Phoenix LIX: The JIG is up?

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TheLegend

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Aug 30, 2009
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Much like if the Coyotes never play at the Job again the arena would cost next to nothing to operate. Right?

Or "much less" right? ;)

Glad we finally agree and you see what we've all been saying for the past 3 threads.

Actually.... I've been pretty much along those lines the past three years... and fully understand where just about everyone who's posted during that time stands.

You're just now beginning to realize that. ;)
 

TheLegend

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Aug 30, 2009
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Isn't the better question: What happens to Westgate if there is a lockout? Does it implode immediately? If the Coyotes are the sole economic contributor to the center, as suggested by Hocking (and backed by some here), how long could it stay afloat during a lockout? A day? A week? Surely not much longer, right?

A lockout would be really useful in reminding Westgate of how important the Coyotes are to the bottom line. Or, nobody would notice and the year-to-year comparisons for tax revenues would show that it made essentially no difference. Whichever.
)


You and I both know it wouldn't implode..... IF the lockout runs only one year.

The restaurants and bars next to the arena would take a hit though.
 

MAROONSRoad

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Feb 24, 2007
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I have my doubts about that, especially in real dollar terms.

Hell, the Dallas Cowboys are getting almost the same amount in subsidies as the "AMF" from their home county of Arlington alone, and they sure as hell aren't in any kind of financial pickle or dealing with a marginal fan base.

The Cowboys stadium was built with over 70% private funds. It's a triple net lease meaning that in addition to paying rent the Cowboys are responsible for maintenance of the building, taxes and insurance. It's a completed different deal. $800 million in private funds were used to build the stadium. The devil is always in the details which makes the discussion more difficult.
 

Whileee

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May 29, 2010
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As the 'Pegger earlier pointed out, it's an Arena Management Fee (AMF), not a Coyotes Management Fee (CMF).
We don't agree on much, but this appears to be an exception.

In any case, the whole question is neither here nor there because nobody in a position of authority on the issue has given any indication that this is being considered. It's just a fringe candidate for mayor trying to create an angle for votes ahead of an election.

The entire lease is contingent on Jamison owning the Coyotes and the Coyotes playing at the Jobing.com. So, while it isn't a CMF, the entire rationale for the lease agreement and the AMF was built around the assumption that the Coyotes would be the anchor tenant, thereby driving costs and revenues.

It is premature to suggest that "nobody in a position of authority" is considering this, because we haven't seen a key clause of the lease, which is related to performance expectations. You might be correct in suggesting that the COG doesn't care about frittering away several million dollars here and there by overpaying on the AMF without getting the Coyotes home games or having Jamison adhere to any performance standards as the arena manager, but until the performance clause details are known that is pure speculation. My larger point is that even if the COG is inclined to be cavalier in how they spend public money on the AMF, they could face problems on this if challenged based on the gift clause.
 

aqib

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Feb 13, 2012
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I don't think the $25M payments were ever considered "arena management fees".
As I recall (and as a number of articles from last year are echoing), those payments to the NHL were explicitly to help cover team losses.

Yes, but the mayor specifically said "its not a subsidy its a management fee" in a meeting. I don't remember if it was in the meeting where it was passed for the second time or in the cupcake summit.
 

fishbert

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Feb 22, 2012
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As the 'Pegger earlier pointed out, it's an Arena Management Fee (AMF), not a Coyotes Management Fee (CMF).
We don't agree on much, but this appears to be an exception.

In any case, the whole question is neither here nor there because nobody in a position of authority on the issue has given any indication that this is being considered. It's just a fringe candidate for mayor trying to create an angle for votes ahead of an election.
It is premature to suggest that "nobody in a position of authority" is considering this...
I didn't say that; I said nobody in a position of authority on the issue has given any indication that this is being considered.
 

OthmarAmmann

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Jul 7, 2010
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I don't think the $25M payments were ever considered "arena management fees".
As I recall (and as a number of articles from last year are echoing), those payments to the NHL were explicitly to help cover team losses.

That's the point isn't it? Calling the payment an AMF won't change the substance of it. Hell, Clark as said they could use the $17 mm budget allocation for the AMF to cover the NHL's losses in the event the deal doesn't close. :laugh: At least in the arrangement with the NHL their payment is reduced if losses are less than $25 million.
 

MaskedSonja

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Feb 3, 2007
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Only two more weeks until another 30 day extension.

So exciting.

Actually, I expect a (if possible) "there is an indefinite extention in place until the CBA matters are resolved" type comment from Bettman.

Now I know there's the argument some may say "it's apples and oranges"-but I think the NHL is going to use the disruption as a way of allowing more time.

But yea, it is exciting.....where's the tv remote?:help:
 

CasualFan

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Nov 27, 2009
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Call it whatever you want, but it's the greatest tax payer subsidy ever proposed for an NHL team/arena and likely the greatest ever of all of the 4 major sports.

It might be the greatest spectacle of all time but NFL teams have received far more generous subsidies. Fish posted the Vikings link and that may not even be as generous as the Raiders, Rams, and Bengals deals.

The cost of the arena is not a subsidy; Glendale owns the arena.

* This is all semantics and admittedly serves no purpose but I do enjoy the topic and the debate.

Arena/Stadium construction becomes a subsidy when the owner of the facility forfeits all of the revenue generated by the building to the tenant. Ownership of the facility often becomes an additional subsidy as it allows the tenant controlling the building revenue to avoid paying property taxes.

If City X pays $1B to build a stadium, then leases that stadium to Team Y in a manner that allows the team to realize all of the stadium revenues, the cost of construction is a subsidy. The city is bearing an expense for the benefit of the team. Further, by maintaining ownership of the building, City X is granting Team Y an additional subsidy in the form of property tax avoidance (and perhaps capx avoidance as well). There could also be tax-exempt bond mechanisms to pay for construction or other such components which would further increase the value of the subsidy. There is quite a bit of academic research on this subject.

The $324 is not all subsidy, either. It's a high figure, but arena management services are being rendered. If you want to quantify a level of subsidy, you need to look at the difference between this figure and what it "should" cost to manage the arena. Consensus in here previously has been $8M-10M/year in today's dollars is reasonable. Over 20 years this would come to $160M-200M in today's dollars. The $324M over 20 years figure is $203M in today's dollars (assuming a 6.5% discount rate and the year-by-year payment structure of the draft agreement). This would appear on the surface to be a subsidy for arena management of $3M-43M in today's dollars over the 20 years.

Your phrasing appears to have omitted several key components.
*I was going to facetiously say "What? Your ledger doesn't have a revenue column? :dunno:" However, I figured that you or the others would probably take it the wrong way and then the whole point would be lost. I would have meant it in a lighthearted way but it would have likely been received as demeaning and arrogant. Just thought I'd mention that. Anyway, let's continue...​

There are a couple of clarifications that might be helpful here. We should probably start with some definitions:

"Arena Management Services (AMS)" the act of booking the arena and completing the accompanying administrative tasks

"Arena Operating Expenses (AOE)" the cost of operating the arena for the purpose of hosting events

"Arena Operating Revenue (AOR)" the revenue generated from the events held at the arena.


*I'm not concerned with the dollar figures at all. I used whatever amount you provided for convenience.

In your equation, it appears that you combine AMS and AOE in your "should" cost $8M-10M/year to manage the arena figure. I think that makes sense as they are both expenses. However, your formula completely omits AOR. Where is the revenue generated from the events held at the arena in your accounting? I'm not suggesting that we apply GAAP to our internet message forum posts but even sketching out the transaction for entertainment purposes should include expense and revenue, no? This is the point of origin of Clarkonomics. Just isolate whichever side of the ledger favors your position and completely ignore the other side. "We have to pay someone to manage the arena" Yes, Joyce; but you probably shouldn't pay someone who is going to keep all the revenues from your building in addition to taking the management payment.

Seriously? Have you ever heard such an absurdly stupid notion? We have to pay all this money to operate the arena but there are no profits from it. How can you program arena events that cost that much to operate yet deliver no revenue?

Back in reality, far away from Joyce Clark, publicly available data from other arenas demonstrates that the AOR figure is proximate to the AOE*. If you spend $8-10M/year to operate the arena, you're going to make $8-10M/year in revenue from the arena. For the Clarkonomic students out there, allow me to repeat that: If you pay the operating costs for a property, it stands to reason that you will receive the operating revenues generated by the property. Over 20 years the AMS/AOE expense comes to $160M-200M in today's dollars and the AOR comes to about $160M-200M too. That makes the net of arena operations: $0*


*I'm fine with any case that presents this number as slightly higher or lower than $0 depending on market conditions for any given year.​

By comparison, in the JIG lease, over 20 years the AMS/AOE figure is $203M in today's dollars and the AOR figure (per GlendaleAZ.com) is $44.9MM. That makes the net of arena operations: -$158.7MM.

The net cost of arena operations without the Coyotes is approx. $0
The net cost of arena operations with the Coyotes is approx. -$158.MM

That, Fish, appears on its surface to be a large scale subsidy.

How do you get around this problem? You retain Thomas L Hocking to skew the revenue numbers. This is why I have long contended that the deal would not likely survive a gift clause challenge. These are the Hocking assumptions used in the gift clause analysis for arena operations without the Coyotes:

AMS+AOE = $192MM NPV
AOR = $15.6MM NPV
NET: -$176.5MM

Of course, Hocking is currently a defendant in a fraud trial for providing intentionally misleading forecasts for another arena.
 

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
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At least in the arrangement with the NHL their payment is reduced if losses are less than $25 million.

.... yepp, sure it is, sure thing. Totally open & transparent is our beloved NHL in providing actual statements to the COG outlining where that money went & what it covered. That money wouldve been withdrawn in full from the escrow account at 12:01AM on the very day it was available to them. They've provided nothing to the COG in terms of an actual Statement of Costs, and when asked to do so, told Beasley they'd "take it under advisement, get back to you on that" or some such nonsense.

Just why the COG (Scruggs specifically, who for awhile was demanding Beasley go after the league for it) would even want one when it would then wind up in the public domain, shredding the fallacy that it was an "Arena Management Fee" at all was either naivete' on an epic scale or a brilliant act by the Mayor in feigned outrage. Anger at the league yes, but perhaps more so at herself for being so foolish as to agreeing to the payments in the first place without demanding accountability from the NHL. Both the $25M per annum fee's paid to the NHL & the $320M promised to Jamison are not "Arena Management Fee's". They are simply called that in order to dodge challenge (while providing a foundation for argument) for what they truly are; direct subsidies. You do not want a paper trail when your pulling a hire wire act like that, invoices, statements n' whatnot...

We have yet to see the actual "Performance Clause's" in the Arena Management Contract negotiated between the COG & Jamison. Im wondering if there even are any short of the promises, platitudes & Cub Scout Pledges contained therein. Im sorry, I hate to be harsh, I really & truly do believe Phoenix is not only worth saving but that it can be turned around. But like this? :shakehead
 
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