Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XVIII: Is that a pale horse in the distance?

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nye

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Mar 25, 2007
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If you can match up anywhere close to Professor Ross' professional and expert qualifications then I might give some weight to your opinion. Otherwise I am sure that you can see why I would prefer Professor Ross' expert assessment over that you are putting forth.

Even leaving aside your obvious bias on this matter.



Are you putting yourself forth as unbiased?

Also, I believe simply stating an authority is a pretty weak argument, as in no argument at all.

I too was struck by the good professor saying he could think of no other reason than protecting the Leafs and Sabres. It made him sound very much as not having any idea what he was talking about, let alone being an expert.
 

Wetcoaster

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Are you putting yourself forth as unbiased?

Also, I believe simply stating an authority is a pretty weak argument, as in no argument at all.

I too was struck by the good professor saying he could think of no other reason than protecting the Leafs and Sabres. It made him sound very much as not having any idea what he was talking about, let alone being an expert.
In this case I am as close to unbiased as you are going to get.

I am not personally invested in either side winning. The issue is of intellectual interest to me.

Given your bias it is apparent why you would want to dismiss Professor Ross.:D

In a court of law the expert's credentials are critical component of of the weight that a judge may give to the opinion.

Excellent credentials versus no credentials - hmmmm, tough one, eh?
 

nye

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Mar 25, 2007
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In this case I am as close to unbiased as you are going to get.

I am not personally invested in either side winning. The issue is of intellectual interest to me.

Given your bias it is apparent why you would want to dismiss Professor Ross.:D

In a court of law the expert's credentials are critical component of of the weight that a judge may give to the opinion.

Excellent credentials versus no credentials - hmmmm, tough one, eh?


My bias is not the only bias apparent. At least some of us are being honest with ourselves and others about sides, choosing, and whatnot.

Incidentally, intellectual interest would explain a great many of the ~19K posts by many of the people who continue to revisit these threads. Quite appropriately, nobody has a monopoly on it. :D

As for credentials, we are not in a court of law, and if we were I suspect that the expert witness would be expected to have more than a lack of knowledge about the situation and a cv to display. We are in a discussion forum and some of us are presenting arguments. The only argument you can make to answer cleduc is a fallacious one. I would be interested if you had a little more. Do you?
 

New User Name

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Are you putting yourself forth as unbiased?

Also, I believe simply stating an authority is a pretty weak argument, as in no argument at all.

I too was struck by the good professor saying he could think of no other reason than protecting the Leafs and Sabres. It made him sound very much as not having any idea what he was talking about, let alone being an expert.

That has to be the funniest thing I've read on here for a while.
 

Fugu

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You make a good point regarding Moyes getting swept up in the tide of financial conditions around him. I will concede that he may have got away with his profligate behaviour had the crash not happened.

The point about expenses, though, is not about his expenses relative to his revenues. The point is his expenses relative to those of other businesses in the same category as his (NHL franchises, and NHL franchises in growth markets).

Anyone made privy to those comparisons is going to clearly see 'how to run a business as an idiot' quite clearly in invisible ink.

Not if he was financing his expenses through the markets or banks, having relied on lower capital cost earlier on. It's pretty clear that since SOF became involved that it cost him far more to do business than some of his counterparts. He was stuck at that point-- either pay the higher cost or what? Liquidate? Sell? He was trying to sell the team for at least two years, but in the meantime had to keep financing it. Were some of the hockey operations slightly above peers? Yes, but not 2-3X. I don't think that's what did him in.
 

Jarqui

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Jul 8, 2003
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If you can match up anywhere close to Professor Ross' professional and expert qualifications then I might give some weight to your opinion. Otherwise I am sure that you can see why I would prefer Professor Ross' expert assessment over that you are putting forth.

Even leaving aside your obvious bias on this matter.

If you had been able to respond to the position I took with what Ross has actually said, I might not regard the above as turtling. For me, having a degree and experience has always come down to what I did with them.

Maybe Balsillie should have hired you and Ross. The two of you could have just showed up in Judge Baum's court and said "We agree with Balsillie. Mr. Ross has a degree and lots of antitrust experience so case closed judge!"
 

Wetcoaster

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My bias is not the only bias apparent. At least some of us are being honest with ourselves and others about sides, choosing, and whatnot.

Incidentally, intellectual interest would explain a great many of the ~19K posts by many of the people who continue to revisit these threads. Quite appropriately, nobody has a monopoly on it. :D

As for credentials, we are not in a court of law, and if we were I suspect that the expert witness would be expected to have more than a lack of knowledge about the situation and a cv to display. We are in a discussion forum and some of us are presenting arguments. The only argument you can make to answer cleduc is a fallacious one. I would be interested if you had a little more. Do you?
While we may not be in court of law, some posters are trying to make what amounts to expert legal opinion arguments. Credentials would seem to be critical particularly when a poster claims that the legal expert's opinion should be disregarded.

There are two opinions being offered. I happen to accept the one from the legal expert with the superior credentials. YMMV.

I believe that Professor Ross has solid basis for his opinion. You do not.
 

Wetcoaster

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If you had been able to respond to the position I took with what Ross has actually said, I might not regard the above as turtling. For me, having a degree and experience has always come down to what I did with them.

Maybe Balsillie should have hired you and Ross. The two of you could have just showed up in Judge Baum's court and said "We agree with Balsillie. Mr. Ross has a degree and lots of antitrust experience so case closed judge!"
You have an opinion.

Professor Ross has an opinion. I find his opinion persuasive. YMMV.

Professor Ross seems to have done a quite a bit with his law degree.
 

Crazy_Ike

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Mar 29, 2005
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Which only proves once you have poured hundreds of millions of dollars into a business that is clearly not going to turn around, he made a business decision. He attempted to sell to Balsillie who it appears is the only outside bidder willing to buy.

That is an interpretation, not proving what I said isn't a fact. That Moyes stopped paying bills and the league had to step in to make up for it is a fact.

At the time Balsillie was yet to be approved. Since he had already been approved previously, there would seem to be good grounds to believe he would be approved again. If putting the team into bankruptcy was an illegal act why did the NHL not get the judge to throw out the case on that grounds? Moyes did what he was legally permitted to do. Moyes view was it was the only way to keep the NHL from selling him down the river.

This is an interpretation, not proving what I said isn't a fact. Balsillie wasn't approved and Moyes conspired (yes, the proper term, since their emails were pretty explicit in making sure the league didn't find out) to sell the team to him without permission from the league. That is a fact.

And that would be a surprise exactly why?

Who said anything about surprises? Is what I said a fact or not? Did Moyes engage in actions that would have a chilling effect on any other bid, yes or no?

What charges are pending against Moyes? If you mean contempt of court that has already been taken on the chin by his legal team.

Oh, it's not stopping there. Glendale will see to that. In any event, you seem to be agreeing that this one is a fact, Moyes has been charged with contempt of court.

According to Forbes Magazine in 2006-07 Phoenix gained in value. These teams lost in value that year - Philadelphia, Colorado and St. Louis.

In 2005-06 Forbes noted Dallas Philadelphia, Colorado, San Jose, NYI all ost value. Phoenix gained value.

In 2004 Forbes noted Dallas, Chicago, Minnesota, St. Louis Columbus, New Jersey, Washington, Anaheim, Atlanta, Pittsburgh and Carolina all dropped in value. Phoenix gained in value.

I guess it depends whose figures you believe? Again a rhetorical question.

I'm using the same figures as you. I notice you didn't use 2008. Why's that? Because every team gained value except Phoenix?

Once you hit the years around the lockout there are other factors in play. However, in 2008 Forbes noted Phoenix was the only team that did not gain in value. A fact.

So again, I ask you, what facts did I get wrong?


As for Ross, he may have the education but he is letting a severe bias interfere with his opinion. He is clearly antagonistic towards the league's ownership. If his opinion is to be taken as fact, why did the CCB disagree with him?

I'm afraid Ross sounds more like a "witness for the defense" than an objective viewer, and I don't think anyone with an objective view of the situation could see his comments any other way. For example, has he ever been an "expert" witness or other participant where he wasn't on the "antitrust" side? Is he, in fact, inclined to judge anything that even has a hint of being relevant to anti-trust in favor of the offending (in his view) business?

Given Ross has been fanatically pro-Balsillie in this affair makes the question, as you are fond of saying, rhetorical.
 
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LadyStanley

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Sep 22, 2004
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SJ first. Generally high tech, higher education and higher income levels. Seems in line with the general NHL fan profile, including a much larger number of female fans than other sports (thus female hockey fans are the smartest of all..).

I and the other female fans of the Sharks appreciate such sentiment. (Even if there isn't a single woman exec in the organization, ticket sales and HR excepted. Silicon Valley types generally like to think about crashing through glass ceilings.)


http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=290806

Asst. Ulf Samuelsson is taking on the duties now. TGO may or may not be returning to the bench (and won't at least until there's a new owner/deal in place).
 

SJeasy

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Feb 3, 2005
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Do you have any evidence to support this statement. I would actually say that franchises that take 30 years to anchor itself in a community are the exception.
I have been looking for the links. Not found yet. More than one quote that I have read over time and they were on the web. They were owner interviews and opinions, not stats. Also personal observation. From casual observation, the major population centers like NY and LA are quicker. Also, competitive success hastens acceptance (again observation).
 

kdb209

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Jan 26, 2005
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Because TWO NHL owners loaned him money so he could get the loans from the bank? Doesn't that count? They voted to allow him in knowing what he did.

Uhh - nope.

Neither AEG nor Liepold disclosed the loans to the league - so the BoG was NOT aware of the loans at the time. And neither AEG nor Liepold were aware of any of his fraudulent activities - they were duped by the same forged brokerage statements as everyone else.
 

bbud

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Uhh - nope.

Neither AEG nor Liepold disclosed the loans to the league - so the BoG was NOT aware of the loans at the time. And neither AEG nor Liepold were aware of any of his fraudulent activities - they were duped by the same forged brokerage statements as everyone else.

I still have question regarding how a guy like Boots who was allready running into issues got past those guys it dose not say much for the AEG guy and GB letting him head expansion .
 

SJeasy

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Feb 3, 2005
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Not if he was financing his expenses through the markets or banks, having relied on lower capital cost earlier on. It's pretty clear that since SOF became involved that it cost him far more to do business than some of his counterparts. He was stuck at that point-- either pay the higher cost or what? Liquidate? Sell? He was trying to sell the team for at least two years, but in the meantime had to keep financing it. Were some of the hockey operations slightly above peers? Yes, but not 2-3X. I don't think that's what did him in.
I am quoting you, but this is for anyone else with better research skills than mine. Swift was taken private so public financial statements aren't out there. However, Saint Acquisition Corp., a Moyes entity, issued $2.4bil in bonds to take Swift private. The interest rates on the bonds indicated they were below investment grade. The latest article found which was a while back noted Moody's had dropped their rating to Caa. I found a statement on a fund which held these bonds where it looked like they had lost value.
 

New User Name

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I still have question regarding how a guy like Boots who was allready running into issues got past those guys it dose not say much for the AEG guy and GB letting him head expansion .

We all know if it's between KC and Hamilton (or any Canadian city) getting a franchise, it's KC.

Why the hell this AEG guy is involved is beyond me.
Obvious conflict of interest.
Won't even mention the conflict of interest with Garys half brother in Vegas. (hello awards show)
Until such time the Canadian owners get balls, Bettman will do what he's been doing.

PS: I'm with you bbud, all this crap has soured me and many I know on the NHL.
But that's okay, Gary's growing the game.

By the way, some on here have suggested that Moyes betrayed the NHL.
For what it's worth (not too much to most here) I feel betrayed by the NHL, especially by the Canadian owners who are lap dogs to Gary.
 
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Jeremy2020

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Dec 27, 2005
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I've thought for a long time that the best case scenario for a team relocating to Hamilton would be the Buffalo Sabres. It's only a 100 km move, so it wouldn't be too hard for Sabres fans in Buffalo to go see games. No divisional realignment necessary. And of course it negates the argument of killing the Buffalo franchise.

This also kills the Buffalo TV market. How do you regain that for the NHL?

I'm from Buffalo and live in Austin. There's a reason Austin isn't on the radar for a major sports team. The Icebats couldn't afford to keep playing. Sure the Stars are moving a farm team here, but we'll see how that goes. The arena is way out leander way a lovely hour+ long traffic jam away from the city itself.

Buffalo is making money. It's profitable. Why would you move a profitable team that's making money? Why would you move a team into direct competition into a market you know can't support two teams. There's no *reason* to move the Buffalo franchise to Hamilton.

You might want to spend some more time on thinking about it.
 

LadyStanley

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Sep 22, 2004
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http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/story/2009/09/12/sp-coyotes-creditors.html?ref=rss
CBC on creditors backing NHL bid


http://www.fromtherink.com/2009/9/12/1026908/bids-and-betrayal-coyotes-now-in
Mirtle on the waiting for a ruling


http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL/Phoenix/2009/09/12/10856796-sun.html?cid=rsssportsslam! hockey
Sun Media looks at who will be coaching with TGO's contract dispute
The NHL said it's in "delicate negotiations" with Gretzky for a new contract, likely at a dramatically reduced rate from the reported $8 million US he has been making under bankrupt owner Jerry Moyes.


http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL/Phoenix/2009/09/12/10858176-sun.html?cid=rsssportsslam! hockey
Balsillie taking the heat
"I really have one dream here and that is to bring a hockey team to Southern Ontario," a stoic Balsillie said on the courtroom steps after two-day court auction of the beleaguered Coyotes ended without a resolution.
 

billy blaze

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May 31, 2009
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Buffalo is making money. It's profitable. Why would you move a profitable team that's making money? Why would you move a team into direct competition into a market you know can't support two teams. There's no *reason* to move the Buffalo franchise to Hamilton..

every expert called to the stand in this case would like to dispute this with you
 

New User Name

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Jan 2, 2008
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This also kills the Buffalo TV market. How do you regain that for the NHL?

I'm from Buffalo and live in Austin. There's a reason Austin isn't on the radar for a major sports team. The Icebats couldn't afford to keep playing. Sure the Stars are moving a farm team here, but we'll see how that goes. The arena is way out leander way a lovely hour+ long traffic jam away from the city itself.

Buffalo is making money. It's profitable. Why would you move a profitable team that's making money? Why would you move a team into direct competition into a market you know can't support two teams. There's no *reason* to move the Buffalo franchise to Hamilton.

You might want to spend some more time on thinking about it.

None of the 3 networks cover Sabre games. Is there a cable company that does?
I agree with you on Buffalo not relocating.
Sabre fans are probably the best in the USA (IMO) Philly fans give them a run for that though.

I also think a team in Hamilton would help the Sabres.....I know I'm a minority in that thinking.
 

billy blaze

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May 31, 2009
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Uhh - nope.

Neither AEG nor Liepold disclosed the loans to the league - so the BoG was NOT aware of the loans at the time. And neither AEG nor Liepold were aware of any of his fraudulent activities - they were duped by the same forged brokerage statements as everyone else.

no but those two teams have reps on executive committee who should have disclosed
 

MayDay

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Oct 21, 2005
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This also kills the Buffalo TV market. How do you regain that for the NHL?

I'm from Buffalo and live in Austin. There's a reason Austin isn't on the radar for a major sports team. The Icebats couldn't afford to keep playing. Sure the Stars are moving a farm team here, but we'll see how that goes. The arena is way out leander way a lovely hour+ long traffic jam away from the city itself.

Buffalo is making money. It's profitable. Why would you move a profitable team that's making money? Why would you move a team into direct competition into a market you know can't support two teams. There's no *reason* to move the Buffalo franchise to Hamilton.

You might want to spend some more time on thinking about it.

That's a good point about Buffalo being the NHL's best television market in the US, in terms of ratings. I'm sure that's not something the NHL would want to easily give up, given how mightily they struggle to achieve even meager TV ratings in many places.

One thing that I think people don't understand, who argue that moving Buffalo sports franchises just across the border (to Toronto, Hamilton, or wherever) would allow the teams to keep their existing American fanbase - no, it wouldn't.

Logistically, yes, those fans could still attend a lot of games if the Sabres or Bills moved to Canada. But they wouldn't. You have no idea of the capacity for Bitterness, and the ability to hold long-term grudges, of Buffalo sports fans. The more likely scenario is that the vast majority of Buffalo area fans would go out of their way to avoid giving those franchises any more money or support, if they ever moved. There would be an incredible feeling of betrayal, that would most likely last for decades.
 

bbud

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Sep 10, 2008
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We all know if it's between KC and Hamilton (or any Canadian city) getting a franchise, it's KC.

Why the hell this AEG guy is involved is beyond me.
Obvious conflict of interest.
Won't even mention the conflict of interest with Garys half brother in Vegas. (hello awards show)
Until such time the Canadian owners get balls, Bettman will do what he's been doing.

PS: I'm with you bbud, all this crap has soured me and many I know on the NHL.
But that's okay, Gary's growing the game.

By the way, some on here have suggested that Moyes betrayed the NHL.
For what it's worth (not too much to most here) I feel betrayed by the NHL, especially by the Canadian owners who are lap dogs to Gary.

Its a conflict no doubt how can he be involved in AEG and then the leader to shoot down JB that was what really made the NHL look bush league , any posters can say what they like it stunk or cronyism all the way .
And i do think how Gb was set to give Moyes 0 or as little as they can get away with is going to make a lot of NHL owners look at what is going on , i have trouble beleiving they all agree with what they see .
Moyes also regardless of how he is regarded came in with his money to stabilize losses which he did till he owned them by coverring losses he was not the bad guy some like to say, did he hit the wall and want his money back , sure so would i and that is not wrong.
The whole issue sends a chilling message to future NHL owners in waiting , be ready to bend over fo Gb to kick your ass and say thanks for the experience and keep my cash , great plan lol.
 

Weary

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Jul 1, 2003
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Uhh - nope.

Neither AEG nor Liepold disclosed the loans to the league - so the BoG was NOT aware of the loans at the time. And neither AEG nor Liepold were aware of any of his fraudulent activities - they were duped by the same forged brokerage statements as everyone else.
Wasn't AEG on the committee that reviewed the application? If so, shouldn't AEG have noticed that their own loan wasn't disclosed?
 
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