Confirmed Trade: [PIT/FLA] Colton Sceviour and Mike Matheson for Patric Hornqvist

[violaswallet]

That's the problem, doesn't look like anyone will offer it.

It's not as simple as youre making it

Not exactly this. Usually, insurance can be offered any price, but it can be prohibitively expense. Think the following pricing model: suppose that an insurer just wants to break event in expectation and has to (full simplicity) pay full salary of Hornqvist when injured. How much would it be? Let's say that last season's playing rate, about 75%, is reasonable. With this in mind, the price of the insurance would be 3.975M. (Super simplistic: insurance doesn't pay full amount probably, but there is some risk compensation to the insurer to make it worth it)

Given Hornqvist's age and recent age history, the expecting playing rate won't be high enough to make insurance super valuable...this would add an additional cash payment that binds more if Hornqvist isn't injured...

 

[majormajor]

Pretty sure insurance is determined before the signing is made, which is why the Clarkson/Horton deal happened as Horton was not insured.

Did that change recently? Last I checked, there is a single insurer that the league has an agreement with and it provides insurance to 5 contracts per team. And not always the players that teams most want to insure, the company often says no to insuring older players. The insurance contract is on multi-year terms not necessarily tied to the beginning of a player's contract. Most players these days are not insured. The problem with Hornqvist wouldn't be that he wasn't insured before, it would be that the insurer said no when Zito called them to ask if they'd cover the next few years of his deal.

 

[violaswallet]

Did that change recently? Last I checked, there is a single insurer that the league contracts with and it provides insurance to 5 contracts per team. And not always the players that teams most want to insure, the company often says no to insuring older players. The insurance contract is on multi-year terms not necessarily tied to the beginning of a player's contract. Most players these days are not insured.

Link? I think CBA mentioned multiple companies, i.e. teams can insure beyond the players in the old pool? I know the products are available...

 

[Jerkbait]

Eh..
I really don't think thats true. Atleast its close...
Matheson was bar none the worst D of the playoffs IMO...
I had money on the Panthers so I followed it pretty closely and it was astonishing how much worse they were with him on the ice vs him being benched...

You are incredibly incorrect!!! He was NOT the worst D.. that belonged to Shultz

 

[majormajor]

Link? I think CBA mentioned multiple companies, i.e. teams can insure beyond the players in the old pool? I know the products are available...

I googled around and can't find anything.

I seem to remember something about secondary insurers no longer being willing to offer anymore. They're allowed but won't do it.

 

[violaswallet]

I googled around and can't find anything.

I seem to remember something about secondary insurers no longer being willing to offer anymore. They're allowed but won't do it.

No worries. I think there is a secondary market, but it's a lot more expensive due to adverse selection. The premium design with the group insurance is clever: pool across many players as opposed to the one player with problems and give the insurer to right to block new insurance on injured players.

 

[David71]

whats the holdup?

 

[Honour Over Glory]

whats the holdup?

Horny kept ripping the Panthers tshirt they sent him for the zoom presser.

 

[Mick Jagr]

whats the holdup?

The trade made Teddy Blueger cry so they are trying to console him.

 

[FireGorton]

Trying to get younger I guess.

I don't understand this from Florida's perspective. Are they trying to make an actual run? How close do they think they are?

Florida dumping a overpaid 3rd pair Dman is the idea with them having a forward they could move later on

 

[majormajor]

I'd hope for Florida's sake that they're moving on to a different deal. Keeping Matheson is bleak. It's not that I think he's completely irrevocable, I think in the right system he might be salvageable. But he's a problem in Florida and they need to move on in a hurry. Bob can't have that utter chaos in front of him again.

That or Matheson should just be a power forward. He was good there to start his tryout, I'm not sure why they gave up on that.

 

[sinDer]

Florida dumping a overpaid 3rd pair Dman is the idea with them having a forward they could move later on

I wish Matheson was as good as a 3rd pair D...

 

[Crosscrease14]

So Matheson is 26, 6 years left at 4.875 and we're not sure if he's a forward or D. That's umm.. not good

 

[DFC]

Florida dumping a overpaid 3rd pair Dman is the idea with them having a forward they could move later on

Right, but, it's been a long time since we've seen Hornqvist put up even 50 points. How much does he make? 5ish? Is he really going to be all that easy to move, coming up on 34?

 

[Laus723]

Right, but, it's been a long time since we've seen Hornqvist put up even 50 points. How much does he make? 5ish? Is he really going to be all that easy to move, coming up on 34?

but he always brings a blue collar mentality that the Panthers lack and he’ll stand in front of the net and take the abuse. Matheson is a disaster, but he has great wheels. Change of scenery may do him well, but most of us will be very happy to be rid of him and his contract.

 

[DFC]

but he always brings a blue collar mentality that the Panthers lack and he’ll stand in front of the net and take the abuse. Matheson is a disaster, but he has great wheels. Change of scenery may do him well, but most of us will be very happy to be rid of him and his contract.

I get that, but I guess the disconnect for me is it really felt like Florida had to go back to the drawing board after seeing the way NYI dismantled them. Tying up money in a player 34 year-old winger who's best days seem well behind him is an odd move for a team in that position.

 

[Headshot77]

its a terrible plan lol. taking on a bottom pair dman signed for SIX more years at nearly 5 mil to save 500k?

The worst part is the contract is backloaded. Matheson will earn 6.5 million in real dollars and have a NTC pretty soon. Atrocious.

 

[Laus723]

I get that, but I guess the disconnect for me is it really felt like Florida had to go back to the drawing board after seeing the way NYI dismantled them. Tying up money in a player 34 year-old winger who's best days seem well behind him is an odd move for a team in that position.

Well, i would venture to Guess that there’s several more moves to come, and removing the backloaded contract of a player who’s been awful for us is a plus. Add to it a guy who’ll stand in front of the net and take the abuse, plus whatever else is coming along, I’ll gladly take it. I’m not really sure why you’re thinking Florida is getting a bad deal here on any level. Matheson is a train wreck and was on the ice for every goal (except one I think) when he was dressed. He’s a disaster, moving him for a blue collar guy with multiple Cups and the worm mentality that this team lacks (even at a decline) is an easy win for the Panthers.

I personally would have been happy with Lucic for him just to get him off the back end.

 

[crackdown44]

Is this the first time we’ve seen one of these long term/relatively low cap hit contracts on a young d-man fail? Obviously Josi is the prime example of best case scenario. Girard looks like it will be a great deal in Colorado, Andersson in Calgary as well

Can’t think of any other times when giving a young defenseman this kind of term to save on cap hit has gone this poorly

 

[TheImpatientPanther]

Is this the first time we’ve seen one of these long term/relatively low cap hit contracts on a young d-man fail? Obviously Josi is the prime example of best case scenario. Girard looks like it will be a great deal in Colorado, Andersson in Calgary as well

Can’t think of any other times when giving a young defenseman this kind of term to save on cap hit has gone this poorly

Nikita Zaitsev?
David 30 goal guy Clarkson?
Jason Blake?

TOR loves giving out free money

 

[Mogo]

I get that, but I guess the disconnect for me is it really felt like Florida had to go back to the drawing board after seeing the way NYI dismantled them. Tying up money in a player 34 year-old winger who's best days seem well behind him is an odd move for a team in that position.

They just want to get rid of Matheson and cant find takers.

 

[Merc29]

This is.... actually kind of a smart chess play Rutherford is doing here. Quality there is not 1 for 1, maybe the full deal isn't released. but if it is, here are a few of my thoughts.

-Trying to get younger: Matheson will be younger at the end of his deal than Hornqvist is currently now. Hornqvist age has been really showing the past few seasons with extended injuries and will be 36 in the final year of his contract. Not sure having a 36 year old who's body is completely destroyed making 5.3million. I love Horny to death and thankful for everything he has done for this team, but he's at the point where I'd rather play against him 3 times a year vs. watching him play 50-60 games a year.

-"Saving" cap space: 425k in cap space is being saved in this deal for the next 3 years. Granted, not a world of difference, the Pens are rumored to not be a cap team next year and I'm guessing, especially with giving Bjustad away for nothing other than just saving 2 million, this is the main aim for the deal.

-Free Agency players: On contradiction to my last point, The Pens do want to clear up as much cap space as possible to be players in Free Agency as possible. With a stagnant cap, chances are for the middle tier free agents, price will stay the same. Any $1 helps.

-Changing it up: Listen, the definition of "Crazy" is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Something like this was bound to happen while the Pens are trying to blow up the team. I'm sure GMJR is just shopping Horny around and found someone who would take him. If Matheson is the best we could do, so be it. It helps in the Previous three areas I mentioned.

Lastly, and a point most people are really looking over,

-Expansion Draft: Hornqvist carries a NTC, which means he would have to be protected in the upcoming expansion draft. By moving him now, we will have the ability to protect someone else without being forced to protect a 34/35 year old, or paying Seattle to take someone else.

 

[The Old Master]

whats the holdup?

patty's on a camping trip.......will be back in a month

 

[JoemAvs]

This is.... actually kind of a smart chess play Rutherford is doing here. Quality there is not 1 for 1, maybe the full deal isn't released. but if it is, here are a few of my thoughts.

-Trying to get younger: Matheson will be younger at the end of his deal than Hornqvist is currently now. Hornqvist age has been really showing the past few seasons with extended injuries and will be 36 in the final year of his contract. Not sure having a 36 year old who's body is completely destroyed making 5.3million. I love Horny to death and thankful for everything he has done for this team, but he's at the point where I'd rather play against him 3 times a year vs. watching him play 50-60 games a year.

-"Saving" cap space: 425k in cap space is being saved in this deal for the next 3 years. Granted, not a world of difference, the Pens are rumored to not be a cap team next year and I'm guessing, especially with giving Bjustad away for nothing other than just saving 2 million, this is the main aim for the deal.

-Free Agency players: On contradiction to my last point, The Pens do want to clear up as much cap space as possible to be players in Free Agency as possible. With a stagnant cap, chances are for the middle tier free agents, price will stay the same. Any $1 helps.

-Changing it up: Listen, the definition of "Crazy" is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Something like this was bound to happen while the Pens are trying to blow up the team. I'm sure GMJR is just shopping Horny around and found someone who would take him. If Matheson is the best we could do, so be it. It helps in the Previous three areas I mentioned.

Lastly, and a point most people are really looking over,

-Expansion Draft: Hornqvist carries a NTC, which means he would have to be protected in the upcoming expansion draft. By moving him now, we will have the ability to protect someone else without being forced to protect a 34/35 year old, or paying Seattle to take someone else.

Oh boy are you wrong on almost everything you wrote....
First of all Hornqvist has a NTC not a NMC so he does not have to be protected in the expansion draft...
I even actually could see Seattle take him...

Also Matheson has been horrifyingly bad. Pens fans keep saying that he can't be worse than Schultz or JJ but I disagree. I think he was worse atleast in the play-ins and not much better over the course of the regular season.
Imagine a younger Schultz performing like he does right now locked up for 6 more years at almost 5M. Thats what Matheson is. Only that Schultz probably still is better offensively atleast.

Odds are Hornqvist even if he slows down by quite a bit will be a more useful player during these 3 years than Matheson will be over the next 6 years..
I get why JR is trying to trade Hornqvist and that he probably has a hard time finding any takers for him due to his age and contract.
But that does not mean you should turn around and trade him for a worse player/contract combination than Milan Lucic...

 

[TheImpatientPanther]

Oh boy are you wrong on almost everything you wrote....
First of all Hornqvist has a NTC not a NMC so he does not have to be protected in the expansion draft...
I even actually could see Seattle take him...

Also Matheson has been horrifyingly bad. Pens fans keep saying that he can't be worse than Schultz or JJ but I disagree. I think he was worse atleast in the play-ins and not much better over the course of the regular season.
Imagine a younger Schultz performing like he does right now locked up for 6 more years at almost 5M. Thats what Matheson is. Only that Schultz probably still is better offensively atleast.

Odds are Hornqvist even if he slows down by quite a bit will be a more useful player during these 3 years than Matheson will be over the next 6 years..
I get why JR is trying to trade Hornqvist and that he probably has a hard time finding any takers for him due to his age and contract.
But that does not mean you should turn around and trade him for a worse player/contract combination than Milan Lucic...

JJ's charts say otherwise. He may be the worst defenseman in the league or definitely bottom 5-10 when factoring in cap hits.
Matheson is below average defensively but still puts up good scoring and points on even strength.