Phoenix CIII: Sue Me, Sue You Blues

[wpgallday1960]

What the hell is the difference? Detroit is in much more turmoil than Glendale is. Yet there isn't a peep about the need for more money for police officers in Detroit. I think everyone would agree it's safer to live in Glendale than Detroit, yet everyone is so concerned about the funds for police and fire in Glendale.....

For the record, I don't live in Glendale. I couldn't care less what happened to that city. I don't live there, and never will. It's personal choice on where you want to live. But the fact that this forum is so hell bent on the Coyotes moving because they don't sell out every game is ludicrous.

I have some sympathy for,your point. I think this is a maliase that is endemic across North America where local,governments build arenas for rich billionaires to house their playthings. I don't like it either but that is the current reality. However the direct funding of hockey operations is something that is worse, IMO.

 

[MNNumbers]

Thanks for all the data. (You're not called MNNumbers for nothing ) I think I made a mistake with the arena taxes and counted them twice. I grabbed the $8M number from this article:

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/glendale/2015/06/10/coyotes-glendale-arena-lease/71019238/

There she states that Glendale lost $8.1M last year and $8.7M this year but I guess she must've already deducted the arena taxes to arrive at those figures.

Do you have the exact website for Glendale's spreadsheets?

Here it is... By month, with cumulative

http://www.glendaleaz.com/finance/

The lease is here, although I am not sure this is the final copy. You can find the surcharges, the parking fees, the definition of City Shortfall in case of IA exercising their out-clause. It's all here.

http://www.glendaleaz.com/documents/ProfessionalManagementServicesArenaLeaseAgmt.pdf

And, finally, if you are interested, the proposal from SMG to run the Arena. You will find their proposal for how Glendale would pay them, with and without a hockey team.

http://www.glendaleaz.com/Clerk/documents/SMGRojoCardinalsRFPResponse.pdf

 

[kihekah19*]

You obviously don't know the area. I'll leave it at that.

We could respond to huge percentage of these posts with that!

 

[OthmarAmmann]

Since you seem to be a fan of the Jets, you of all should be on our side more than other people.

We were not the worst in the league at the gate. And if this was the NFL, our 77%+ attendance would not be an issue.

If I invented (ie stole and commercialized) DOS I wouldn't have to work.

 

[OthmarAmmann]

Detroit is bankrupt, but nobody is batting an eye at the fact that the pubic is paying for a huge portion of their new arena. Why is everyone so concerned with the COG?

Because of the absurdity that's unfolded over the past eight years, which hasn't been the case in Detroit. If Detroit was as entertaining people would pay attention more.

 

[kihekah19*]

My own feeling in the whole matter is that I like to see people..
1- make good decisions, whether it's in business, relationships or ethics
2- conduct themselves honestly

The particular situation in Glendale exists because many, many, many people have failed at these two things (and it has cost the citizens lots of $$, so there are victims). These failures have been on the part of NHL, various owners of the franchise, and many city councilmembers in Glendale.

The only ones who have done well at these are the people in Scottsdale, who did not play Ellman's game, and the councilmembers in Glendale who voted 'no,' whether they had clear analysis or not, and the fans who enjoyed the team and bought their tickets and merchandise.

Now, it appears that a few more people are going to make good decisions. I am waiting, as I have for 4 years as I have followed this saga, to be able to silently applaud such. And, if this carries through as it seems it might, I WILL silently applaud them, while feeling bad for the fans losing their team.

As an addendum to that, there is a rumor they might move immediately to Seattle. That does not seem a wise choice to me, so I will be disappointed if that happens. And, my disappointment will be tempered, because it appears the only victims there will be whoever might own the team.

Thanks for disagreeing.

The folks in Glendale are fine and no worse off than those in Scottsdale. You really should come see for yourself.

 

[OthmarAmmann]

Jets 1.0 were just fine, it was the Canada economy that moved them.

And Coyotes 1.0 has been just fine as well. The problem is, the NHL doesn't have the TV deals that the other leagues have. Phoenix is a HUGE market, with lots of transplant fans. Many of which only go to games if their team is playing, they couldn't care less about the Coyotes.

The end goal is a bigger TV contract. Bettman knows that, the owners know that. I will admit the only reason Arizona still has a team is because Glendale would pay $ to have a team, in the end when it comes time to sign a new TV deal, it's good to have the Phoenix market. It will be a black eye on the NHL if it comes time to get a new TV deal to lose both Atlanta and Phoenix(both top 15 markets).

The NHL is a business, and the end goal is money. Yes, the Coyotes moving might make more money at the gate, but realistically, the end goal is a huge US TV contract.

Yeah, NBC really focused on Coyote games this year...

 

[SunDancer]

Whooooopdi - freeeeeeakin - doooooooooooooooooo. News stories! Yet this forum didn't have 30 million different mega threads about it, and people concerned about the citizens that lived there because their tax dollars were for a professional sports team instead of police or fire fighters.

Well, of course not. Start a thread criticizing the Wings? Who would do such a thing?

 

[OthmarAmmann]

As far as disagreeing? I disagree with whatever it is that I may disagree with, just like anyone else.

Word.

 

[kihekah19*]

I have some sympathy for,your point. I think this is a maliase that is endemic across North America where local,governments build arenas for rich billionaires to house their playthings. I don't like it either but that is the current reality. However the direct funding of hockey operations is something that is worse, IMO.

Maybe if Winnipeg would do some direct funding, y'all could get your tix at a more reasonable price!

 

[MNNumbers]

The folks in Glendale are fine and no worse off than those in Scottsdale. You really should come see for yourself.

Very sorry if i was not clear. I meant the council in Scottsdale, who choose not to use tax payers money for Ellman's scheme when he would not show them the financials. This was a good decision.

The council in Glendale at the time hardly asked for such. This was not a good decision.

I have no comment on the people in general. My assumption is the population are primarily people who make good decisions in an ethical way.

Thanks.

 

[awfulwaffle]

Yeah, NBC really focused on Coyote games this year...

Why would they? We are a top 15 market with TV households. NHL already lost Atlanta. Think logically for a few minutes. The end goal is a big US TV contract. Yes, the NHL is a gate driven league now, but come negotiation time for a new TV contract, that hopefully isn't the case and these threads are a thing of the past.

 

[wpgallday1960]

Maybe if Winnipeg would do some direct funding, y'all could get your tix at a more reasonable price!

But the team might leave again!!!

 

[kihekah19*]

Very sorry if i was not clear. I meant the council in Scottsdale, who choose not to use tax payers money for Ellman's scheme when he would not show them the financials. This was a good decision.

The council in Glendale at the time hardly asked for such. This was not a good decision.

I have no comment on the people in general. My assumption is the population are primarily people who make good decisions in an ethical way.

Thanks.

Apparently I wasn't clear. The people of Glendale don't lack for anything more than other valley cities.

 

[kihekah19*]

But the team might leave again!!!

Well, we'll keep the electric bill up at the arena for 'em then!

 

[CasualFan]

Because of the absurdity that's unfolded over the past eight years, which hasn't been the case in Detroit. If Detroit was as entertaining people would pay attention more.

Give me a Fax of Dreams, Motor City, or I'm changing the channel.

 

[aqib]

It's a downtown rink, surrounded by major development, for a team that will fill the place every night and the city isn't paying someone $15M a year to operate it.

I think the tax dollars being used in Detroit are an investment....in Glendale they're more of a handout/allowance.

Also given that hockey is very popular in Detroit we know that it will bring people for sure. At the very least enough people like hockey its an amenity people enjoy.

 

[snowmobile]

All the talk about tv contracts... seattle/portland/vegas are just as big of names as phoenix so it's a moot point saying they are trying to get a big contract. No effect if they stay in the USA

 

[Ugmo]

Can't a U.S. network forgo the tiny number of eyeballs that watch the NHL in markets like Phoenix and Miami? Surely they'd be aware that almost no one is watching hockey there.

 

[awfulwaffle]

All the talk about tv contracts... seattle/portland/vegas are just as big of names as phoenix so it's a moot point saying they are trying to get a big contract. No effect if they stay in the USA

http://www.stationindex.com/tv/tv-markets

Phoenix 12, Seattle 14, Portland 22, and Vegas 42. If the NHL is looking for expansion, it makes sense to try and keep the team in Phoenix and expand to Seattle.

 

[Killion]

Can't a U.S. network forgo the tiny number of eyeballs that watch the NHL in markets like Phoenix and Miami? Surely they'd be aware that almost no one is watching hockey there.

NBC would be paying the NHL one Hell of a lot more than they are if places like Miami & Metro Phoenix tuned in. Their paying for the big markets in the Northeast & Mid-west, California. Had the NHL really worked hand in glove with Arizona from 96 on in developing the market rather than just expecting it to take through osmosis (while watching it completely unwind, just as they did in Atlanta twice, in Sunrise & elsewhere) we wouldnt be discussing any of this today & theyd be living up to their potential at the gate and on the screen. As it is with the exception of the Coyotes recent Playoff runs, your looking at 3am Infomercial numbers.

 

[Ciao]

Detroit is bankrupt, but nobody is batting an eye at the fact that the pubic is paying for a huge portion of their new arena. Why is everyone so concerned with the COG?

This kind of thing comes and goes, AW. You're quite right - governments bend over backwards and no one takes notice.

For my own part what makes this stand out is Gary Bettman lying about the NHL's involvement from the outset. You don't see that every day, and nobody likes to be lied to. The other thing is the lengths to which the NHL has gone to keep the Coyotes in Glendale, all the while finding ways to get a small city the size of Glendale assume almost all the risks and pay almost all the bills every step of the way. Detroit? Got it. Miami Marlins? Scandalous -- check. Many, many others but none seem to match this for the amount of bullying and deceit inflicted on Glendale at the hands of the NHL.

I think that's why we're uniquely seeing a lot of crocodile tears for Glendale: shock, amazement and disbelief. The same reason people can't stop watching a train wreck.

Incidentally, the City of Glendale, the Arizona coyotes and their fans have earned my personal admiration and respect over the years. Gary Bettman, the NHL and the cohort including the Ice clowns not so much -- I wouldn't wipe the dirt off my feet on them. They have lead a lot of people down the garden path and done Glendale no favour.

And I think most of us really do respect and empathize with Coyotes fans. I think we all sense that the end might be near for this franchis (again?), and if this really is the hour of reckoning we completely understand grief and bitterness. As far as I'm concerned, vent at will without fear of criticism.

Maybe this will all go away and the coyotes will survive as always. That would be great. In the meantime, the storm clouds sure do look like they're gathering and don't mind us for wanting to follow how this all turns out.

 

[Llama19]

Now I recall kdb (I believe) Pollstar rankings that showed how the GRA fared pre-bankruptcy and post-bankruptcy that showed the arena at one time was a top draw and I believe ranked ahead of America West. After the NHL took over, non-hockey bookings cratered. Now if an arena that is some 20 years older can bounce back, so can Glendale's arena.

This is the link to kdb209's original post...

 

[Killion]

....the meantime, the storm clouds sure do lookalike theyre

.... Mork?....... MorKee?... Ya there?.... Ha?.... "lookalike theyre" what?"... oh dear...... is it the narcolepsy acting up again or the scotch?

 

[enarwpg]

What the hell is the difference? Detroit is in much more turmoil than Glendale is. Yet there isn't a peep about the need for more money for police officers in Detroit. I think everyone would agree it's safer to live in Glendale than Detroit, yet everyone is so concerned about the funds for police and fire in Glendale.....

For the record, I don't live in Glendale. I couldn't care less what happened to that city. I don't live there, and never will. It's personal choice on where you want to live. But the fact that this forum is so hell bent on the Coyotes moving because they don't sell out every game is ludicrous.

So there we have it. Awful doesn't live in Glendale, couldn't care less what happens to the city but expects Glendale to subsidize his entertainment through the exorbitant AMF. And because the COG finally came to its collective senses, they're the bad guys.....