PGT - Sens 5, Pens 0 (Dupuis out, War lost)

[Ogrezilla]

If I'm Ottawa, I LOVE that hit. Basically, it gave them all the wings they needed to defeat us last night. From a league standpoint, I have no issue with the hit. Legal, clean, mean and perfect really.

From OUR perspective, I f&^%in' hated the hit, and the aftermath (lack of response). Ottawa just showed the rest of the NHL how to beat the Penguins. Physically go after us, there will never be enough retribution from our side, do whatever you want really.

It's sad, but this will be our downfall. If we don't respond, it's going to happen over and over and over again.

You'd think that a team with 11 guys on IR would figure this ***** out eventually.

are you implying that if we responded to these situations differently we wouldn't have the same guys on IR?

 

[WhatsaMaatta]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying my main problem is. They need to be more physical in general. Sill, Bortuzzo, Despres and Engelland will help with that if they're playing; they need to make the team more physical. They have the personnel to do it, they just won't.

It's not just about the stars, it's about a team need. It's a physical league, this team needs to do that too; they sure as hell don't have enough skill throughout the roster to go the other route. They also have the damn luxury of the physical players they have being an improvement on the usual scraps. It's not the toughest lineup ever, but it's an improvement and it's not about having the toughest lineup ever.

Kunitz - Crosby - Bennett
Megna - Malkin - Neal
Jokinen - Sutter - Dupuis
Sill - Vitale - Engelland
Zolnierczyk

Scuderi - Letang
Despres - Martin
Maatta - Bortuzzo

* It's not an indictment of Niskanen, just the point of the value and need for this team to be more physical and tougher to play against. You could argue Orpik, but he's not consistently tough and he's been crap this season..

Niskanen has been very good this year, but like you said, he just isn't a need. And Bortuzzo really is more effective than Orpik in the areas we need him to be. I agree with your D lines, but our forward depth still looks awful. Megna should not touch the top two lines yet, and we still don't really know what we have with Bennett. If we can move Orpik and/or Niskanen, we can create a package that brings back a couple physical forwards.

Kunitz Crosby Dupuis
McGinn Malkin Neal
Bennett Sutter Brouwer
Sill Vitale Adams

Scuderi Letang
Despres Martin
Maatta Bortuzzo

Is realistic and actually a pretty solid improvement over what Bylsma is icing when healthy.

 

[Coastal Kev]

are you implying that if we responded to these situations differently we wouldn't have the same guys on IR?

If I ran the team rather than Shero, Sid would have had a wing on his line who would have jumped Methot immediately and pounded his face. Then my third and fourth lines would have been rolled out, and they would be stacked with bruisers, and the butt pounding on any Sens skilled player would have commenced. Pens are soft and they are not capable of protecting their players.

 

[Ogrezilla]

If I ran the team rather than Shero, Sid would have had a wing on his line who would have jumped Methot immediately and pounded his face. Then my third and fourth lines would have been rolled out, and they would be stacked with bruisers, and the butt pounding on any Sens skilled player would have commenced. Pens are soft and they are not capable of protecting their players.

And Dupuis would still be injured. None of our injuries would have been prevented by having the team that you want. You could have had Goddard carrying a Glock on Sid's other wing and Dupuis would have still been hurt.

I'm not saying having a tougher team wouldn't be good. I'm not saying we aren't soft. I'm saying it has nothing to do with our current injury situation.

 

[NMK11]

If I ran the team rather than Shero, Sid would have had a wing on his line who would have jumped Methot immediately and pounded his face. Then my third and fourth lines would have been rolled out, and they would be stacked with bruisers, and the butt pounding on any Sens skilled player would have commenced. Pens are soft and they are not capable of protecting their players.

Soooo kinda what Thornton did? Yes, excessive reactions to legal hits is exactly what we need more of.

Get out of here with this stuff. No team has ever been dissuaded from playing physical because someone got jumped.

 

[WhatsaMaatta]

If I ran the team rather than Shero, Sid would have had a wing on his line who would have jumped Methot immediately and pounded his face. Then my third and fourth lines would have been rolled out, and they would be stacked with bruisers, and the butt pounding on any Sens skilled player would have commenced. Pens are soft and they are not capable of protecting their players.

So basically you want Scott Thornton? The Methot hit was clean. No need to respond with anything other than a few nice clean hits from our side.

 

[Candyman]

Does Ronald Petrovicky still play? KCP?

 

[Coastal Kev]

And Dupuis would still be injured. None of our injuries would have been prevented by having the team that you want. You could have had Goddard carrying a Glock on Sid's other wing and Dupuis would have still been hurt.

I'm not saying having a tougher team wouldn't be good. I'm not saying we aren't soft. I'm saying it has nothing to do with our current injury situation.

I am not talking about a team of Godards. I am talking about physical guys with a nasty disposition that can skate. Most goals are scored today by throwing the puck to the net and wacking away, so these players would help in this area as well. And I also believe that Methot isn't making that hit against my team because he will know what response will be coming. Chris Neal took two crazy runs at Pens players after that hit that luckily both missed. I'm sorry, but you can't allow a guy like Neal to run around and attempt to injure your players without a response. There isn't anything more demoralizing to a team than being bullied. Last night the Sens bullied the Pens in the first two periods and the result was a 5-0 loss.

 

[KIRK]

Well.... I guess one can say that this was bound to happen. I mean our lineup (no hyperbole here either) seriously resembles an AHL lineup more so than an NHL lineup... But the lack of effort was disturbing. It was like that game awhile ago against the Rangers where they scored and we gave up. About 5 minutes after they scored, I saw what was going on and thought "I've seen this movie before" and checked the boxscore only go find out I was right.

I thought the Methot hit was a bit iffy but legal by todays standards. Its those hits that all players hate. It is why one of my all time favorite Penguins (Darius Kasparitis) was so hated around the league.
My thought is this. No proof to back it up, just a hypothesis. Two guys fought Ballard the other night over hits just like these. Meanwhile the Penguins are deep in this Orpik/Thornton crap and controversy over whether Orpik should have to answer the bell or not for a clean hit. I wonder if they were told after the Minny game to not fight after clean hits? Like an image type thing...Or maybe they didnt like Neal fighting at all.
Yes...I know. Conspiracy theorists unite!
One thing I do know is that this team has gone WAY WAY WAY to overboard when it comes to showing how passive and in control of their emotions they are. They took so much heat after the Flyers series for losing their cool and it seems that they now want to prove the point that this is not the case. That teams can take all sorts of cheap shots and they wont flinch...or be drawn into it.
And that is just as egregious in my opinion.
And teams are taking some huge huge cheap shots. They hope to get Sid and Malkin off their game...and everyone is stahing ultra passive.
I can guarantee that is an order from above. That is an order from the staff.
Our star players take more abuse than any of the other teams star players and our team allows it to happen. Perhaps in hopes that if they don't respond then other teams will eventually stop. Well...they wont.
Its embarrassing the amount of cheap shots Crosby and Malkin take. Its embarrassing how the team lets it happen.
And like Capp, I am not advocating goonery. But to have a passive, ignoring type response...a robotic passionless response is a joke. Trying to prove a point at our stars expense is wreckless and irresponsible.
You dont have to completely ignore the damn problem or be a robot to show that your emotions are in check. Or to show that you aren't frustrated. You can still have a response.

And listen. Our guys give some cheap shots too. I get that...and guess what else. Other teams respond. They dont passively skate away as if nothing happened. Thornton went about it like a complete idiot. Thats not the way to handle it. But there are tons of other things you can do than have everybody on the team act as if they are competing with eachother for the Lady Byng trophy.
Im embarrassed by this team in that regard and embarrassed by the decisions from staff or higher up that allows this crap to happen.

And the league itself needs to be held responsible. They have allowed this to turn into a slippery slope type of a problem to where people are going to be unnecessarily hurt. The stickwork, slewfoots, kneeing, scrums, gloved punches etc etc are becoming far to common.

Im not calling for the p***yfication (I think that I made up that word. Its not in my spell check) of the sport and I am an advocate of fighting in the sport. But the cheap weasel stuff isn't really playing hard or being tough. It is the little weasel type stuff that the league allows that needs to be handled. Players are celebrated for crossing the line. For pissing others off. Well thats awesome. If its in the confines of the rules then great. Talk smack all you want. But all of this other crap that they allow is stupid. Goading someone into a penalty is fine ut if hour doing something which is illegal in the first place then it needs to be called. A slash is a slash is a slash and yet it is only called every so often. There is zero consistency.
And that is the problem. The league rules are a joke and every player knows it.
They know that if the league says they are cracking down on obstruction (for arguments sake) then in the first month of the season there will be a million power plays. And the players will stop and the league will celebrate the fact that the players got the message and then a month and a half later it is back to status quo. Just as much obstruction as before andthe league wont utter a word. And noone steps up and says,"Hold on a minute. This didn't work. It didn't solve anything".
I watch an embarrassing amount of hockey. There was a play tonight in the Leafs v Rangers game where Talbot froze the puck for a good two seconds with the ref standing right there watching. And The Leafs Clarkson whacked away at his hands until the puck came free of course and came loose and trickled in the net. This happened with under a minhte and the Rangers nursing a one goal lead. And we all know what that means. So do the players. If your team is behind with a minute left then youre allowed to get away with murder while the team winning simply has to breathe on the opposition and they'll get a penalty. It is a joke. There is no sport which has more inconsistencies in officiating than this sport. And it ain't even close.
So yeah, sorry for the rant. I got worked up thinking about our orginization having easily the best player in an entire generation and arguably the second best getting cheap shotted left and right and not only NOT protecting them but instructing them to turn the other cheek. Take the high road. We have a family atmosphere to protect. We have an image to protect.
No Pittsbugh Penguins staff and management. You actually have players to protect. Every other team manages to do it better than you do. Get your priorities straight and stop worrying about the image you want your team to have at the expense of two players whom you are incredibly fortunate to have. Players who make your franchise what it is.
Dang Im pissed.
Capp, bring over the bunt cake.
Jiggy, bring the beer and as you know, I'll take care of the women. Kirk can come if he is on his best behavior. We dont want a rehash of the Helsinki incident of 1925. I think we all remember how that turned out (bonus points for the movie).

1. Rant =

2. Watching the Pens last night, I felt like I was watching a Cher video.

3. 1919, not 1925. :

4. Best behavior, my ***.

I'm not coming if Kirk is coming.

I gots my street cred to protect.

What street cred?

 

[WhatsaMaatta]

I am not talking about a team of Godards. I am talking about physical guys with a nasty disposition that can skate. Most goals are scored today by throwing the puck to the net and wacking away, so these players would help in this area as well. And I also believe that Methot isn't making that hit against my team because he will know what response will be coming. Chris Neal took two crazy runs at Pens players after that hit that luckily both missed. I'm sorry, but you can't allow a guy like Neal to run around and attempt to injure your players without a response. There isn't anything more demoralizing to a team than being bullied. Last night the Sens bullied the Pens in the first two periods and the result was a 5-0 loss.

Niel has pulled that **** his entire career. One guy threatening to get in a fight with him isn't going to change anything. The Pens beat the Senators handily in the playoffs last year, so I'd hesitate to put too much stock into last night's loss.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I am not talking about a team of Godards. I am talking about physical guys with a nasty disposition that can skate. Most goals are scored today by throwing the puck to the net and wacking away, so these players would help in this area as well. And I also believe that Methot isn't making that hit against my team because he will know what response will be coming. Chris Neal took two crazy runs at Pens players after that hit that luckily both missed. I'm sorry, but you can't allow a guy like Neal to run around and attempt to injure your players without a response. There isn't anything more demoralizing to a team than being bullied. Last night the Sens bullied the Pens in the first two periods and the result was a 5-0 loss.

ok. I don't disagree with any of this. My initial point was in response to a guy that seemed to be implying that our injury situation could be prevented with a team of guys like you think we should have. Despite me thinking we could use more guys like that, I do not think it would do anything at all to prevent injuries. Had we responded by beating the living hell out of their entire team, Dupuis would still be hurt. Same thing about every other injury we have.

So again, I'm not disagreeing with you. You are just having the wrong conversation here.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Just read your post Kirk, well done sir.

 

[KIRK]

If I'm Ottawa, I LOVE that hit. Basically, it gave them all the wings they needed to defeat us last night. From a league standpoint, I have no issue with the hit. Legal, clean, mean and perfect really.

From OUR perspective, I f&^%in' hated the hit, and the aftermath (lack of response). Ottawa just showed the rest of the NHL how to beat the Penguins. Physically go after us, there will never be enough retribution from our side, do whatever you want really.

It's sad, but this will be our downfall. If we don't respond, it's going to happen over and over and over again.

You'd think that a team with 11 guys on IR would figure this ***** out eventually.

Remember the days when we had predatory guys who proactively went after the other team's top players in a way that had the other team's predators trying to kill them instead of Sid and Geno.

I miss those days. Too bad we've got a team constructed to reflect the way ownership, management, and the coaches want the NHL to be instead of the way the NHL is.

 

[JTG]

 

[Coastal Kev]

ok. I don't disagree with any of this. My initial point was in response to a guy that seemed to be implying that our injury situation could be prevented with a team of guys like you think we should have. Despite me thinking we could use more guys like that, I do not think it would do anything at all to prevent injuries. Had we responded by beating the living hell out of their entire team, Dupuis would still be hurt. Same thing about every other injury we have.

So again, I'm not disagreeing with you. You are just having the wrong conversation here.

I see your point and I agree with you about the injuries. I'm just frustrated with the makeup of this team. The NHL isn't going to protect our stars so we are left with two options. Complete passive team that hopes the other team feels guilty about bulling us or lets get some nasty ***** that respond to fire with nuclear.

 

[KIRK]

I see your point and I agree with you about the injuries. I'm just frustrated with the makeup of this team. The NHL isn't going to protect our stars so we are left with two options. Complete passive team that hopes the other team feels guilty about bulling us or lets get some nasty ***** that respond to fire with nuclear.

Actually, we need to be proactive. Guys like Ruutu were predators out there. They started ****. And, the other team would be so obsessed with finishing it with HIM that they'd have less time to start with Sid and Geno.

THAT is what the Pens need. Not just the guys who will knock your block off but also the guys who know you never bring a knife to a gun fight.

 

[JTG]

The Penguins need players willing to play a dumbed down, boring style of hockey if need be. If a team wants to trap, we need the guys who will be willing to dump a puck in deep and just start taking runs at defensemen. That's what this team needs more than anything. Just players who have a completely different mindset.

 

[KIRK]

The Penguins need players willing to play a dumbed down, boring style of hockey if need be. If a team wants to trap, we need the guys who will be willing to dump a puck in deep and just start taking runs at defensemen. That's what this team needs more than anything. Just players who have a completely different mindset.

Yes, exactly, because the only teams that can have predatory type guys like Ruutu or Neil are dump and chase teams.

Again, on behalf of the lesser posters here, I thank you for explaining things to us.

 

[JTG]

Yes, exactly, because the only teams that can have predatory type guys like Ruutu or Neil are dump and chase teams.

Again, on behalf of the lesser posters here, I thank you for explaining things to us.

What...the **** are you talking about?

 

[KIRK]

What...the **** are you talking about?

I'm questioning someone who thinks the Pens need guys who will play dumbed down dump and chase hockey and bang the **** out of someone. I think he's one of your other personalities with short term memory issues.

EDIT: It is possible, I will admit, that he just suffers from a lack of ability to make a concise point in the English language coherently. But, whatever . . . cheers!

 

[Ogrezilla]

I'm questioning someone who thinks the Pens need guys who will play dumbed down dump and chase hockey and bang the **** out of someone. I think he's one of your other personalities with short term memory issues.

EDIT: It is possible, I will admit, that he just suffers from a lack of ability to make a concise point in the English language coherently. But, whatever . . . cheers!

You seem to have become overly hostile for pretty much no reason.

 

[JTG]

I'm mocking someone who thinks the Pens need guys who will play dumbed down dump and chase hockey and bang the **** out of someone. I think he's one of your other personalities with short term memory issues.

Oh! Sick burn, Kirk!

Pens don't need guys to play dumbed down hockey. I said they need guys willing to play dumbed down hockey when the situation calls for it, as in when Boston starts trapping again, we aren't constantly trying to skate right through the middle of it, because that's just the mindset of our group of guys. We have no player willing to dump a puck in and run guys over like a Mike Rupp, Adam Hall, Aaron Asham, Max Talbot.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I'm questioning someone who thinks the Pens need guys who will play dumbed down dump and chase hockey and bang the **** out of someone. I think he's one of your other personalities with short term memory issues.

EDIT: It is possible, I will admit, that he just suffers from a lack of ability to make a concise point in the English language coherently. But, whatever . . . cheers!

We actually could use a Martin or a Clifford on the 3rd or 4th line, someone that hits and punishes people, not just hits for the sake of hitting to rack up hit totals like Glass does, although I have been a big glass defender here. But yes, back to you being ornery as hell.

 

[KIRK]

it was stupid in the other thread too.

FYI, this one irked me. Doesn't look like I was alone.

You aren't alone in thinking like this, but does that make the line of thinking correct? And you have your opinions. I think most of them lack any sort of substance...but they are yours.



It's the same stuff...over, and over again. There isn't anything intelligent happening. It's superficial stuff, and a lot of the ***** that occurs are people complaining and not even knowing what they are complaining about, or the deeper issue.

Do I want Pascal Dupuis on the 1st line? No. Can I recognize why he is? Yes. Some people here cannot. When I started reading here in 2004, people would post about Dupuis being on a top line and say, "I don't like Dupuis on the first line, and here is X, Y, and Z, but he fits there right now because X, Y, Z."

This board has reached the point where numerous posters post the exact same 3 points every single game, all game long. And they are points that ARE trivial. People will literally blame Dupuis for anything. I have seen the entire lack of offense in the Boston series put directly on him, and everyone else is absolved of any sort of blame. I have seen people pin an entire playoff series on Bylsma, and completely negate the fact that his players are making insanely stupid plays that he has no control over. I have seen people blame Fleury when he was completely hung out to dry.

I guess the main point of what I'm saying is currently, I believe the fan base has a hard time seeing the forest through the trees. They see things that are right in front of them, but aside from what is right in front of them they are clueless.

Being lectured by 1/2 of the tag team champions of cherrypicking wasn't even the annoying part. It was the arrogant assumption that people cannot differentiate between why Dupuis is on the first line and whether Dupuis should be on the first line, as if the ferocity of the argument against the latter someone clouds one's ability to see the former. I mean ****, I'll argue up and down the street with RRP like we're a couple of two year olds, and even I'm not that transparently arrogant.

 

[KIRK]

We actually could use a Martin or a Clifford on the 3rd or 4th line, someone that hits and punishes people, not just hits for the sake of hitting to rack up hit totals like Glass does, although I have been a big glass defender here. But yes, back to you being ornery as hell.

Good point. I wish that I'd thought of it like 20 minutes ago:

Actually, we need to be proactive. Guys like Ruutu were predators out there. They started ****. And, the other team would be so obsessed with finishing it with HIM that they'd have less time to start with Sid and Geno.

THAT is what the Pens need. Not just the guys who will knock your block off but also the guys who know you never bring a knife to a gun fight.

Oh wait . . .

FYI, my objection was to the idea that you needed to dumb down the style of play for guys like that. Every team is going to dump at times, but I see teams like Detroit in the 90's, even the Pens in 2009 or the Hawks cup teams as having the types this team needs but not being primarily dump and chase teams.