do a damn thing about it.

You really think Hitch would have played him?

Just because one team didn't play guy X doesn't mean guy Y from another team was any better.


And really, I don't care if Devils fans come out and make up that Martin looked good against the Flyers just to stick up for *their* guy. The dude looked lost.

It's OK, it's not a big knock on him. First year in the NHL, first playoffs. But no, your point really wasn't valid.

 

[Gags1288]

In fairness here, Joni Pitkanen was benched by Ken Hitchcock quite a good bit in his rookie season for making poor defensive plays with the Flyers whereas the same can't be said about Paul Martin. I don't remember Pat Burns benching Paul Martin once in all seriousness and it should be properly noted that both coaches approach young promising rookies the same way.


Its true that Paul Martin went several stretches last season where he was making fewer defensive mistakes then Rafalski was. Both players made a terrific impact with Team USA and Ron Wilson both to the point where Robert Esche and/or Jeremy Roenick both commented that as much as they disliked the Devils, they would both love to be playing full-time in front of defenders like them.

And again Pitkanen's nearly 3 years younger and a different player. There's no doubt that Martin's complete game was more defined because of his experience advantage. That being said, Hitchcock benched Pitkanen not only for making bad decisions, but because he could afford to. The flyers had 6 veteran defenseman last season (late, when Joni was benched) with Markov, Malakhov, Desjardins, Johnsson, Ragnarsson, and Timander. Joni also played stellar defense in the AHL, especially in the AHL playoffs where he was a complete rock. Many observers believed Pitkanen was the best player in the finals despite what Carter and Nittymaki accomplished. If Martin was playing poorly, did they have any veteran d-men they could replace him with (especially with the injury to Stevens)? This is an honest question because I really don't know the answer.

If we're talking about this year, they're comparable, but I'd still take Pitkanen (but I have no problem entertaining that debate). Joni really took big strides last season in the AHL. This year, Pitkanen will be the better offensive player, Martin will probably make fewer mistakes (though again, Pitkanen's positional play has improved greatly). The biggest thing with Joni is deciding when to pinch and when not to, and that is improving with time.

There isn't a defenseman in the world below the age of 25 who I would even entertain trade offers for Pitkanen, his upside and ability are that high. Again, this is not a knock against Martin. The Devils have a very solid player in Paul, but again when you can even compare a guy at 20 to a guy at 23 (especially defenseman, who take longer to develope) that says a lot, imo.

 

[Lou is God]

Martin at 23 had 3 fewer points in 1 fewer game then Pitkanen at 20 and yet we know Martin is progessing faster?

In the second half of the season Martin was just outstanding and picked up his game, he really was, outside Niedermeyer he was the second best defenseman on the team. Then on top of that in the '04 World Cup he was argueably the best defenseman on Team USA despite being a late addition.

As for you saying maybe he hasn't earned repect yet, I dunno if you recall the praise he recieved during and after the WC from players, opponents and commentators, but if you did it would be clear he has already recieved it, so I have no idea how you can say something like that.

And on top of it all you need to go show me were I ever said Martin was going to be better than Pitkanen, because I haven't and if you stuck a gun to my head I would concede it would be Pitkanen but it's far from a given though.

I said this:

"one thing that is not debateable is that Martin is progressing faster than Pitkanen based off of the last NHL season "

And I stand by that.

 

[Classic Devil]

In fairness here, if you look at the playoff series against the Flyers, Martin sucked. Don't look at the 1g and 1a. He was abused and abused over and over by the Flyers forwards and couldn't do a damn thing about it.

You really think Hitch would have played him?

Just because one team didn't play guy X doesn't mean guy Y from another team was any better.


And really, I don't care if Devils fans come out and make up that Martin looked good against the Flyers just to stick up for *their* guy. The dude looked lost.

It's OK, it's not a big knock on him. First year in the NHL, first playoffs. But no, your point really wasn't valid.

It's not fair to say he looked lost. He looked outmatched... and he was. The Devils were in every sense of the word outmatched in that playoff series. We were beaten by the stronger and much more physical team, along with Brodeur getting out goalied by Esche. We know this... any Devils fan who's not willing to admit it is being stubborn.

And I don't think there's anyone from the Devils side of the bench here who's not willing to admit Pitkanen has Norris-potential, even Lidstrom potential. He has it. The thing is, Martin has the potential to be just as good a defenseman - slightly different style, not as many points (Pitkanen is clearly the more gifted offensive player) - but an extremely good #1 defenseman. Martin has that potential... Wilson saw it when he was on team USA (that's why Martin ended up on Team USA's #1 pairing with Rafalski, with no even-ice goals against them... and I distinctly remember the commentators saying on at least one goal that if "Martin and Rafalski had been on the ice they wouldn't have scored there"), Burns saw it and it's why he spent so much time with Niedermayer, and Larry Robinson has seen it.

We don't doubt Pitkanen... at least I don't. I have some questions about his game but it's stuff that he can easily learn (and it sounds like he might've in the AHL). Martin has Suter/Leetch potential too, don't overlook it because he's not as flashy.

 

[Lou is God]

It's not fair to say he looked lost. He looked outmatched... and he was. The Devils were in every sense of the word outmatched in that playoff series. We were beaten by the stronger and much more physical team, along with Brodeur getting out goalied by Esche. We know this... any Devils fan who's not willing to admit it is being stubborn.

I was going to say the same exact thing, thanks for saving me the trouble.

 

[Deleted member 28548]

If Martin was playing poorly, did they have any veteran d-men they could replace him with (especially with the injury to Stevens)? This is an honest question because I really don't know the answer.

We had stay-at-home veterans in Albelin and Brown in reserves at the time.