Speculation: Perhaps Shanny and Dubas already know this team is not in "Cup Contention"

[Leaf Fans]

If the Leafs' won the cup this year Matthews would be around 22 years 9 months. Marner would be 23, Nylander 24, Rielly 26 and Tavares 29. They are not as young as you are letting on.

As to how many cores that are that young have won the cup? The three big cup winners of the past decade are Pittsburgh, Chicago and LA who won 8 cups over the past 11 years.

Crosby was 21, Letang and Malkin 22 and Fleury 24 when they won their first cup. They had gone to the finals the year before.

Kane was 21, Toews had just turned 22 and Keith was 26 (and most of the team was younger than him) when they won their first cup. They had made it to the third round the year before.

Doughty was 22 and Kopitar was 24 when they won their first cup.

The problems that the Leafs' have this season are many but they have nothing to do with their age.

How old was Ovi?

 

[Xanner]

Pittsburgh and Chicago core both won Cups at earlier stages than Leafs. This year was
the Leafs window. It’s already closed.

The leafs window's closed, They cannot win cups, its over, lmao, they had to win it before Matthews, Marner and Nylander turned 22-23.

Only in Toronto.

 

[Xanner]

The Leafs' have the 19th best record during the 2019 calendar year so far. The Leafs were a better team when they were rookies than they have been over the past 10 months. If this team doesn't turn it around quickly, trades will be made, including some of the core - as should be the case. The truth is this core has achieved nothing and are dramatically underperforming what they should be capable of. People can whine that it is because they are young - but Marner is getting paid 16M this season, Matthews and Tavares are getting 15.9M each and Nylander is getting 9M. All 4 have put in embarrassing performances considering their compensation.

I expect these young players be given every opportunity to continue to develop before they get traded away, inconsistencies are part of the process, the leafs trading away young players due to impatience should be avoided at all costs.

 

[thewave]

The Barrie, Muzzin and Marleau moves would suggest otherwise.

This was his best efforts this is the cup team.

 

[ShaneFalco]

I expect these young players be given every opportunity to continue to develop before they get traded away, inconsistencies are part of the process, the leafs trading away young players due to impatience should be avoided at all costs.

This is so true

 

[BrannigansLaw]

Practically every move they’ve made would suggest otherwise so no, they absolutely think this team is a contender

 

[biotk]

How old was Ovi?

What does this have to do with anything? The question was - which young cores have won - under the assumption that none have - and 8 of the past 11 cup winners were won by either Pittsburgh, LA or Chicago which had young cores when they started winning.

Does that mean that players can't win the cup for the first time later on? No. Never said it did. Guess what, lots of great players never win the cup at all. And this includes - both in the case of players who didn't win until later on, and in the case of players who never won at all - a whole lot of stars who busted their asses and gave everything they had - throughout their careers. The Leafs' young players have stopped putting in even minimal effort.

 

[biotk]

I expect these young players be given every opportunity to continue to develop before they get traded away, inconsistencies are part of the process, the leafs trading away young players due to impatience should be avoided at all costs.

I doubt it. Their cap hits are too high to allow the team to build around them which is a high price to pay for players who don't seem to care who they are playing for.

 

[Leaf Fans]

What does this have to do with anything? The question was - which young cores have won - under the assumption that none have - and 8 of the past 11 cup winners were won by either Pittsburgh, LA or Chicago which had young cores when they started winning.

Does that mean that players can't win the cup for the first time later on? No. Never said it did. Guess what, lots of great players never win the cup at all. And this includes - both in the case of players who didn't win until later on, and in the case of players who never won at all - a whole lot of stars who busted their asses and gave everything they had - throughout their careers. The Leafs' young players have stopped putting in even minimal effort.

It has to do with wanting to know how old was Ovi when he won his cup.

 

[OVO16]

Pretty stupid thread with all due respect.

Leafs management definitely thought this was a cup contending team going into the season, and it was evident with all the moves they've made.

But what's happening is that Dubas is clearly getting taught a lesson right now in proper team construction to win the cup.

His and Babcock's philosophy for the playoffs wont cut it

 

[Stephen]

In the long term, I think someone like Marner could go and help us rebalance the cap and roster, but in the short term if things go awry, we can always just trade Barrie, Ceci and Muzzin at the deadline and accumulate picks and prospects to help build a war chest to get missing pieces or fuel a mini retool. There's a lot of value on the roster that the team just needs to know how to spend in order to mold the program properly. I'm not worried about the long term health of the franchise but I think the season may not be what we wanted.

Also. When Babcock kept declaring this is "our year" and referenced the Raptors championship ball, I'm pretty sure they had contention in mind.

 

[KuleminFan41]

I should also add, that it doesn't help that our young stars are greedy, would it have killed Matthews, Marner and Nylander to leave a little money on the table for the team. It's every man for themselves, thats the most disappointing part.

I feel like a broken record here, but the Leafs have roughly 14 million in cap space next season, and the cap will go up in the next couple of years with sports gambling data , the Seattle franchise, the US TV deal etc. The cap can realistically go up to 100 million, which will make the big 3 contracts look more than fine. Remember, when the cap was first introduced, it was under 40 million and now we're at 81.5. I understand wanting them to take some off the top, but this is how the league is now a days . Young players are going to command more and they aren't dumb by any means

 

[Buds17]

It should be neither "Cup or bust" nor a "throw away year". There are enough key players signed for a long enough term to have multiple kicks at the can. Conversely, signing a major free agent in Tavares, trading away first round picks, and losing out on term in acquiring Barrie aren't moves a team makes to just write off any season.

 

[Ciao]

If the Leafs' won the cup this year Matthews would be around 22 years 9 months. Marner would be 23, Nylander 24, Rielly 26 and Tavares 29. They are not as young as you are letting on.

As to how many cores that are that young have won the cup? The three big cup winners of the past decade are Pittsburgh, Chicago and LA who won 8 cups over the past 11 years.

Crosby was 21, Letang and Malkin 22 and Fleury 24 when they won their first cup. They had gone to the finals the year before.

Kane was 21, Toews had just turned 22 and Keith was 26 (and most of the team was younger than him) when they won their first cup. They had made it to the third round the year before.

Doughty was 22 and Kopitar was 24 when they won their first cup.

The problems that the Leafs' have this season are many but they have nothing to do with their age.

How old was Ovi?

The truly great players peak early.

Ovechkin peaked at age 22 -- 65 goals, 122 points. He hasn't done that before or since. In fact, Ovi scored 100 points four times by age 24. Since he turned 25 he hasn't done that even once.

Bobby Orr was 22 in 1970 when he won the Stanley Cup, the Conn Smythe, the Art Ross, the Hart and the Norris trophies all at once. Nobody has done that before or since.

Wayne Gretzky was 21 when he scored 92 goals and 212 points. He did break his own points record with 215 at age 25, but no one has ever matched the 92 goals of the 21 y.o. Gretzky.

Teemu Selanne scored 76 goals and 126 points as a 22 y.o. rookie. He never came close to that again.

In 1944-45 a 23 y.o. Maurice Richard set the standard of 50 goals in 50 games, sandwiched between Stanley Cup wins in 1943-44 and '45-46 for a Habs franchise that had been in the dumps, not winning a Cup since 1931.

The Leafs core is not too young to perform well. In fact, these are the years that we should expect to see the peak performances of those among them that have true greatness. That could be one or more, or maybe none. Seeing is believing.

 

[sxvnert]

Only the media built up the cup contending narrative so they could tear this team a new one when they fail to achieve their ridiculous expectations. Its another building year but the first where our prospect pool is sufficiently stacked with one of the youngest teams in the league.

A savvy long term move would be dealing Barrie and Muzzin at the deadline (if we're a wildcard team) and replacing them with Lilly and Sandin.

 

[Coachcorner]

Dubas and Shanahan know we are into contention. We got the best talent on forwards, some treal I mean real offensive minded suckas who can score-a-lot. Also our D is better and goalies are aaaight and tight. We still need that one thug under God who can bring back that fire. Y'all know what I mean energy that sparks others to be better and do bettter. Every great team needs that. We ain't got that, yet. Unless Dubas sees that, we are not going to prevail in the playoffs. But mayne he gets that..... having not played himself etc. Mayne right then, we in it to win it for certainly.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

Pretty stupid thread with all due respect.

Leafs management definitely thought this was a cup contending team going into the season, and it was evident with all the moves they've made.

But what's happening is that Dubas is clearly getting taught a lesson right now in proper team construction to win the cup.

His and Babcock's philosophy for the playoffs wont cut it

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/patience

 

[Subway Schenn]

I should also add, that it doesn't help that our young stars are greedy, would it have killed Matthews, Marner and Nylander to leave a little money on the table for the team. It's every man for themselves, thats the most disappointing part.

Yup, not going to deal with growing pains if they want to be paid like they're already the best in the league. Sadly less emotionally invested in this team although it has the potential to be better than anything I've seen in my lifetime from the blue and white.

 

[Trapper]

Pretty stupid thread with all due respect.

Leafs management definitely thought this was a cup contending team going into the season, and it was evident with all the moves they've made.

But what's happening is that Dubas is clearly getting taught a lesson right now in proper team construction to win the cup.

His and Babcock's philosophy for the playoffs wont cut it

Agreed. If you didn’t think this was a Cup contending team you don’t trade Kadri for a D rental in Barrie and Ceci (even if it is to get rid of Zaitsev. You don’t trade a 1st to get rid of Marleau when Ceci + Barrie make the 6 million anyway. You just plug whatever cause you don’t expect to win.

 

[supsens]

The narrative from Dubas, Babcock during the training camp was that Raptors failed many times (including getting swept) before they won the championship. But media forgets about those hard times but only remembers the time Raptors won.

Based on narrative from the Leafs brass it seems that Leafs are hoping to make the playoffs and see what happens; they are not claiming to be "the" cup contenders like some posters here and the media

They traded first round pick and then Kadri for a pending UFA they done gone all in this year.

 

[paulhiggins]

deleted

 

[Clark4Ever]

I agree. To me they are still young greedy boys. But the problem is that ... with the money they took now comes responsibility to paraphrase Richard Parker. Trust me people would not have expected them to do miracles if they hadn't become the best payed forwards in the league. With man salaries ... they should do man things and that involves winning and having a heart.

And that was always going to be the biggest risk in paying these guys based on projections.

It's a double edged sword because if they don't live up to their contracts, it will also limit the options available in the trade market if Dubas decides to go a different route.

 

[deletethis]

The leafs window's closed, They cannot win cups, its over, lmao, they had to win it before Matthews, Marner and Nylander turned 22-23.

Only in Toronto.

How old are Tavares and Rielly and Andersen? How old were Toews and Kane when they won their first Cup? How old were Crosby and Malkin?

 

[ottomaddox]

Agreed. If you didn’t think this was a Cup contending team you don’t trade Kadri for a D rental in Barrie and Ceci (even if it is to get rid of Zaitsev. You don’t trade a 1st to get rid of Marleau when Ceci + Barrie make the 6 million anyway. You just plug whatever cause you don’t expect to win.

I think there were a few risks taken, but you have to wonder how much success a team might have when 8-9 new roster players are introduced.

 

[rumman]

Marner for Slavin. Make it happen

never happen, why would the Canes do that?