Phoenix XCVI: The Government You Deserve ...

[manisback121]

Goldwater is currently suing the City of Phoenix and it's police department over an agreement between them. I wouldn't count on it.

The unions are different, especially if it's caused by job losses directly connected to budget shortfalls as a result of needing cash for the deal.

They don't need to joi suit together, they go as separate parties.

If its the national unions, those guys only see cops from their local losing their jobs or being provided second rate equipment over this and look to send a message.

 

[cbcwpg]

Those who find Legends' shilling for RSE dishonest would probably be interested in the results of the poll running on the front of www.azcentral.com right now

I'm not saying the public can't make a difference. I'm just saying that in the hour or so that people get to spew JUST before a vote is unlikely to change how any council member is about to vote. They have already made up their minds.

As for the poll. I don't see a surprise... 36% don't like it ... 64% either like it or don't give a crap. The people who don't give a crap are effectively voting in favour by their choice to not oppose.

 

[TheLegend]

A honest question though. Forgetting for a second what this vote was about, do you think any council member on any issue actually changed how they were going to vote based on what the public says, just before they vote? People need to speak because that's just how the process works, but nothing joe public says is going to change anything IMO. Now as for the officials or lawyers speaking, sure they might change a vote because they can offer information that might make a difference, but the public? I don't think they make any difference.

Honest answer..... I doubt it sways them very much.

Manny's objections probably went away when RSE guaranteed to cover Glendale losses over the budgeted amounts and the other 8 points or so.

I sincerely believe had RSE not accepted any of the changes from their counter proposal on Friday he would have voted no.

 

[XX]

They have already made up their minds.

No doubt. Sherwood's "I woke up comfortable with this deal" would be grounds for dismissal in an ideal world. Hugh and Weiers looked like the only two that actually considered the terms of the deal. The rest just looked at as "should the team stay or go?"

Disappointing. Too much risk on Glendale's end. No one even bothered to ask the good commissioner why he is insisting upon $170m if no one has been willing to pay that so far.

Leblanc's comments in the days after haven't exactly inspired confidence.

 

[BnGBear1970]

Leblanc's comments in the days after haven't exactly inspired confidence.

How so? Is it a lack of confidence in his ability to close the sale or to revive the franchise and avoid triggering the out clause?

 

[XX]

How so? Is it a lack of confidence in his ability to close the sale or to revive the franchise and avoid triggering the out clause?

Typical smarmy snake oil salesman "quite frankly we need to focus on hockey, not the business side" whenever anyone questions how little skin RSE actually has in the game. Gambo roasted him on local radio and he just gave fluff answers to pretty much everything.

"I don't get into anything looking to fail" plays well with fans who aren't bright enough to see that 'failure' here is potentially a profitable thing for RSE and the league.

 

[cbcwpg]

No one even bothered to ask the good commissioner why he is insisting upon $170m if no one has been willing to pay that .

That's the one question I was hoping someone would ask, and was disappointed it wasn't. I think we all know the answer is to do with making the NHL whole on a sale, but it would have been nice to see Bettman tell the CoG why and put it on public record.

" I need $170MM because that's what I promised the people that pay my salary I was going to get "

 

[Maupin Fan]

Typical smarmy snake oil salesman "quite frankly we need to focus on hockey, not the business side" whenever anyone questions how little skin RSE actually has in the game. Gambo roasted him on local radio and he just gave fluff answers to pretty much everything.

"I don't get into anything looking to fail" plays well with fans who aren't bright enough to see that 'failure' here is potentially a profitable thing for RSE and the league.

To be honest, unless this team starts turning a profit, failure is actually better for the CoG as well if that opt out clause gets invoked.

 

[Killion]

Wouldn't that be fun?

You mean like Buyers Remorse?.... not really MNN. I take no joy in watching what RSE & the NHL's putting these poor people through quite needlessly.

Could it be that even the majority of original detractors finally realize that the city is better off with the staying in Glendale?

Completely agree, the Coyotes belong there, no question about it. I just wish some sanity would enter the picture kihekah. Theres no reason for this but for the league itself failing to match its words with the appropriate actions in facilitating a local sale.

Goldwater is currently suing the City of Phoenix and it's police department over an agreement between them. I wouldn't count on it.

I dont "wish it" TL. I wish it were not so, that it wasnt even a remote possibility, that everything was in fact completely kosher. But it aint.

 

[Donwood]

Leblanc is a minnow in the ocean, his ambitions are big and his ability's are limited. I assume he will be the Coyotes governor which should give a few chuckles at the first BoG meeting he goes to. He's way over his head and I doubt it will be long before he proves it.

 

[TheLegend]

http://www.tbnewswatch.com/sports/288210/Pro-hockey-in-Thunder-Bay-still-among-LeBlanc’s-goals

Looks like the Coyotes aren't enough for this new hockey mogul, or is Thunder Bay LeBlanc's Plan B.

Uh.... according to the article the city contacted him to see if he was still interested.

Nothin' like a little context play....

 

[TheLegend]

Typical smarmy snake oil salesman "quite frankly we need to focus on hockey, not the business side" whenever anyone questions how little skin RSE actually has in the game. Gambo roasted him on local radio and he just gave fluff answers to pretty much everything.

"I don't get into anything looking to fail" plays well with fans who aren't bright enough to see that 'failure' here is potentially a profitable thing for RSE and the league.

Hey.... don't forget me..... his shill.

By the way...... you honestly think a poll from azcentral really means anything?? [HINT..... it's been hashed over on this board before.]

 

[MNNumbers]

You mean like Buyers Remorse?.... not really MNN. I take no joy in watching what RSE & the NHL's putting these poor people through quite needlessly.

No, you are misunderstanding me, Killion. I am thinking more like this:

I want to see Bettman suffer like he is forcing others to do.

One possibility for that is that either RSE can't close, or the legal pressures become too great for CoG to withstand. (Not that I want CoG under pressure, that's not the idea).

In any case, something to delay this - Referendum, GWI legal action, RSE can't close, etc.

Then, in the aftermath of all the publicity associated with that, Knaack, Chavira or Martinez (Sherwood is hopeless) decides the NHL is actually a problem, not a solution.

So, you end up with:

No sale, therefore no lease.
NHL has a team, but no lease.
CoG doesn't want to deal with NHL any more.

It is Aug 15th.

Wouldn't you like to watch Bettman in that situation?

No lease in Glendale. No negotiations. SMG running the place. CoG instructing them - no favors to Coyotes. They can pay rent the same as any other act. If you have something already booked, they work around that.

Bettman would be skewered. Losing money fast. Only one alternative, if that - an emergency move to QC.

That would be great theatre.

 

[barneyg]

Do we even know how expenses are calculated under this agreement? That seems to be a rather pertinent issue.

We didn't under both drafts. I'm eager to see whether Birnbaum will get to add a restrictive definition as the city no longer has its own out clause.

Obviously I replied to the guy who posted it. I don't follow all the links, infact I've only visited Clarke's supposed site once and there is no way to be sure it is even her is there?

There was no link, that whole post by powerstuck was "let's look at what was posted in the Phoenix megathread one year ago"...

Also, I'm having a hard time seeing and financial incentive for Glendale with this proposal, a best case scenario has the city breaking even on the arena (which is still a loss of 9million over the budgeted 6.5) so is the hope purely on taxes from surrounding area businesses? If so, wouldn't the higher game expenses give those same consumers less cash to spend otherwheres?

what do you mean by "the city breaking even on the arena is still a loss of 9million over the budgeted 6.5"? the best case scenario has the city paying 6.5 net.

 

[MNNumbers]

We didn't under both drafts. I'm eager to see whether Birnbaum will get to add a restrictive definition as the city no longer has its own out clause.



There was no link, that whole post by powerstuck was "let's look at what was posted in the Phoenix megathread one year ago"...



what do you mean by "the city breaking even on the arena is still a loss of 9million over the budgeted 6.5"? the best case scenario has the city paying 6.5 net.

Actually, Barney, doesn't the best case scenario have city doing better if the place sells out this year, so the ticket surcharge goes to 3.75 next year, and then they sell out again, with a bunch of cars parking there.....

Probably not a realistic scenario, but still...

 

[wunderpanda]

I just had the numbers backwards or something. I meant that with the projected revenue covering the expenditure over the budgeted 6.5 million, CoG still spends that 6.5 and may not recover it because revenues are going towards the 'extra' 9 million they spent.

Having a hard time explaining it, sorry. The first 9million that RSE repays the city covers the amount over the budget. So RSE must repay the city more than 9million before a return on the budgeted 6.5 is seen, and more than 15 million before the city would see an actual profit.

I just don't see how the city expects to get a return above the 15million they are giving to RSE, when the projections are a return of 9-11 million. The best they are being offered is a loss of 6.5 million.
(again, sorry for having trouble explaining what I mean)

 

[Killion]

Wouldn't you like to watch Bettman in that situation?... That would be great theatre.

... ah, ya, it would be, but it'd never happen He's way to smart for that and SMG if they were appointed as you suggest would be entirely NHL friendly. Nothing punitive. Dates blocked out or whatever. The NHL would be charged a bare minimum. Barely blink, cause a stir really.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

This is what Im thinkin. Jones could well wind up with a sizeable body of well organized volunteers, actual city employee's themselves, Cops, Firefighters etc who Id imagine are angrier than Hornets in some cases that the city goes gambling like this while stations are being shuttered, trucks put on blocks etc. Doesnt appear the fallout's actually hit the fan yet but Im pretty sure its going to and how.

Apathy, thy name is Glendale.

Have you ever seen a politically less engaged citizenry?

 

[GJB]

And if many of those letters came from Glendale residents would you feel so smug then???

Some of the people who spoke in favor of the deal Tuesday night were from (gasp!!) Glendale. Guess their opinions didn't matter either??

My point was simply that someone in Mr. Martinez' position should be capable of going over all the inside information they are privy to and make a decision based upon those facts. His job is to know the deal inside and out and vote on what's best for the citizens, instead he made it sound like it came down to a couple of sharply written emails in favor of the Coyotes.

 

[Maupin Fan]

My point was simply that someone in Mr. Martinez' position should be capable of going over all the inside information they are privy to and make a decision based upon those facts. His job is to know the deal inside and out and vote on what's best for the citizens, instead he made it sound like it came down to a couple of sharply written emails in favor of the Coyotes.

Half of that council would appear to be challenged by the act of balancing a checkbook, let alone understanding the financial projections set forth and implications of such for the city. I was just happy that CM Martinez is in fact literate.

 

[Killion]

Apathy, thy name is Glendale. Have you ever seen a politically less engaged citizenry?

You might enjoy reading Bird on Fire (University of Oxford Press, 2011). Discusses at great length the unsustainability of Phoenix from socio-political & economic perspectives, displacement, topophilia etc and how as a result of everything from Global Warming to Federal, State & Municipal policies a certain malaise, apathy is indeed rather pervasive, though hardly unique to Arizona. Just more pronounced for a variety of reasons.

 

[Ernie]

You might enjoy reading Bird on Fire (University of Oxford Press, 2011). Discusses at great length the unsustainability of Phoenix from socio-political & economic perspectives, displacement, topophilia etc and how as a result of everything from Global Warming to Federal, State & Municipal policies a certain malaise, apathy is indeed rather pervasive, though hardly unique to Arizona. Just more pronounced for a variety of reasons.

Yes, it just seems like an unrestrained desire for growth lead to the Coyotes being put in Glendale in the first place, and, even after all that has happened, that desire stayed strong.

Plenty of cities have seen pro sports teams come and go, but Glendale couldn't, because it can't picture itself doing anything that would appear to be taking a step back. Damn the torpedos, full speed ahead!

 

[wildcat48]

Uh.... according to the article the city contacted him to see if he was still interested.

Nothin' like a little context play....

It wouldn't shock me one bit to see the Coyotes move their AHL affiliation from here in Portland to Thunder Bay. It would almost be the Portland way of past affiliations. Anaheim was sold to the Samueli's and they move their affiliation to Iowa. Buffalo is sold to Terry Pegula and they relocate back to Rochester so it only makes sense for Phoenix err Arizona to move to Thunder Bay.

 

[TheLegend]

It wouldn't shock me one bit to see the Coyotes move their AHL affiliation from here in Portland to Thunder Bay. It would almost be the Portland way of past affiliations. Anaheim was sold to the Samueli's and they move their affiliation to Iowa. Buffalo is sold to Terry Pegula and they relocate back to Rochester so it only makes sense for Phoenix err Arizona to move to Thunder Bay.

That possibility did cross my mind. But for now it seems to me they are content to keeping the hockey operations as they are.

 

[Glacial]

What happens if...

- RSE can no longer afford their end of the arrangement before Year 5? Imagine if they can't meet payroll.
- Glendale can't come up with their end of the arrangement before Year 5?
- Both RSE & Glendale can't come up with their end of the arrangement at the same time?

Does the NHL give RSE another loan? Does the NHL take over and assume full/direct ownership again? Of course, in all realism, they & Glendale are still subsidizing the team. At what point does Fortress play hardball/enforcer to try and get "their" money?