Phoenix CXXXVII - and the band plays on

[Fairview]

Easy for the “local fanbase” to have that train of thought when you’ve had ten years worth of doom and gloom and predictions of relocations shoved down your throat by the national AND local media.

Statements from Bettman et al have been used on this board for everything from calling it a negotiation ploy to “absolute proof hockey doesn’t belong in the desert.” The biases run deep... all the way down to the cheeky references of “The Ice Clowns” or Andrew Barroway as “Borrowaway”.

Yet.... this year the team had it’s best attendance figures in nearly ten years. With TV viewership up (even exceeding the Suns for most of the year) and corporate sponsorships up.

Really, what is said on this board is irrelevant. I don’t believe that the bulk of the fan base even knows that this place exists. As far as media coverage, mainstream media is just repeating the NHL line. I have not heard a story in years that says anything other than the team will be fine when they get their new arena( which according to them..is inevitable). The odd statement that does come out concerning relocation is easily balanced out by the quick counter by some unnamed NHL source claiming that the team is a mere weeks away from the ultimate solution. Concerning what many on here believe to be true, I would say the majority of reports insulate the fan base from any negative reports. I think most of the negative PR concerning the team comes from within.
I am not certain that the reports of attendance being up actually stand up to what has been observed. The last game was announced as a sell out, when clearly you can see rows of patrons disguised as empty seats. Maybe they were sold and were no-shows...maybe not?

 

[zetajerk]

Really, what is said on this board is irrelevant. I don’t believe that the bulk of the fan base even knows that this place exists. As far as media coverage, mainstream media is just repeating the NHL line. I have not heard a story in years that says anything other than the team will be fine when they get their new arena( which according to them..is inevitable). The odd statement that does come out concerning relocation is easily balanced out by the quick counter by some unnamed NHL source claiming that the team is a mere weeks away from the ultimate solution. Concerning what many on here believe to be true, I would say the majority of reports insulate the fan base from any negative reports. I think most of the negative PR concerning the team comes from within.
I am not certain that the reports of attendance being up actually stand up to what has been observed. The last game was announced as a sell out, when clearly you can see rows of patrons disguised as empty seats. Maybe they were sold and were no-shows...maybe not?

You have a team again. Why don't you go do that?

 

[Stumbledore]

It is not only the posters on this board that hold that opinion. It is apparently the belief of a large percentage of the team’s local fan base as well. It has been used as one of the factors in the team’s lack of support. Also, the relocation rumours are fueled partly by info coming from the NHL side of things. Statements from Bettman that the team cannot remain permanently at GRA,the team must have a new venue to remain in the market(with nothing happening on that front for 2+years now) or from Borrowaway stating that if we cannot secure a new venue, we will have to have a“discussion” about what will happen next. These statements coming from supposedly the market’s strongest advocates, would not instill much confidence in the future of the team in Arizona.
Add to that an ownership group that refuses to extend their lease for anything longer than 1 year at a time, even though it would take much longer than one year to negotiate, finance and construct a new arena.

I heard very similar stories at the last game I attended at GRA this month. (Well, while sipping at McFaddeyn's actually.) Locals told me they don't expect the team to survive because the Commissioner says it has to move and the owner never books his arena for more than one season at a time.

As a dumb herbivore, I see thousands of rabid fans having a good time and know the team has thrived since the days of Judge Baum and wish that could continue. But as a realist, when I'm sitting in an arena with at least 4,000 empty seats and then read that the team says the place was sold out...

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Statements from Bettman et al have been used on this board for everything from calling it a negotiation ploy to “absolute proof hockey doesn’t belong in the desert.” The biases run deep... all the way down to the cheeky references of “The Ice Clowns” or Andrew Barroway as “Borrowaway”..

....indicative of a fundamental disrespect for humanity, which reflects more on the posters imho than the subjects their posts.

 

[TheLegend]

I heard very similar stories at the last game I attended at GRA this month. (Well, while sipping at McFaddeyn's actually.) Locals told me they don't expect the team to survive because the Commissioner says it has to move and the owner never books his arena for more than one season at a time.

As a dumb herbivore, I see thousands of rabid fans having a good time and know the team has thrived since the days of Judge Baum and wish that could continue. But as a realist, when I'm sitting in an arena with at least 4,000 empty seats and then read that the team says the place was sold out...

You know I’ve seen lots of arenas that were “sold out” with lots of empty seats in them. Including Toronto.

Doesn’t phase me a bit other than knowing some people are missing out on a great event that was paid for.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

It is not only the posters on this board that hold that opinion. It is apparently the belief of a large percentage of the team’s local fan base as well. It has been used as one of the factors in the team’s lack of support.

This problem stems from events in 2009, when Balsillie's attempt to circumvent NHL procedures regarding ownership of an NHL franchise poisoned the well out there. I said at the time that I thought not only was the well poisoned, it was probably irreversibly poisoned and that the NHL should go after Balsillie and Rodier for tortious interference. [To this day, I still cannot believe that hasn't happened.]

Yeah, one can point to lousy attendance numbers prior to that and say a problem existed - and yes, attendance was lousy [find any number of threads around here where we discuss the relationship between attendance and team performance] - but even then, one could put together a pretty good argument that fans would show up if the team would improve and show sustained success. Post-Balsillie, not even a Cup run would get fans to turn out en masse and back the team much more than game-to-game. That series of events told fans the Coyotes were going to move, it's only a question of when. No owner is going to be able to show up and provide any kind of assurance otherwise, and no matter what public pleadings they make and what signs they give to show their intent to stay and plant roots there, no one is going to believe them.

Also, the relocation rumours are fueled partly by info coming from the NHL side of things. Statements from Bettman that the team cannot remain permanently at GRA,the team must have a new venue to remain in the market(with nothing happening on that front for 2+years now) or from Borrowaway stating that if we cannot secure a new venue, we will have to have a“discussion” about what will happen next. These statements coming from supposedly the market’s strongest advocates, would not instill much confidence in the future of the team in Arizona.

Bettman's job is to go advocate for the owners. He's said similar things in Calgary, he said similar things in Edmonton, he's said similar things in other markets. It would be one thing if the Suns would be interested in a new arena, but with the renovations to America West U.S. Airways Talking Stick Arena, that's out of the question and the Coyotes aren't going back there because they'd just have the same problems they did previously. With Phoenix kicking in $150 million for renovations and striking a deal with the Diamondbacks to get out of roughly $187 million in contractually obligated upgrades to Chase Field, I don't see where there's any appetite to contribute more money to another arena for another pro team.

 

[Bookie21]

....indicative of a fundamental disrespect for humanity, which reflects more on the posters imho than the subjects their posts.

It's an odd thing for a person to want to see the demise of something soooo badly. It's just a small group, but it's a strange little circle j#*k they have going on salivating at any news story to pop up that's a negative hit on the Coyotes

 

[BKIslandersFan]

It's an odd thing for a person to want to see the demise of something soooo badly. It's just a small group, but it's a strange little circle j#*k they have going on salivating at any news story to pop up that's a negative hit on the Coyotes

Good ol' nationalism.

 

[zetajerk]

It's an odd thing for a person to want to see the demise of something soooo badly. It's just a small group, but it's a strange little circle j#*k they have going on salivating at any news story to pop up that's a negative hit on the Coyotes

I'd love to know why there's no grudge against Avalanche fans. Is it because Denver isn't thought of as a warm weather city?

 

[Fairview]

Just curious..why you spend your time attacking the posters, rather than attacking any of the actual statements being posted. Is it because you cannot refute any of the statements?
3 posts in a row, that have nothing to say about the topic, gotta wonder who the real haters are?

 

[snowkiddin]

Any “hate” toward the Coyotes is largely due to the fact that the league has bent over backwards to keep them in the league when they’ve done nothing but lose money. If the league wants to keep bailing out the team that’s fine (I guess) but they should be doing it for everyone. Teams like the original Jets and the Thrashers didn’t have nearly the support from the league that the Coyotes have had.

Bettman needs to admit it’s a failed experiment and move the team already.

 

[sawchuk1971]

Any “hate” toward the Coyotes is largely due to the fact that the league has bent over backwards to keep them in the league when they’ve done nothing but lose money. If the league wants to keep bailing out the team that’s fine (I guess) but they should be doing it for everyone. Teams like the original Jets and the Thrashers didn’t have nearly the support from the league that the Coyotes have had.

Bettman needs to admit it’s a failed experiment and move the team already.

i'll bet if adam silver was the commish, the coyotes would be gone already....

 

[TheLegend]

Any “hate” toward the Coyotes is largely due to the fact that the league has bent over backwards to keep them in the league when they’ve done nothing but lose money. If the league wants to keep bailing out the team that’s fine (I guess) but they should be doing it for everyone. Teams like the original Jets and the Thrashers didn’t have nearly the support from the league that the Coyotes have had.

Bettman needs to admit it’s a failed experiment and move the team already.

Oh Lordy.... that revisionist narrative that never goes away.

So let’s clear a few things....

1) Arizona isn’t an “experiment.” It was a last minute landing spot for a former Canadian team that was failing financially at the time and had no where else to go.

2) The league also “bent over backwards” to keep two other Canadian teams who were losing money hand over fist from moving to the US back in the same era.

3) The Coyotes remain in Arizona because there’s still an owner who is willing to keep them there in spite of the situation.

4) Thrashers had owners who.....

a) Never wanted them to begin with. AND....
b) Were never going to allow them to remain in the arena (which they also owned) if they sold them.

 

[Mightygoose]

This is the problem when fans participate in the topic of a business forum.

Many cannot definentiate between perceived hate or people simply wanting to discuss the topic and want to use critical thinking with their thoughts. As a result people are taking things too personally to have dialogue with the content of the posts.

The Arizona Coyotes continue to be discussed not because they are below the Mason-Dixon line or because they are in a desert or even that tbey relocated from Canarda. The discussion is happening because they generate far less revenue than their expenses, have ownership looking for investors and also play in an arena where they say it's not viable long term, backed by the commissioner highlighted by no long term commitment with their year to year nature. These issues have not been rectified despite years have gone by in order to try and resolve them.

No other franchise have these combined issues, not Colorado, not Florida, not Nashville, not Edmonton....nobody

Calgary faces an uncertain future due to the arena situation. Ottawa has been an absolute circus on and off the ice. Relevant threads exist on those issues and have both people that want to discuss those and those with drive by 'move them' posts. I find people are a lot less defensive and simply embrace the current situations which are out of anyone's control.

Should the Coyotes find a long term solution to their issues, threads like this will go away, bear in mind there will always be haters. That's just the way it is. Either embrace it or use the ignore thread feature.

Sincerely,

The Mighty Goose

 

[snowkiddin]

Oh Lordy.... that revisionist narrative that never goes away.

So let’s clear a few things....

1) Arizona isn’t an “experiment.” It was a last minute landing spot for a former Canadian team that was failing financially at the time and had no where else to go.

2) The league also “bent over backwards” to keep two other Canadian teams who were losing money hand over fist from moving to the US back in the same era.

3) The Coyotes remain in Arizona because there’s still an owner who is willing to keep them there in spite of the situation.

4) Thrashers had owners who.....

a) Never wanted them to begin with. AND....
b) Were never going to allow them to remain in the arena (which they also owned) if they sold them.

The league took ownership of the Coyotes way back in 2009 after the owner declared bankruptcy. Why didn’t they do that for Quebec and Winnipeg?

The league has done everything in their power to keep the team on life support.

 

[TheLegend]

Bettman's job is to go advocate for the owners. He's said similar things in Calgary, he said similar things in Edmonton, he's said similar things in other markets. It would be one thing if the Suns would be interested in a new arena, but with the renovations to America West U.S. Airways Talking Stick Arena, that's out of the question and the Coyotes aren't going back there because they'd just have the same problems they did previously. With Phoenix kicking in $150 million for renovations and striking a deal with the Diamondbacks to get out of roughly $187 million in contractually obligated upgrades to Chase Field, I don't see where there's any appetite to contribute more money to another arena for another pro team.

Mud... Just a slight correction.

The City of Phoenix is not connected to Chase Field. That would be Maricopa County.

But you’re correct about these public entities lacking any further willingness to invest in yet another facility. The only possibilities at this point are one of the gaming tribes or now ASU (if Pagnotta did hear there were new rumblings about it)

 

[Fairview]

Oh Lordy.... that revisionist narrative that never goes away.

So let’s clear a few things....

1) Arizona isn’t an “experiment.” It was a last minute landing spot for a former Canadian team that was failing financially at the time and had no where else to go.

2) The league also “bent over backwards” to keep two other Canadian teams who were losing money hand over fist from moving to the US back in the same era.

3) The Coyotes remain in Arizona because there’s still an owner who is willing to keep them there in spite of the situation.

4) Thrashers had owners who.....

a) Never wanted them to begin with. AND....
b) Were never going to allow them to remain in the arena (which they also owned) if they sold them.

I would take issue with your point #3 as it pertains to this comparative of the Arizona vs Winnipeg. There were owners, with more wherewithal than IA, attempting to purchase the Jets BEFORE they were sold to an ownership group with no plans to keep the team in Winnipeg. Bettman(NHL) decided that they would not allow an ownership group to purchase the team. It had to be a singular owner who was responsible ultimately for any incurred debt. This is the exact opposite of what happened in Arizona with IA. Those guys were not qualified to own a house league franchise, and they proved it. The oft used statement that as long as there is an owner ready to step in and hold the team in that market, was not applied to the Winnipeg situation. I hope that it never comes to it, but it would be interesting to see how much support is given to a Canadian team in dire straits.

 

[TheLegend]

The league took ownership of the Coyotes way back in 2009 after the owner declared bankruptcy. Why didn’t they do that for Quebec and Winnipeg?

The league has done everything in their power to keep the team on life support.

You read where I said they stopped two other Canadian franchises from leaving as well. Edmonton was headed for Houston and Ottawa was also US bound until Bettman stepped up with a plan to help Canadian teams hit hard by the dropping loonie at the time.

Arizona became a unique situation because they were still fighting to maintain their right to determine where franchises can go. The NHL wasn’t they only pro sports league who had interest in this. The NFL, NBA and MLB all filed briefs in BK court backing the NHL because they knew what was at stake.

They would have gone back to Winnipeg had the City of Glendale not put up $50 million over a 2 year span to keep them at GRA while multiple groups were still looking to buy and keep the franchise in Arizona.

 

[TheLegend]

I would take issue with your point #3 as it pertains to this comparative of the Arizona vs Winnipeg. There were owners, with more wherewithal than IA, attempting to purchase the Jets BEFORE they were sold to an ownership group with no plans to keep the team in Winnipeg. Bettman(NHL) decided that they would not allow an ownership group to purchase the team. It had to be a singular owner who was responsible ultimately for any incurred debt. This is the exact opposite of what happened in Arizona with IA. Those guys were not qualified to own a house league franchise, and they proved it. The oft used statement that as long as there is an owner ready to step in and hold the team in that market, was not applied to the Winnipeg situation. I hope that it never comes to it, but it would be interesting to see how much support is given to a Canadian team in dire straits.

You forget Greg Jamison’s bid to buy the Coyotes and keep them in AZ was also rejected by Bettman and the league (costing Glendale $25M in the process) for the exact same reason.... no single majority owner/investor. Even after Glendale had approved a 15-year AMULA for Jamison similar to what IceArizona got.

That’s what prompted IceArizona to go out and find George Gosbee. Otherwise they might not have been approved of either.

 

[Fairview]

You forget Greg Jamison’s bid to buy the Coyotes and keep them in AZ was also rejected by Bettman and the league (costing Glendale $25M in the process) for the exact same reason.... no single majority owner/investor. Even after Glendale had approved a 15-year AMULA for Jamison similar to what IceArizona got.

That’s what prompted IceArizona to go out and find George Gosbee. Otherwise they might not have been approved of either.

My recollection was that Jamison fell short in gathering up enough investors to complete the purchase. I do not remember his bid being rejected even though he had enough money to complete the purchase as you are implying. I could be wrong in my recollection. Following that, what eventually happened with LeBlank and his group of financial light weights, prompted some discussion here wondering what Jamison did to get kicked to the curb, while the IA bid was much less, especially considering that they financed the majority of the purchase. IIRC, Jamison was trying to put together enough cash to purchase the team outright.

 

[Glacial]

Oh Lordy.... that revisionist narrative that never goes away.

So let’s clear a few things....

1) Arizona isn’t an “experiment.” It was a last minute landing spot for a former Canadian team that was failing financially at the time and had no where else to go.

2) The league also “bent over backwards” to keep two other Canadian teams who were losing money hand over fist from moving to the US back in the same era.

3) The Coyotes remain in Arizona because there’s still an owner who is willing to keep them there in spite of the situation.

4) Thrashers had owners who.....

a) Never wanted them to begin with. AND....
b) Were never going to allow them to remain in the arena (which they also owned) if they sold them.

Too often inconvenient facts get glossed over for a feel-good narrative (which is sometimes feel-angry/outraged because sometimes people are conditioned to wanting certain emotional buttons pushed, even if they aren't good buttons). Point 1 & 4 seem to get overlooked the most. The Coyotes had to land somewhere on short notice. It was similar with the Pilots/Brewers in baseball after their disastrous debut season in 1969. Phoenix was open and had a willing buyer. The Thrashers were a doomed team as soon as Atlanta Spirit bought the Hawks & arena. They absolutely needed to be relocated in 2011, same situation the Jetsyotes had in 1996 when Minneapolis fell through. The Coyotes had no imminent issues then or now, just the ongoing profitability issue (which led to point 3).

Point 2 gets overlooked, but not as much. Jets & Nordiques got jettisoned, but the Oilers were protected. There's a market difference (4th vs. 8th & 9th in Canada IIRC) which likely played into the league's calculus along with the qualitative value of each team (Oilers 1980s dynasty & history. Oilers looked like one of the big/iconic teams, just as Penguins & Flyers seem to get regarded as more than mere 1960s+ expansion teams, being considered in a class between the Original Six & the expansion teams. I see you mentioned the other team as Ottawa and wasn't as familiar with their relocation threat & timing of it, just that Melnyk's been a circus and had his own health scare (that shocking team photo where his skin was yellow) and the previous owner had a bunch of trouble too, just not as dysfunctional as the Melnyk era.


Point 3 is the only real matter of debate. There are willing owners, but as we've known across this saga, owning/running this team isn't quite like owning/running any other team. As was pointed out a day or two ago, majority owners/team-runners have put in staggeringly low sums to get operational control of the team. The league still has final say over the team, which is why none of the revolving door can seriously choose to relocate the team. It's the NHL equivalent of renting the Coyotes out on AirBNB. They turn the keys over to the owner of the year, biennual period. There are certainly "willing" owners, but the contention is in the "able" part. If this team was subject to normal sale conditions, those willing owners would dry up. We haven't seem the team's books, but we can infer from what we've seen in other details and from the people who looked at but ran away from the team (Reinsdorf) or didn't even bother despite interest at sports ownership that the books look like Medusa.

The league took ownership of the Coyotes way back in 2009 after the owner declared bankruptcy. Why didn’t they do that for Quebec and Winnipeg?

The league has done everything in their power to keep the team on life support.

One thing the Coyotes had that the Nordiques & Jets didn't have (at the time) does relate to national divisions... currency. The US:Canadian currency differential was wide in the 1990s to mid 2000s. This was great for US & tv movie productions to get more out of their budget and utilize a capable support crew (set builders, gaffers, cameramen, etc) & guest star pool of actors without having to go too far from California. A large number of series were filmed up there (the 17 seasons from 3 series in the Stargate franchise, Smallville, Supernatural, 5 seasons of X-Files, Earth: Final Conflict & Andromeda, Kung Fu: The Legend Continues, Highlander half the time, and several shorter-running series) and a bunch of films. It was very bad for Canadian hockey teams in a league dominated by the US Dollar and US teams. So, from one perspective, the US Dollar buying so much in Canada was a very lucrative thing, but from another perspective, it was devastating. And this is just 2 industries (tv/film, hockey). There were obviously a lot of negative effects in other fields too (like imports).

Ironically, around the time of the Coyotes' troubles, it was near parity (US economic spiral, high oil prices). The environment in Canada in the mid '90s was not favorable for bending over backwards as far as has been done for the Coyotes. And as noted above, they did bend the rules for the Oilers to have them stay (the only WHA team they didn't help the owner pack the bags for as they shipped them to the US or further south).

I think the part about Balsillie "poisoning the well" is apt, although not towards inducing the Coyotes fanbase into a zombie-like fatalistic state towards their team. I think it poisoned the well towards any new owner-based relocation of the Coyotes. Balsillie was trying to do a hostile takeover, to buy the team and do what he wanted with it ignoring league rules & procedures, treating it as a pure commodity with no strings attached or processes to follow. It seemed like, even if there was an owner who played ball, did everything by the NHL book, it would be more difficult to sell/relocate the Coyotes that way than for another team because of Balsillie's interference. The only say on relocation will be the NHL for the Coyotes and they have been, are, and seemingly will be keeping the Coyotes in Arizona until they choose not to. No outsider is going to come in and influence this.


BTW. Lucky I copy & pasted saving this before posting or else it all would've been lost by that forced revised terms & conditions consent form. Probably should fix that from occurring.

 

[Bookie21]

Just curious..why you spend your time attacking the posters, rather than attacking any of the actual statements being posted. Is it because you cannot refute any of the statements?
3 posts in a row, that have nothing to say about the topic, gotta wonder who the real haters are?

You have it all backwards, I check in to this thread to see if there is any actual "news" to report. When I see a new post, I enter, only to read the exact same thing regurgitated over and over again by the same old posters. Not sure why this thread is active, as there has been nothing substantial to report for the last decade....the Coyotes are still in Arizona, and they will be next year, and most likely the year after....maybe a new owner, but that doesn't really bother most Coyote fans as long as the on ice product doesn't suffer.

 

[Fairview]

You have it all backwards, I check in to this thread to see if there is any actual "news" to report. When I see a new post, I enter, only to read the exact same thing regurgitated over and over again by the same old posters. Not sure why this thread is active, as there has been nothing substantial to report for the last decade....the Coyotes are still in Arizona, and they will be next year, and most likely the year after....maybe a new owner, but that doesn't really bother most Coyote fans as long as the on ice product doesn't suffer.

I was right. You have nothing to offer Not surprised though. If you think that the situation does not bear discussion that is on you, as you said you don’t really follow what is going on.
You think that nothing has happened in over a decade

 

[Mightygoose]

Understand most fans only care about the on-ice product and that's fine.

Since the team went into BK and the team as made the playoffs 3 time (10, 11 and 12). The ironic thing the after the first 2 of those appearances we're 2 of the times the team came the closest to moving. The CoG 'insurance policies) prevented those.

The only other time it came close was 2013 when that AMF was approved. A year they missed the playoffs.

So I guess there's nothing wrong with focusing of the on-ice product since history it has no correlation with the off-ice issues.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

The only other time it came close was 2013 when that AMF was approved. A year they missed the playoffs.

It's very educational (not to mention wonderful for schadenfreude) to go back and read the threads here of that night. Not so much for the content of what actually happened, after all it was just a city council vote, but to discover who reacted here and how. The best part for me was always the flash flood of crocodile tears for the citizen taxpayers of the City of Glendale - hmmm, I wonder if they survived?

It's page 73 now, I looked it up so you won't have to.