Post-Game Talk: Pens vs Nucks: In Soviet hockey, you dont score on PP, PP scores on you!

[AuroraBorealis]

I don't agree and this reeks of misguided management philosophy that any failure is correctable.

The Penguins will be very bad in a few years and there is no way around that. But if they start the rebuild now their time at the bottom may not be low enough or long enough to acquire the top-5 picks that is crucial to building a core that can contend.

No, misguided management is what's happening right now. They are not in a position to win, are are just screwing around, wasting time.

Even if you're far from a Cup, you have to start taking steps towards that. And not every rebuild is about top 5 picks. We have had many very big contributing second and third rounders. Letang, Guentzel, Murray, Rust, etc...
A lot of later 1st rounders are better than top 10 ones. Scouts aren't that accurate.

What you do is stockpile picks until your odds get good of hitting on a few of them. Then when your team's level rises, you become a more desirable place to play for quality free agents or guys requesting trades. Then the team's level gets elevated more, until you're genuinely threatening at some point down the road.

There's nothing to wait for. Any time wasted now is time they could have spent deepening the prospect pool, during years we KNOW the Pens will either lose in R1 or miss the playoffs. Those are net gains, even if there isn't a future franchise star among them. That's progression towards relevance.

Nothing says conquering your obstacles and competitors like giving up.

That's not giving up. That's a temporary requirement to succeed in this league. That's how we won our Cups.
You have to build a new, younger, stronger foundation.
It's the job of the GM and ownership to identify the right time to pull that trigger. The Pens have reached that point. They're thoroughly mid. They're pretenders.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

They're playing for the postseason, not boosting career stats. That's not a wasted season at all. In fact it's about all you can really hope for.

They're not going to win. They're not built to beat the top teams in a best of 7. And if you're not, then that means you have to build the team up to a point where they can. That's the GM's mandate, or at least is supposed to be.

In our case we're not 1 or 2 players away at the trade deadline. We need a new foundation and to do it slowly, the right way.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

You're being intellectually dishonest here, man.

Guentzel is by far the Pen's most offensively talented winger. BY FAR. Of course Malkin's numbers would increase by playing with him instead of Reilly Smith.

I just think it's asinine to downplay Sid's play this year and attribute it to Jake Guentzel. Particularly by the guy whose favorite fall back is "bro looks like you don't watch the games".

f*** off. Geno's been fine, but Sid's been great, entirely independent of their winger situations.

 

[tom_servo]

They're not going to win. They're not well poised to beat the top teams in a best of 7. And if you're not, then that means you have to build the team up to a point where they can. That's the GM's mandate, or at least is supposed to be.

In our case we're not 1 or 2 players away at the trade deadline. We need a new foundation and do it slowly, the right way.

Ok, with the same confidence you say they can't win, I'm going to say they will never be gifted a top 10-all time talent again.

The Penguins have never undergone a regular rebuild. We've hit on scratch off tickets. In a way, we've cheated fate. Regular rebuilders fail way more often than not, and for longer. Doesn't matter how wise they are. Doing it the right way really doesn't matter. Look at many picks the Flyers acquired over the years. They "asset managed" their way out of Claude Giroux. And they still suck. It's maybe more toxic than ever over there.

It's almost pure chaos to end up with a great team.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

No, misguided management is what's happening right now. They are not in a position to win, are are just screwing around, wasting time.

Even if you're far from a Cup, you have to start taking steps towards that. And not every rebuild is about top 5 picks. We have had many very big contributing second and third rounders. Letang, Guentzel, Murray, Rust, etc...
A lot of later 1st rounders are better than top 10 ones. Scouts aren't that accurate.

What you do is stockpile picks until your odds get good of hitting on a few of them. Then when your team's level rises, you become a more desirable place to play for quality free agents or guys requesting trades. Then the team's level gets elevated more, until you're genuinely threatening at some point down the road.

There's nothing to wait for. Any time wasted now is time they could have spent deepening the prospect pool, during years we KNOW the Pens will either lose in R1 or miss the playoffs. Those are net gains, even if there isn't a future franchise star among them. That's progression towards relevance.


That's not giving up. That's a temporary requirement to succeed in this league. That's how we won our Cups.
You have to build a new, younger, stronger foundation.
It's the job of the GM and ownership to identify the right time to pull that trigger. The Pens have reached that point. They're thoroughly mid. They're pretenders.

Are you a Penguins fan? Truly elite forwards are almost all found with top 5 picks, and they have an outsized impact on a team's success. If the Penguins started stockpiling picks now, some of those players would mature and begin making a positive impact, which could ruin the team's chances of bottoming out. Short circuiting a rebuild by trading off guys is what the Flyers did, and I have no desire for the Penguins to emulate the 2013-2021 Flyers and float around in mediocrity. A failed rebuild is worse for the long term than one that hasn't yet begun.

 

[Gurglesons]

Are you a Penguins fan? Truly elite forwards are almost all found with top 5 picks, and they have an outsized impact on a team's success. If the Penguins started stockpiling picks now, some of those players would mature and begin making a positive impact, which could ruin the team's chances of bottoming out. Short circuiting a rebuild by trading off guys is what the Flyers did, and I have no desire for the Penguins to emulate the 2013-2021 Flyers and float around in mediocrity. A failed rebuild is worse for the long term than one that hasn't yet begun.

It’s funny how many fail to realize what this team is set up to do. As soon as Sid and Geno are retired every contract will be sold off. These people crying about us not rebuilding soon enough will get their wish of watching Ryan Graves be our best D for a year or two lol.

 

[pistolpete11]

That's not giving up. That's a temporary requirement to succeed in this league. That's how we won our Cups.
You have to build a new, younger, stronger foundation.
It's the job of the GM and ownership to identify the right time to pull that trigger. The Pens have reached that point. They're thoroughly mid. They're pretenders.

I disagree. They aren't favorites, but they are good enough to give it a go.

Without a nearly historic PP goalless drought that is unlikely to happen again, they would be comfortably in the playoffs. I think their stretch over the last 10-15 games is sustainable, because the only thing that has really changed is they've scored a few PP goals. They've been playing this well most of the year. Not every player, not every night, but as a team over time.

 

[pistolpete11]

I just think it's asinine to downplay Sid's play this year and attribute it to Jake Guentzel. Particularly by the guy whose favorite fall back is "bro looks like you don't watch the games".

f*** off. Geno's been fine, but Sid's been great, entirely independent of their winger situations.

Nobody is downplaying Sid's play, but some people are downplaying the contributions of the rest of the team.

Pointing out that Malkin has only 8 less points playing with far inferior talent around him is helping to make that point.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Nobody is downplaying Sid's play, but some people are downplaying the contributions of the rest of the team.

Pointing out that Malkin has only 8 less points playing with far inferior talent around him is helping to make that point.

Is 8 points like, not many? Over half a season?

I mean shit, Letang has 27 in 40 playing PP2 and the defense position. Pretty impressive. Letang, Petts, Sid and Jake have been our best guys this year. +The goalie duo.

 

[pistolpete11]

Is 8 points like, not many? Over half a season?

I mean shit, Letang has 27 in 40 playing PP2 and the defense position. Pretty impressive. Letang, Petts, Sid and Jake have been our best guys this year. +The goalie duo.

It's significant. It would not be nearly as big of a gap if they swapped LWers.

 

[3ladesof5teel]

Ok, with the same confidence you say they can't win, I'm going to say they will never be gifted a top 10-all time talent again.

The Penguins have never undergone a regular rebuild. We've hit on scratch off tickets. In a way, we've cheated fate. Regular rebuilders fail way more often than not, and for longer. Doesn't matter how wise they are. Doing it the right way really doesn't matter. Look at many picks the Flyers acquired over the years. They "asset managed" their way out of Claude Giroux. And they still suck. It's maybe more toxic than ever over there.

It's almost pure chaos to end up with a great team.

People act like we didn't win the lotto getting the likes of Sid/Geno/Lemieux/Jagr.

It's not the norm but they act like it. They will be lucky to get another guy in their same mold in their lifetime. There are Canadian fans that will never get that talent on there team but hey........let's start the rebuild

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

+ Jarry played really well and didn't let anything in until OT. Gymnastics of posters in this Pittsburgh Penguin section. All of the posters are pretty quite right now.
Not nagging on NEd he's done great had a stinker and we move on. Take notes anti Jarry people.

+ Crosby guy is out there playing hard doing everything.

- Sullivan
I do not think Malkin should get to go out during OT unless it's guaranteed we have the puck. He just does not work.

Geno's skating looks particularly bad this season. I know between age and injuries, you expect it. But the decline even from last season looks pronounced.

It's a testament to his ability that even with his glacial skating he's still on pace for roughly 30 goals and 70 points.

 

[ChaosAgent]

It's significant. It would not be nearly as big of a gap if they swapped LWers.

It's also the goal scoring though. Goals are worth more than assists, full-stop.

In short Sid has played well enough at ES to overcome the demerits he (and EK65 and Jake and Geno and Rust/Rakell) must take for the Powerplay. Malkin has not. But at the same time, Malkin is at or slightly above expectations for a $6m 2C. Not like he's killing them out there aside from his participation in PP1.

 

[3ladesof5teel]

It's also the goal scoring though. Goals are worth more than assists, full-stop.

In short Sid has played well enough at ES to overcome the demerits he (and EK65 and Jake and Geno and Rust/Rakell) must take for the Powerplay. Malkin has not. But at the same time, Malkin is at or slightly above expectations for a $6m 2C. Not like he's killing them out there aside from his participation in PP1.

So we are blaming Malkin solely for PP1 issue.......goooot it

 

[pistolpete11]

It's also the goal scoring though. Goals are worth more than assists, full-stop.

In short Sid has played well enough at ES to overcome the demerits he (and EK65 and Jake and Geno and Rust/Rakell) must take for the Powerplay. Malkin has not. But at the same time, Malkin is at or slightly above expectations for a $6m 2C. Not like he's killing them out there aside from his participation in PP1.

Even if that's your take, the gap would not be as big as it is if they swapped LWers.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Even if that's your take, the gap would not be as big as it is if they swapped LWers.

Of course, swapping Smith for Guentzel would help anyone.
I'm not impressed by L2 (haven't been since 2017-2018) and I don't find Reilly Smith to be so offensively bad individually. Let's give DOC 5 more games to see if L2 can be on the positive side of the ledger. He does have better energy and his brain is catching up out there.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

FWIW last season at the 40 game mark, this team was 21-13-6. This year they're 20-15-5.

They're basically the same team as last season more or less--still just as mediocre as they've been for years. They'll go on stretches where they lose a ton--and they're not as bad as that makes them seem. They'll go on stretches like this recent one where they are leaps and bounds above .500--and they're not as good as that makes them seem either.

I think they'll still just kinda hover around a WC spot, just in or just out, for the rest of the season. And again, that's with Sid playing at a level like he has been. /shrug

Nobody is downplaying Sid's play, but some people are downplaying the contributions of the rest of the team.

Pointing out that Malkin has only 8 less points playing with far inferior talent around him is helping to make that point.

It's not really about the point difference to me. Sid's been clearly superior to Geno in all three zones, by a pretty wide margin imo. If point totals told the whole story, the gap would be wider tbh. /shrug

 

[Will Hunting]

So we are blaming Malkin solely for PP1 issue.......goooot it

Not entirely. It´s not even his fault that the Pens keep thinking that Geno is 26 years old and keep feeding him pucks all the time, waiting for him to shoot or magically create something. Even in 5vs3 format, it was all about Pens feeding Malkin and Malkin not having a great shot anymore. It´s very predictable and Pens should stop with this nonsense. Malkin used to be a great powerplay threat, but not anymore. He is not THE GUY that should touch the puck the most on the powerplay. His shot is not so dangerous anymore and he is way too slow and predictable to be the main guy. Pens basically need more variety on the powerplay to be more effective. Feeding pucks to Malkin and looking at what he does ain´t that. That´s more of a system error than Malkin´s error too.

 

[3ladesof5teel]

Not entirely. It´s not even his fault that the Pens keep thinking that Geno is 26 years old and keep feeding him pucks all the time, waiting for him to shoot or magically create something. Even in 5vs3 format, it was all about Pens feeding Malkin and Malkin not having a great shot anymore. It´s very predictable and Pens should stop with this nonsense. Malkin used to be a great powerplay threat, but not anymore. He is not THE GUY that should touch the puck the most on the powerplay. His shot is not so dangerous anymore and he is way too slow and predictable to be the main guy. Pens basically need more variety on the powerplay to be more effective. Feeding pucks to Malkin and looking at what he does ain´t that. That´s more of a system error than Malkin´s error too.

I don't think it's necessarily Geno and his shot. Like you said the Powerplay is so stagnant and predictable that the lanes are being blocked extremely easily. Look how many shots other teams are blocking of ours when we are on the Powerplay.

It's predictable with little movement and nobody doing the dirty in front of the next. I don't think Geno is the problem.

 

[CascadiaPenguin]

If (actually "when") the Pens regress to the mean, which is not only possible but probable.... then there's considerable doubt that we'll get in. They''ll be close again barring major injuries or the highly unlikely option of deliberately going in the tank, but unless they keep getting 65%+ of possible points they aren't nearly a lock. And they aren't nearly a lock to keep playing that well.

Jarry has to prove that his season doesn't end in January as it seemingly so often has; Ned has to prove that he's not just a fluke and can handle enough of a workload to keep Jarry fresh (not looking good there).

Dubas needs to bring in a real defenseman or two, because any combination of POJ/Ruhwedel/Shea being the lineup on a daily basis is beyond idiotic. When 2 of your other defensemen are Graves & EK, you can't afford AHLers on your bottom pair. Graves doesn't nearly deserve all the shit he gets from the keyboard experts, but nobody can pretend he's any kind of defensive stalwart.

Harkins' little "hot" streak will end soon but he'll keep playing, which is stupid. Puusy is already clearly way out of favor despite what he brings, and that's also stupid. The first move Dubas ought to make pertains to the guy behind the bench, and I'm not talking about giving him another big-bucks contract extension.

The mean I was referring to is more directed to teams like Philly and the Isles, who will likely drop in the standings, IMHO. Our putrid performance from November through mid December was hopefully our low point and is already computed in our avg. win%. If we have another month like that, we're toast, I agree.

And as I alluded to in my earlier post, Pens will cool off to some extent, and they also may enjoy one of their patented 9 game W streaks that come out of nowhere, we shall see.

You're spot on about Jerry finally finishing a winter strong as are your critiques about our defensive weaknesses. Don't hold your breath on Sully's expulsion. Absent a rebuild, we may be stuck with him for two more years at least.

 

[pistolpete11]

It's not really about the point difference to me. Sid's been clearly superior to Geno in all three zones, by a pretty wide margin imo. If point totals told the whole story, the gap would be wider tbh. /shrug

Again, you're missing the point. Nobody is saying that Crosby hasn't been great. Nobody is even saying that he hasn't been better than Malkin. The point is that he's not a one man army out there. Not everything good that happens is thanks to him and not everything bad that happens is because the rest of the team let him down.

All things considered (such as linemates), they are getting significant contributions from a number of guys. Including Malkin.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Are you a Penguins fan? Truly elite forwards are almost all found with top 5 picks, and they have an outsized impact on a team's success. If the Penguins started stockpiling picks now, some of those players would mature and begin making a positive impact, which could ruin the team's chances of bottoming out. Short circuiting a rebuild by trading off guys is what the Flyers did, and I have no desire for the Penguins to emulate the 2013-2021 Flyers and float around in mediocrity. A failed rebuild is worse for the long term than one that hasn't yet begun.

Yes. Hello, I'm AB. This is my 32nd year following the team. Nice to meet you.
I'm sorry that our views don't align on this matter, but that happens from time to time on a sports board.

 

[CascadiaPenguin]

history has showen that when sid goes down geno picks it up.

Ironically, injuries are often the best thing to happen to this team (not trying to be morbid or insensitive). Then the star player comes back and we play confused for a week. Except last year - Letang returning from losing his father and scoring two including the GW OT PP G against the Panthers. If that didn't move your soul, you must be dead or a vampire.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Ok, with the same confidence you say they can't win, I'm going to say they will never be gifted a top 10-all time talent again.

Even so, I feel that a contender can be built without one, with good management and a smartly engineered rebuild...which I think Dubas is capable of. Eichel is not a top-10 player all-time player. Neither is Marchessault or Aden Hill. Yet they won the Cup.
The collective contributions are what matters.

The Penguins have never undergone a regular rebuild. We've hit on scratch off tickets. In a way, we've cheated fate. Regular rebuilders fail way more often than not, and for longer. Doesn't matter how wise they are. Doing it the right way really doesn't matter. Look at many picks the Flyers acquired over the years. They "asset managed" their way out of Claude Giroux. And they still suck. It's maybe more toxic than ever over there.

The Pens exploited the draft system for those, yes. Doesn't matter what's happened before. That was a long time ago. Only matters what they need to do now.
What's their alternative? Sid missing the playoffs for the last 3 years of his contract, or scraping a 1st round entry and golfing in 2 weeks? What's the point of this? What's getting accomplished this season?
Even if their rebuild fails, I'd be happy to see them make a valid attempt at bringing the team back to relevance, instead of being an afterthought.
I don't agree at all that the method of the rebuild is irrelevant. There's very clear mistakes that the Flyers, Senators, Sabres, Wings and others have made in building their foundation, which has slowed them down.

What I'm talking about is a more intelligent GM doing it better and overseeing the whole process...one who is obsessed with draft and development and worked in the minors for years. This is the right man to do this. If we wait and pull the trigger on a rebuild in like 4 years or w/e, he might not be here or not be here for long enough to oversee the entire process. THAT'S when it will get hurt, cuz someone worse would come in and ruin it.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Yes. Hello, I'm AB. This is my 32nd year following the team. Nice to meet you.
I'm sorry that our views don't align on this matter, but that happens from time to time on a sports board.

No that's fine, sorry if I came off too harsh. I think we just have different philosophies towards rebuilding a team.