People are Overstating the "Holes" in the Leafs Roster

[Ryan Michaels]

I think on paper this team compares quite favourably to anyone in the league that isn’t Tampa, yet pundits and fans around the league seem to think this roster has huge shortcomings. I understand they’ve earned some skepticism based on last year’s step back and I don’t love being the excuse guy but there are many reasons you can point to for last years shortcomings, that said all teams have to deal with adversity and the results were unacceptable.

However, watching the seasons previews and reading thoughts from around the league no one seems to be considering them a serious contender, despite being the favourite out of the Canadian division. And again I will grant them holding off on thinking so until they can prove it on ice but what I don’t understand is how people are finding “huge holes” with the roster on paper, meanwhile a team like Colorado is the cup favourite.

Colorado vs. Toronto, On Paper
Top end forwards:
Mackinnon-Matthews
Rantanen-Marner
Landeskog-Tavares
Kadri-Nylander

Depth forwards:
Saad-Hyman
Niichuskin-Kerfoot
Burakovsky-Mikheyev
Beyond that neither team has much to write home about.

Defense
Makar-Rielly
Toews-Muzzin
Girard-Brodie
Then it’s Timmins, Graces and Cole vs. Some combo of, well you know, I don’t think there’s a big gulf between either teams depth options here.

Goaltending
Grubauer-Freddy
Francouz-Campbell

Top end forwards are a wash, especially if Matthews plays like he did under Keefe all year, he doesn’t pass MacKinnon obviously but Tavares and Nylander quite comfortably make up for edging out the lower half of the Avs top end.

Depth forwards I’ll give Colorado but I hardly think it’s a massive chasm, yes, Joe Thornton and Vesey are playing disturbingly high right now but let’s see how it goes, regardless this is a player vs. player “on paper” comparison.

Hot take alert: the defence *should* be a wash if Morgan Rielly is anywhere near the Norris candidate people here think he is, for the record I don’t, but he should rack up the points and should be able to at least match a sophomore Makar defensively.

Goaltending favours Toronto unless Freddy is a disaster.

Colorado Avalanche are cup favourites.
Leafs are a team with a lot of holes.

Now the game isn’t played on paper and I have no problem with giving them the advantage based on what they’ve done in the playoffs but if we want to analyze this from strictly a team makeup situation I can’t fathom how our roster that stacks up pretty comparably to the apparent cup champions is left so wanting for some people.

No one has this team as a legitimate contender and most have us neck and neck with the Habs! The Leafs are a hell of a lot closer to Tampa than they are to Montreal. There is an element of Colorado being overrated here as well, there are no super teams in 2020…well….except for Tampa who should be the favourite by a fair margin.

TL/DR: ON PAPER the Leafs are pretty comparable to Colorado and there are no perfect teams in the salary cap era(except maybe Tampa). Yes, Colorado should get the benefit of the doubt and I have no problem with them being considered a much better team than the Leafs on the ice but people who pick the Avs as a cup favourite and find the Leafs roster wanting in any considerable way are totally off base. The Leafs have the players and the onus is on them to make it work we'll see how it goes but on paper they look pretty damn good.

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[RoadWarrior]

I think on paper this team compares quite favourably to anyone in the league that isn’t Tampa, yet pundits and fans around the league seem to think this roster has huge shortcomings. I understand they’ve earned some skepticism based on last year’s step back and I don’t love being the excuse guy but there are many reasons you can point to for last years shortcomings, that said all teams have to deal with adversity and the results were unacceptable.

However, watching the seasons previews and reading thoughts from around the league no one seems to be considering them a serious contender, despite being the favourite out of the Canadian division. And again I will grant them holding off on thinking so until they can prove it on ice but what I don’t understand is how people are finding “huge holes” with the roster on paper, meanwhile a team like Colorado is the cup favourite.

Colorado vs. Toronto, On Paper
Top end forwards:
Mackinnon-Matthews
Rantanen-Marner
Landeskog-Tavares
Kadri-Nylander

Depth forwards:
Saad-Hyman
Niichuskin-Kerfoot
Burakovsky-Mikheyev
Beyond that neither team has much to write home about.

Defense
Makar-Rielly
Toews-Muzzin
Girard-Brodie
Then it’s Timmins, Graces and Cole vs. Some combo of, well you know, I don’t think there’s a big gulf between either teams depth options here.
Goaltending

Grubauer-Freddy
Francouz-Campbell

Top end forwards are a wash, especially if Matthews plays like he did under Keefe all year, he doesn’t pass MacKinnon obviously but Tavares and Nylander quite comfortably make up for edging out the lower half of the Avs top end.

Depth forwards I’ll give Colorado but I hardly think it’s a massive chasm, yes, Joe Thornton and Vesey are playing disturbingly high right now but let’s see how it goes, regardless this is a player vs. player “on paper” comparison.

Hot take alert: the defence *should* be a wash if Morgan Rielly is anywhere near the Norris candidate people here think he is, for the record I don’t, but he should rack up the points and should be able to at least match a sophomore Makar defensively.

Goaltending favours Toronto unless Freddy is a disaster.

Colorado Avalanche are cup favourites.
Leafs are a team with a lot of holes.

Now the game isn’t played on paper and I have no problem with giving them the advantage based on what they’ve done in the playoffs but if we want to analyze this from strictly a team makeup situation I can’t fathom how our roster that stacks up pretty comparably to the apparent cup champions is left so wanting for some people.

No one has this team as a legitimate contender and most have us neck and neck with the Habs! The Leafs are a hell of a lot closer to Tampa than they are to Montreal. There is an element of Colorado being overrated here as well, there are no super teams in 2020…well….except for Tampa who should be the favourite by a fair margin.

TL/DR: ON PAPER the Leafs are pretty comparable to Colorado and there are no perfect teams in the salary cap era(except maybe Tampa). Yes, Colorado should get the benefit of the doubt and I have no problem with them being considered a much better team than the Leafs on the ice but people who pick the Avs as a cup favourite and find the Leafs roster wanting in any considerable way are totally off base. The Leafs have the players and the onus is on them to make it work we'll see how it goes but on paper they look pretty damn good.

The leafs have been competitive on paper for a few years but they need to prove they can win in elimination games which thus far have been a disaster.

 

[Baberham Lincoln]

What are the holes these hockey pundits are talking about? Could you give us examples?

 

[Ryan Michaels]

The leafs have been competitive on paper for a few years but they need to prove they can win in elimination games which thus far have been a disaster.

Yeah I acknowledged this probably 4-5 times I just want to know how people can be critical of the roster on paper when they stack up quite well to the consensus cup favourite.

As I said I have no issue with the critique of their on ice play.

 

[The Best Leafs Ever]

I think on paper this team compares quite favourably to anyone in the league that isn’t Tampa, yet pundits and fans around the league seem to think this roster has huge shortcomings. I understand they’ve earned some skepticism based on last year’s step back and I don’t love being the excuse guy but there are many reasons you can point to for last years shortcomings, that said all teams have to deal with adversity and the results were unacceptable.

However, watching the seasons previews and reading thoughts from around the league no one seems to be considering them a serious contender, despite being the favourite out of the Canadian division. And again I will grant them holding off on thinking so until they can prove it on ice but what I don’t understand is how people are finding “huge holes” with the roster on paper, meanwhile a team like Colorado is the cup favourite.

Colorado vs. Toronto, On Paper
Top end forwards:
Mackinnon-Matthews
Rantanen-Marner
Landeskog-Tavares
Kadri-Nylander

Depth forwards:
Saad-Hyman
Niichuskin-Kerfoot
Burakovsky-Mikheyev
Beyond that neither team has much to write home about.

Defense
Makar-Rielly
Toews-Muzzin
Girard-Brodie
Then it’s Timmins, Graces and Cole vs. Some combo of, well you know, I don’t think there’s a big gulf between either teams depth options here.
Goaltending

Grubauer-Freddy
Francouz-Campbell

Top end forwards are a wash, especially if Matthews plays like he did under Keefe all year, he doesn’t pass MacKinnon obviously but Tavares and Nylander quite comfortably make up for edging out the lower half of the Avs top end.

Depth forwards I’ll give Colorado but I hardly think it’s a massive chasm, yes, Joe Thornton and Vesey are playing disturbingly high right now but let’s see how it goes, regardless this is a player vs. player “on paper” comparison.

Hot take alert: the defence *should* be a wash if Morgan Rielly is anywhere near the Norris candidate people here think he is, for the record I don’t, but he should rack up the points and should be able to at least match a sophomore Makar defensively.

Goaltending favours Toronto unless Freddy is a disaster.

Colorado Avalanche are cup favourites.
Leafs are a team with a lot of holes.

Now the game isn’t played on paper and I have no problem with giving them the advantage based on what they’ve done in the playoffs but if we want to analyze this from strictly a team makeup situation I can’t fathom how our roster that stacks up pretty comparably to the apparent cup champions is left so wanting for some people.

No one has this team as a legitimate contender and most have us neck and neck with the Habs! The Leafs are a hell of a lot closer to Tampa than they are to Montreal. There is an element of Colorado being overrated here as well, there are no super teams in 2020…well….except for Tampa who should be the favourite by a fair margin.

TL/DR: ON PAPER the Leafs are pretty comparable to Colorado and there are no perfect teams in the salary cap era(except maybe Tampa). Yes, Colorado should get the benefit of the doubt and I have no problem with them being considered a much better team than the Leafs on the ice but people who pick the Avs as a cup favourite and find the Leafs roster wanting in any considerable way are totally off base. The Leafs have the players and the onus is on them to make it work we'll see how it goes but on paper they look pretty damn good.

Nobody on our team plays with the intensity that Mckinnon brings every game. And I mean nobody. It's actually sad to see the talent being afraid to go out there and snatch the win from opponents.

 

[Ryan Michaels]

What are the holes these hockey pundits are talking about? Could you give us examples?

I wish I could tell you, it's usually just vague depth criticisms based on this refusal to acknowledge that there are no perfect teams in the NHL. I heard Carlo Coliacovo roasting the Brodie signing because he's a left shot dman, ignoring the fact that he has tons of experience playing with Giordano on his off-side during the best years of the laters career. Just lots of vague nitpicking, I get that it's a Toronto media thing too but it just doesn't hold up to scrutiny. They also are consistently getting painted as being neck and neck with the Habs which is nuts because not only are the Habs much worse on paper they haven't done anything on ice either.

Also what made me think of this was catching this thread on the Colorado board:
The Canadian Division

And obviously we've got ample examples on the main boards but yes alot of that could be disingenuous trolling.

 

[VanW27]

You're majorly underrating the Avs defense.

Cole and Graves are closer to Muzzin than they are to Holl/Dermott/Bogosian

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Da big overstated word is HEART ... we don't have that will to win that drives a winner forward ... without it you are dead to me no matter da skill level ... let's hope da boys can turn into men this season

 

[zeke]

Which holes?

#1C Matthews
#2C Tavares
#3C Kerfoot
#4C Spezza
#5C Boyd/Brooks/Engvall

#1W Marner
#2W Nylander
#3W Hyman
#4W Mikheyev
#5W Thornton
#6W Vesey
#7W Simmonds
#8W Barabanov
#XW Robertson/Boyd/Engvall/Anderson


#1D Rielly
#2D Muzzin
#3D Brodie
#4D Holl
#5D Dermott
#6D Bogosian
#XD Lehtonen/Sandin/Liljegren


#1G Andersen
#2G Campbell
#3G Dell

 

[Ryan Michaels]

You're majorly underrating the Avs defense.

Cole and Graves are closer to Muzzin than they are to Holl/Dermott/Bogosian

Okay thank you, I don't agree but this is the type of explanation I would like to see.

 

[Ryan Michaels]

Nobody on our team plays with the intensity that Mckinnon brings every game. And I mean nobody. It's actually sad to see the talent being afraid to go out there and snatch the win from opponents.

Da big overstated word is HEART ... we don't have that will to win that drives a winner forward ... without it you are dead to me no matter da skill level ... let's hope da boys can turn into men this season

I agree but again I'm speaking from a roster construction point of view. Intensity and Heart are on-ice analysis's that I already said(probably 8 times) I have no problem with heavily favouring Colorado.

 

[hamzarocks]

On paper we have the 3rd best team after the bolts and Avs

With dubas having assets that can be sold to add to either strengthen LW or give more depth on defense.

It remains to be seen if the players gel together and can be mature enough to perform to that level.also in hockey sadly the best teams cant win on skill alone. Need luck, momentum, hard work, and good fortune to win along with a competitive and skilled roster.

 

[zeke]

You're majorly underrating the Avs defense.

Cole and Graves are closer to Muzzin than they are to Holl/Dermott/Bogosian

Yeah.....nope.

 

[Ryan Michaels]

Which holes?

#1C Matthews
#2C Tavares
#3C Kerfoot
#4C Spezza
#5C Boyd/Brooks/Engvall

#1W Marner
#2W Nylander
#3W Hyman
#4W Mikheyev
#5W Thornton
#6W Vesey
#7W Simmonds
#8W Barabanov
#XW Robertson/Boyd/Engvall/Anderson


#1D Rielly
#2D Muzzin
#3D Brodie
#4D Holl
#5D Dermott
#6D Bogosian
#XD Lehtonen/Sandin/Liljegren


#1G Andersen
#2G Campbell
#3G Dell

I honestly don't know. I wish I could tell you. It's just vague "depth" criticisms when there isn't anyone inappropriately slotted and this vague notion that the construction of this team is not good enough.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Yeah, but Colorado took down the mighty Arizona Coyotes! How dare anybody speak ill of somebody who takes down the mighty Arizona Coyotes! This clearly separates Colorado as proven playoff warriors and the chosen one who will rise to greatness atop all us lowly mortal teams.

 

[Ryan Michaels]

Yeah.....nope.

Right? These are the kind of perceptions that I think create this bizarre evaluation of the Leafs roster. According to that assessment I guess Colorado has 4 #2 dmen and a #1? That would actually explain their ranking.

 

[hamzarocks]

Yeah.....nope.

Avs team top to bottom is slightly better than the leafs imo

They're the 2nd best team with us 3rd and bolts 1st.

Mack, Rantanen, Landeskog, Kadri, Saad, Burakovsky is an incredible top 6

Girard, Makar, Byram, Timmins, EJ, Toews is a great set of 6 D with Graves and Cole both atleast decent bottom pairing fits.

Their weakness is in goal perhaps with Graubauer being injury prone and inconsistent

 

[Mickey Marner]

Nobody questions our top-six...

Bottom-six leaves something to be desired, we could use a RD upgrade unless Dermott steps up, and I don't think anyone is confident in Andersen.

Looks like 3-4 upgrades from a cup winner to me. Hopefully we win a couple playoff rounds this year.

 

[al secord]

If you're searching for intelligent thoughts and Carlo Colaiacovo's are what you land on, i really don't know what to say to you.

 

[Ryan Michaels]

Avs team top to bottom is slightly better than the leafs imo

They're the 2nd best team with us 3rd and bolts 1st.

Mack, Rantanen, Landeskog, Kadri, Saad, Burakovsky is an incredible top 6

Girard, Makar, Byram, Timmins, EJ, Toews is a great set of 6 D with Graves and Cole both atleast decent bottom pairing fits.

Their weakness is in goal perhaps with Graubauer being injury prone and inconsistent

Yeah I'm fine with that and fine with giving the Avs on edge based on being more proven on ice I just question this idea that one is a cup favourite and the Leafs aren't much of a threat at all.

Stanley Cup predictions for 2020-21 NHL season

12 out of 15 pick the Avs to win the cup, 4 have the Leafs making it out of the Canadian division, none have them making the finals. They also have the Canucks making the final four more frequently and also appearing in the finals

 

[Ryan Michaels]

If you're searching for intelligent thoughts and Carlo Colaiacovo's are what you land on, i really don't know what to say to you.

Haha yes sadly I caught him on a commercial, I would never intentionally subject myself to that. Yes, an alternate title for this thread could just be "hockey pundits are bad."

 

[ottomaddox]

Only one giant hole left: inexperienced President, GM, and Head Coach. Everything else seems good to me.

 

[Ryan Michaels]

Nobody questions our top-six...

Bottom-six leaves something to be desired, we could use a RD upgrade unless Dermott steps up, and I don't think anyone is confident in Andersen.

Looks like 3-4 upgrades from a cup winner to me. Hopefully we win a couple playoff rounds this year.

Right but who do you have as the cup winner? Because unless it's Tampa I don't think there's a team in the league that is 3-4 upgrades better.

 

[hamzarocks]

Yeah I'm fine with that and fine with giving the Avs on edge based on being more proven on ice I just question this idea that one is a cup favourite and the Leafs aren't much of a threat at all.

Stanley Cup predictions for 2020-21 NHL season

12 out of 15 pick the Avs to win the cup, 4 have the Leafs making it out of the Canadian division, none have them making the finals. They also have the Canucks making the final four more frequently and also appearing in the finals

Honestly I see us sweeping our way through the two rounds. I believe this team will dismantle the division. But i get that List was made to get clicks and raise buzz. Having the leafs make it easily out of the North is to easy so they have us falling and a lower class team making it to get leaf fans upset and comment/discuss the listing. Also some members of the voting may see our past 4 playoff series and assume the same will hold this year. I dont see our past failures affecting us that way. Our three young studs are basically entering their primes. The next 3-4 years are our best shot at the cup and I see these guys all really motivated to win and win soon having learned from the first 4 years of their careers where they were lacking

Our team is very good with perhaps a few areas of improvement that are addressable through the trade deadline.

 

[Buds17]

Failure to at least win a round is probably where things stem from. The Lightning get respect as the reigning champs. Colorado is in the other conference. At minimum, there is an opportunity for one of the Canadian teams to make the final four. Maybe that makes it easier to underestimate a Canadian team such as Toronto? Everything is essentially based on predictions and paper right now. That could either mean a lot or very little once the games really get going.