Phoenix XXII: It's Now or Never

[GSC2k2*]

If the parking rights were conveyed to Ellman and subsequently to Moyes, then why is this language in the agreements:

7.7 City Parking Fee Account. The Arena Manager shall, prior to the Operations Start Date, establish and maintain (for the benefit of the City) one or more trust accounts (requiring the signature of only the City for withdrawals) at a federally-insured institution(s) having offices in the State of Arizona for the deposit and disbursement of City Parking Fees (the "City Parking Fee Account"), and shall make deposits into the City Parking Fee Account as required by Section 8.1. Interest earned on amounts held in the City Parking Fee Account shall not be Operating Revenues and shall be the property of the City. The City may make withdrawals from the City Parking Fee Account at any time and from time to time in the City's sole discretion.

That sure sounds like the city was receiving money for the parking. So how can the city be buying something they are already receiving?





It can be called Ring of Fire after Johnny Cash.

Are you referring to language in the first AMULA, or the Hulsizer lease, or both?

 

[RR]

Are you referring to language in the first AMULA, or the Hulsizer lease, or both?

It's the Moyes AMULA, and the account he's referring to is for the ticket-surcharge proceeds the Team was to deposit into the City account.

I think he missed the part referencing 8.1 in clause 7.7, which refers specifically to the Team controlling the rights to charge for parking (8.1.3).

 

[Killion]

Question: Why did Jerry Moyes even purchase the Coyotes in the first place?

According to Moyes' himself, "it just kind of happened". He began by lending Ellman money, then more, then a whole lot more & before he knew it, he owned the team. Very strange man.

 

[Snarky Coyote]

That sounds encouraging. What's the pitch to get a 2-yr vs 1-yr commitment, if you know?

Rep said 2 year plan has a price lock and full rr 19 payment option, with 2 year you get sth price on 1st year playoff tickets - otherwise just 1st round. Should recieve paperwork friday, will post details then

 

[roccerfeller]

Since its business as usual for the Coyotes organization, this 2 Yr STH deal seems really interesting.

Any Yotes fans have thoughts on how this might help the STH base or how it might impact the financial side of things vs a traditional STH plan?

Wonder if this is any of MH's marketing spunk

 

[TheLegend]

According to Moyes' himself, "it just kind of happened". He began by lending Ellman money, then more, then a whole lot more & before he knew it, he owned the team. Very strange man.

And that's about as descriptive an explaination as it deserves.

 

[TheLegend]

It starts... A long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long long (Squared) time ago.....

Somehow.... I suddenly got this vision of a Star Wars styled intro titled "Parking Wars: Episode XXII --- A New Lease"

 

[Killion]

And that's about as descriptive an explaination as it deserves.

Yepp. Strange Legend. Y'know, I bet if Jerry accidentally drove a car off of a cliff and fell, in slow motion, about a mile down into the Grand Canyon, well. I bet he'd get really infuriated to find the brakes didnt work while he was sailing through the atmosphere and would just keep on angrily pumping the pedal for all it was worth fully expecting the car to stop in mid-air.

 

[RR]

Since its business as usual for the Coyotes organization, this 2 Yr STH deal seems really interesting.

Any Yotes fans have thoughts on how this might help the STH base or how it might impact the financial side of things vs a traditional STH plan?

Wonder if this is any of MH's marketing spunk

As it's only available to current full-season STH it's simply a retention program and I expect it will go well.

 

[Whileee]

21. If the team were not sold locally, then all of those rights described in the above agreements would be of no value. They would have, for example, $25M in trust to build a parking garage for a non-NHL arena, and the NHL is not in that business. The parking rights would be extinguished, as there would be no team OR arena manager. None of it would be worth the bother or the legal fees necessary to reconvey things to Ellman or the CoG as might be needed (for the $25M parking garage escrow, for example). Accordingly, these contracts were placed in this optional category.

Thanks. Very enlightening.

One possible quibble though, related to the bolded part of your post above... Why do you contend that without the Coyotes as a tenant there is no arena manager, and therefore no value to the parking rights? As an example, the MTS Centre in Winnipeg has no NHL team, but the arena continues to operate, with folks parking around the arena for various events. Hocking and Walker both projected rather nice parking revenues in the future for non-hockey events at the Jobing.com. If the Coyotes are not sold locally, who owns the parking rights?

 

[Jeffrey93]

If the Coyotes are not sold locally, who owns the parking rights?

Not answering your question but more commenting on the whole parking issue with respect to your question.

Who owns the freaking parking lots??? Does the parking lot owner not, by default, also own the rights to charge for parking in that lot?

Now, I assume the parking lot Owner is the City of Glendale. So I am still baffled as to how they have to PAY to get those parking rights instead of it simply being a negotiated item in the lease.

For example, in the arena lease it would read..."The City of Glendale retains the rights to charge for parking on/in parking lots owned by The City of Glendale."

Seems like it would be a lot cheaper to add that line instead of giving the rights to the team and then buying them back at a mark-up that would make the Kwik-E-Mart look like a bargain shop.

If the team moves I would assume the parking rights would be defaulted back to Glendale to offer in an agreement with any arena management partner they see fit. Which again makes me believe that these rights are Glendale's to give....but they are instead purchasing them. Really boggles the mind.

 

[GSC2k2*]

Not answering your question but more commenting on the whole parking issue with respect to your question.

Who owns the freaking parking lots??? Does the parking lot owner not, by default, also own the rights to charge for parking in that lot?

Now, I assume the parking lot Owner is the City of Glendale. So I am still baffled as to how they have to PAY to get those parking rights instead of it simply being a negotiated item in the lease.

For example, in the arena lease it would read..."The City of Glendale retains the rights to charge for parking on/in parking lots owned by The City of Glendale."

Seems like it would be a lot cheaper to add that line instead of giving the rights to the team and then buying them back at a mark-up that would make the Kwik-E-Mart look like a bargain shop.

If the team moves I would assume the parking rights would be defaulted back to Glendale to offer in an agreement with any arena management partner they see fit. Which again makes me believe that these rights are Glendale's to give....but they are instead purchasing them. Really boggles the mind.

Jeffrey, I would suggest that you read my post. I know it is lengthy, but your answers are in there.

 

[GSC2k2*]

Thanks. Very enlightening.

One possible quibble though, related to the bolded part of your post above... Why do you contend that without the Coyotes as a tenant there is no arena manager, and therefore no value to the parking rights? As an example, the MTS Centre in Winnipeg has no NHL team, but the arena continues to operate, with folks parking around the arena for various events. Hocking and Walker both projected rather nice parking revenues in the future for non-hockey events at the Jobing.com. If the Coyotes are not sold locally, who owns the parking rights?

1. Sorry, I did not mean to contend that without the Coyotes there is no arena manager. I simply threw the arena manager in there. THe reality, though, is that the team must be there in order for the parking rights to continue to apply to the arena manager (in addition to the arena itself needing to be there). That was some loose language on my part.

2. Accordingly, the answer to your question is: the developer (Ellman) - which, if you think about it, also happens to be the sensible, logical outcome.

3. As an aside, it would not be appropriate to assume that one could simply hive off the non-hockey parking and assume that one could achieve the balance of the results in the absence of a team. There is synergy as a result of the team's presence in terms of selling club seats and suites (which normally carry rights for other events as well), at the very least.

 

[Fugu]

Is there any chance that a court, assuming GWI would file a suit, would consider proportionality? Meaning one could look at the value of what was given to Elman-- an arena was built for his team to the tune of $180m, parking rights for the arena, he promised a parking garage for $25m, etc.

Factor in that there was never any parking revenue close to the amount that is being projected, and one does wonder what is in the air at the city govt building.

As an interesting aside, who would have the parking rights to the $25m garage that was supposed to be built by the developer if it had been needed?

 

[wlecoyote]

cfl

And they win their 8th straight. It is starting to remind me of the CFL in the 80's and 90's where every year the team facing bankruptcy miracolously made it to the Grey Cup

 

[blues10]

Talked with my ST rep today, they are mailing playoff notices and 2 year season ticket renewal packets. Interesting.

My Coyotes ticket rep phoned me too wanting to know if I would be interested in single game tickets either this year or next season. The only difference being that I live over 1000 miles from Glendale and don't have a vaction place in Arizona. I have only ever attended 3 games at jobing.com. It looks like the ticket reps are pounding the phones hard to generate ticket sales for this season and in the future. Time will tell if it is successful or not.

 

[Jeffrey93]

Jeffrey, I would suggest that you read my post. I know it is lengthy, but your answers are in there.

You're right...it is lengthy.

So...Ellman owns the rights? Didn't the team own them when Moyes was around?

I don't get how these agreements remain even though Ownership has changed hands.

I also don't get how this Hulsizer shows up and suddenly needs to be paid for parking rights.

Last thing I don't get (that I'm going to mention) is how it makes any business sense to pay that much for parking rights. If the parking rights were that lucrative it would stand to reason that Hulsizer would want to retain them. If they aren't that lucrative it would stand to reason that the City of Glendale would leave them with the team Owner and find a better way to spend a ridiculous amount of cash they don't have.

 

[Fidel Astro]

And they win their 8th straight. It is starting to remind me of the CFL in the 80's and 90's where every year the team facing bankruptcy miracolously made it to the Grey Cup

Anybody have numbers re: Coyotes attendance lately?

Has the winning streak improved things, or are people still staying home due to the idiotic "bad ownership" excuse?

 

[metalfoot]

Some industrious soul is dutifully logging every game here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010–11_Phoenix_Coyotes_season

So that should do you.

 

[CGG]

23. For its $140M, the NHL has effectively purchased the team and these ancillary contractual rights that it had with the developer and other Ellman entities, such as parking. Parking is a valuable cash flow stream for most pro sports teams, with rare exceptions (the Leafs, I believe, do not control parking in downtown TO) due to its high profit margins of 75-80%. Again, of course, it makes no sense to have an arena and not even have the right of your patrons to park in the vicinity or traverse the land on the way to the arena AT ALL. Given the location of the arena in the middle of the development, that would lead to zero attendance.

I guess the $100 million question is, how valuable is this cash flow stream? I agree that it would be valuable for most teams, but parking has pulled in something close to $0 for as long as the Coyotes have played in Glendale. Based on real history instead of wildly concocted future estimates, how much is that parking worth when it has been mostly free up til now? $100 million? I don't think so.

 

[Evil Doctor]

B. In light of the frighteningly large complexity of these transactions and the multiplicity of the parties involved (and that does not even count the bond issue, with more issues, more due diligence and more parties involved), does the "two weeks" punchline still hold a lot of currency for anyone?

I know it has caused a lot of mirth for some time. I get that, completely. I merely submit that, when all is said and done, it is somewhat misplaced.

Considering that the 'two weeks' comments were coming from the players themselves, it was hardly misplaced. Back in September we first started to hear that the deal would close in 'two weeks', and of course two weeks pass and we would hear that it would close in 'two weeks'. These estimates would sometimes come from the media doing their usual 'quoting' of supposed insider sources, but often it came directly from Hulsizer or a COG rep. The most conservative estimate at that time for closing came from the NHL that said it would close at mid-December at the latest. We're now past that by 2 and a half months, and in that all that time the sale another NHL franchise was initiated and completed. I believe all the mirth at this is well placed and deserved.

 

[cbcwpg]

^----

Well said E.D..

If it had been poeple on this forum or just the media making up " 2 weeks " the joke would have died long ago, but everytime someone in the know ( the NHL, the CoG, or Hulsizer ) is asked for a timeframe they have always said 2 weeks. And of course 2 weeks comes and goes every 2 weeks.

The whole process is a joke and if you can't laugh at it you will go crazy.

 

[Evil Doctor]

Then you can do the prequel... dig up the old threads where people laughed off suggestions that Moyes had given up control of the team.

The prequels:

12-08-2008 Hockey in The Desert (Phoenix franchise and finance/business matters)
02-04-2009 Hockey in the Desert II (Phoenix Coyotes franchise and business matters)

 

[Buck Aki Berg]

Anybody have numbers re: Coyotes attendance lately?

Has the winning streak improved things, or are people still staying home due to the idiotic "bad ownership" excuse?

Saturday, February 12 (Chicago): 17,283
Monday, February 14 (Washington): 13,856
Thursday, February 17 (Atlanta): 10,576

These are games 4, 5, and 6 of the streak. The Chicago crowd was expected. The Caps game isn't bad for a Monday night, not to mention Valentine's Day. Atlanta's clearly a dud, but they're a poor draw everywhere.

And I don't know where you're getting a "bad ownership" excuse - if people are intentionally staying home en masse, it's because they don't know whether or not the team will be there for any length of time, and there's nothing idiotic about that.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

It's the Moyes AMULA, and the account he's referring to is for the ticket-surcharge proceeds the Team was to deposit into the City account.

I think he missed the part referencing 8.1 in clause 7.7, which refers specifically to the Team controlling the rights to charge for parking (8.1.3).

The controlling of the right to charge for parking is different than keeping the proceeds from that right. This appears that even though E/M had the right to charge or not charge for parking, the proceeds of those charges went to the CoG which means they owned the rights to the revenue from the parking which is what they say they are now trying to purchase.

Saturday, February 12 (Chicago): 17,283
Monday, February 14 (Washington): 13,856
Thursday, February 17 (Atlanta): 10,576

These are games 4, 5, and 6 of the streak. The Chicago crowd was expected. The Caps game isn't bad for a Monday night, not to mention Valentine's Day. Atlanta's clearly a dud, but they're a poor draw everywhere.

And I don't know where you're getting a "bad ownership" excuse - if people are intentionally staying home en masse, it's because they don't know whether or not the team will be there for any length of time, and there's nothing idiotic about that.

That is just wrong when you get 13k to watch one of the elite teams and one of the elite players in the league. Atlanta I understand.......