Post-Game Talk: |Pens vs Habs | Loss | Pathetic

[Buddy Bizarre]

Our core wasn't 35 years old during the Therrien and Bylsma eras

You don't say!!!

They also weren't 30 during the Therrien/Byslma eras nor any other age than they were during those respective timeframes

I guess they're all expired then, trade em all for picks because no coach can succeed with such an old group eh?

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

It'd be the height of hilarity if this team finally got the balls to fire Sully just to have Reirden named coach, and the lines/PP/TOI to stay the same.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I'm just still wrestling with the idea that he does all of this himself (and not the video coach? not the ACs?) and yet still nothing changes.

On the one hand, yeah, I agree it's a lot things to do, on paper. But again, the bolded here are things that a) do not change unless Sullivan is forced to do them and b) clearly not working. He doesn't explain anything to the media. He doesn't seem to be inclined to change anything. It's hard to claim you have to work so hard because of all the changes when no changes happen. The ice time is a mess. The media doesn't ask any challenging questions aside from whoever that was a few weeks ago who actually asked a specific question about lineup changes and got no answer.

It would be much much easier to swallow the argument that Sully is being failed by his ACs and he's simply too nice to do anything about it if he hadn't come in as a tough coach. And if he is overwhelmed here, he needs to be requesting help. It's not like we're limited to a set amount of ACs after all.

The video coach clips and compiles things, sure. Sullivan needs to watch and identify problems and positives with his own eyes though. He's not gonna be asking the video coach to analyze his own system. Reirden and Vellucci present small segments from special teams before/after Sullivan's done. We've seen this done in "In The Room". Reirden can contribute to points Sullivan is making in regards to the blue line for example though, since he's in charge of them.
So yeah there's some help for sure, but editing with known timestamps isn't the tedious part. It's identifying what's worth showing in the allotted time and having explanations ready for the players.

A big part of why our asshole contingent of our media doesn't ask tough questions is because of how Sullivan has handled them. He treats everyone equally and almost never gets provoked. Doesn't create enemies. He earned their respect.
If Tortorella was here, do you think Rossi, Kovacevic and Yohe would be so meek? No chance. They'd be petty and we'd have drama. Even this Shirey kid seems to have an edge to him.

The ice time is 100% a mess, but he's still managing it every game in the way he feels is best, and it's something he has to worry about constantly.

He doesn't need to request more help. That's what I'm saying. We have people who support him, and since we do it's lazy to just blame Sullivan for everything. There's a team behind this, just like in any communal workplace. Like if Reirden managed to get the PP to top 5 in the league, and Vellucci got our PK to top 10, what's our record right now and what are people saying about Sullivan? We wouldn't even be having this conversation. What if Jarry actually played like a starter?

I'm not gonna say he's doing a great job this year by any stretch but we are a terrific 5v5 scoring team, so that's at least a big positive moving forward. The Rangers and Leafs for example are where they are because they haven't had it, so it's not something I take for granted. It gives me a little hope for the future. The 5v5 team defense could be much better for sure. I think he could motivate them more, like they were in the 2 games we won recently. Would also say we haven't been fired up to play in the first 10+ minutes of way too many games, and we're not handling road games well.
That being said, I'm not gonna blame him for stupid decisions from veterans of hundreds and hundreds of games on defense that cost us points. It's Reirden's job to get them in a good headspace.

I don't think the main problem with Sullivan is that he's a bad coach, even factoring in the poor lineup choices/allocations. I think he's been here too long. All these recent failures sapped his energy. He created emotional bonds with the players that limits his objectivity and sense of accountability for everyone. The players don't fear reprisal for coasting, knowing the consequences aren't severe in many cases.
When he first came here there was this excitement every day. The players didn't know what was coming next, and there was a healthy tension on the bench. He was younger and had more passion, getting in guy's faces and screaming at the refs and shit. The players felt his care level more.
He needs a break from coaching and a new team after, to rediscover his love for the job.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

It'd be the height of hilarity if this team finally got the balls to fire Sully just to have Reirden named coach, and the lines/PP/TOI to stay the same.

"We really feel Todd is the right choice moving forward due to his experience level along with his knowledge and comfort with this group and this system."

lol... you're 100% right. It kinda makes the possibility of Sullivan moving on feel like a trap. I'm absolutely not of this opinion that you can just hold the whole team ransom out of fear that you MIGHT get the wrong guy (but we CAN'T fire Sullivan because what if Mike Johnston!). But I already know for certain that TODDDDDDD isn't the right guy.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

"We really feel Todd is the right choice moving forward due to his experience level along with his knowledge and comfort with this group and this system."

lol... you're 100% right. It kinda makes the possibility of Sullivan moving on feel like a trap. I'm absolutely not of this opinion that you can just hold the whole team ransom out of fear that you MIGHT get the wrong guy (but we CAN'T fire Sullivan because what if Mike Johnston!). But I already know for certain that TODDDDDDD isn't the right guy.

When changes eventually get made, FSG just has to scorched earth the whole thing. If Hextall's fired, and I think he will be by New Year, just can 'em all. Same for the coaching staff. They just reshuffled the whole thing a couple years ago but kept Sully, so f*** it, get rid of 'em all again. Sid will handle things with ipads until new people are hired.

Dude may as well be Reggie Dunlop out there anymore anyway.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

When changes eventually get made, FSG just has to scorched earth the whole thing. If Hextall's fired, and I think he will be by New Year, just can 'em all. Same for the coaching staff. They just reshuffled the whole thing a couple years ago but kept Sully, so f*** it, get rid of 'em all again. Sid will handle things with ipads until new people are hired.

Dude may as well be Reggie Dunlop out there anymore anyway.

You joke but were it up to me I'd just bring back player-coaches. Precisely because shit would be more chaotic and less like a bunch of marionettes on strings being yanked around by a gaggle of former plugs and goons with largely mush for brains that have been recycled through the league for decades. Ya know... more how the sport should be.

But yes clearly the right move would be a full house-cleaning. Sullivan already had his staff fired out from underneath of him once, after all. But good luck with all that.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

You joke but were it up to me I'd just bring back player-coaches. Precisely because shit would be more chaotic and less like a bunch of marionettes on strings being yanked around by a gaggle of former plugs and goons with largely mush for brains that have been recycled through the league for decades. Like how the sport should be.

But yes clearly the right move would be a full house-cleaning. Sullivan already had his staff fired out from underneath of him once, after all. But good luck with all that.

I think I kinda just don't give a f*** about coaches anymore. Aside from the obviously incompetent situations like Bylsma and Johnston, I don't think it really, genuinely matters that much. There's only so much preparation and "getting guys ready to play" that a person can do before it's up to the players to take over.

I think Sully is *years* beyond his expiration date, to be clear. An entire tenure of extreme positive reinforcement coupled with above and beyond what was needed in terms of job security for the guy just inflated his ego to massive proportions and he's become to unflinching and spitefully stubborn in his approach to anything that nothing will ever change. We've talked about it before, I don't believe for a minute that Sully is some dolt that's gonna be an assistant coaching in a lesser league somewhere if/when he's fired like Bylsma, or crawl back to his hovel in Junior hockey like Johnston. Sully's a smart, good coach, he's just the *wrong* coach for this team, and has been for years.

But I'm not entirely convinced a new coach would come in and break up Jake-Sid-Rust either. Or ride the big name guys any less because of how tight a playoff race the Metro is, and how far behind the Pens have fallen after that skid.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm just apathetic toward the coaching thing anymore. It doesn't really matter. It's just one of a number of glaring issues that won't be getting better as time rolls on, or be changed at all. FSG loves their wicked pissah Masshole bro. The team's old and feels like its built with the mindset that Sid, Geno, Letang (and Carter) are still 27. The goalie situation is a hot, coiled turd. My big problem is less that this team is circling the drain in predictable mediocrity, but that they suck ass to watch. I can barely get through two periods of this slogfest anymore on any given night. If you're gonna be some middle of the pack nobody, at least open up the gates and let the dudes run around doing fun, dumb shit. What's gonna happen, Sully? You're gonna get *fired*?! You're owed tens of millions of dollars through 2027. Shit, I'd be doing my best to get fired so I could just chill on a hammock getting stoned while collecting those checks and not having to worry about the grueling schedule of being an NHL head coach anymore. That's the f***ing dream.

 

[Andy99]

Remember when we wanted Fleury to just make the predictable saves, so our D knew how to play in front of him? Remember Matt Murray did that, and even with his weak glove hand, we were able to manage it.

So now Jarry needs to win games on his own for us to succeed?

Okay, I went over the highlights to refresh my memory...
G1 - Anderson rips it near the blue line. Jarry should have had that.
G2 - Caufield near the blue line, but Jarry was obstructed. Yeah, he could/woudl/should, I give this one to him.
G3 - Suzuki goal wasn't really his fault at all. Rust gave it right back to him.
G4 - Rebound control? Maybe.
G5 - OT goal. Lots of fail to go around there.

That 2nd period, we should have been down by a couple of goals, but Jarry kept them in it. Fine, he didn't win the game for us, but he didn't lose it either.

I guess I can see how we can look at this both ways. Giving up 5 isn't usually a path to success either.

Good assessment of the goals…I would say that as our team gets older, we will need to rely on better than average goaltending even more

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Remember when we wanted Fleury to just make the predictable saves, so our D knew how to play in front of him? Remember Matt Murray did that, and even with his weak glove hand, we were able to manage it.

So now Jarry needs to win games on his own for us to succeed?

Okay, I went over the highlights to refresh my memory...
G1 - Anderson rips it near the blue line. Jarry should have had that.
G2 - Caufield near the blue line, but Jarry was obstructed. Yeah, he could/woudl/should, I give this one to him.
G3 - Suzuki goal wasn't really his fault at all. Rust gave it right back to him.
G4 - Rebound control? Maybe.
G5 - OT goal. Lots of fail to go around there.

That 2nd period, we should have been down by a couple of goals, but Jarry kept them in it. Fine, he didn't win the game for us, but he didn't lose it either.

I guess I can see how we can look at this both ways. Giving up 5 isn't usually a path to success either.

This is spot on. G1 and G4 were the problems.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

The ideal situation is that this team finds somebody who hasn't been tempered in the forge of NHL coaching brainrot so they actually, y'know, work with guys and try to get the most out of their strengths. Somebody completely unknown or a first-time coach like Marty St. Louis, even if I think he's doomed to eventually be ground down to the "play 'em to a draw" paste that all NHL coaches are comprised of.

 

[Pancakes]

You don't say!!!

They also weren't 30 during the Therrien/Byslma eras nor any other age than they were during those respective timeframes

I guess they're all expired then, trade em all for picks because no coach can succeed with such an old group eh?

Nah. But a lot of people think changing the coach is some magic elixir for the Pens because it worked twice in the past. But those teams were much younger and better.

I've been on record saying that Sullivan should face some heat and if the Pens continue to struggle they should consider making a change.

I'm just not convinced making a change will actually do a whole lot. This isn't some young brilliant roster that's being misused. It's an old and busted roster that will have to scratch and claw for its wins regardless of who is at the helm.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

All in all, watching Penguins hockey anymore, knowing a lot is broken and absolutely none of it will be changed/fixed:

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I'm just not convinced making a change will actually do a whole lot. This isn't some young brilliant roster that's being misused. It's an old and busted roster that will have to scratch and claw for its wins regardless of who is at the helm.

While I agree that a coaching change isn't a guarantee of a turnaround, I disagree vehemently with the bolded. I think Sullivan's lineup decisions and his overall unwillingness to let players play to their strengths IS misusing the roster.

That doesn't mean they go from the worst team in the league to the best team just with a coaching change. But I think you'd see a lot of the issues that are currently plaguing them be rectified if the right coach is brought in (and no, Reirden taking over will just be the same, but with his own incompetence tossed in).

 

[pistolpete11]

Nah. But a lot of people think changing the coach is some magic elixir for the Pens because it worked twice in the past. But those teams were much younger and better.

I've been on record saying that Sullivan should face some heat and if the Pens continue to struggle they should consider making a change.

I'm just not convinced making a change will actually do a whole lot. This isn't some young brilliant roster that's being misused. It's an old and busted roster that will have to scratch and claw for its wins regardless of who is at the helm.

The point of bringing up the Therrien/Bylsma and Johnston/Sullivan transitions is to show how much of a difference a new coach can make. Not necessarily that they will have the same results.

 

[Sidgeni Malkby]

Good assessment of the goals…I would say that as our team gets older, we will need to rely on better than average goaltending even more

Thank you.

Jarry IS better than average, no?

He has great rebound control (for the most part). He is positionally sound and is reliable in odd man situations and breakaways. His puck handling is great, but that should help drive offense than defense. What would be easier is make Jarry look better with a rigorous defensive system. We did that in the 3rd against Toronto.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

The point of bringing up the Therrien/Bylsma and Johnston/Sullivan transitions is to show how much of a difference a new coach can make. Not necessarily that they will have the same results.

Yes, it can work and spark a team midseason. Or the team can still struggle until you change personnel. The Edzo/Therrien change didn't start to take hold until the next year. Edzo was fired in December and the Penguins went 2-11-2 in January and didn't have a winning record in any month the rest of the year.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yes, it can work and spark a team midseason. Or the team can still struggle until you change personnel. The Edzo/Therrien change didn't start to take hold until the next year. Edzo was fired in December and the Penguins went 2-11-2 in January and didn't have a winning record in any month the rest of the year.

That is because that team was awful.

Do your really think this team is as bad defensively as we’ve seen consistently this year?

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

While I agree that a coaching change isn't a guarantee of a turnaround, I disagree vehemently with the bolded. I think Sullivan's lineup decisions and his overall unwillingness to let players play to their strengths IS misusing the roster.

That doesn't mean they go from the worst team in the league to the best team just with a coaching change. But I think you'd see a lot of the issues that are currently plaguing them be rectified if the right coach is brought in (and no, Reirden taking over will just be the same, but with his own incompetence tossed in).

The fact the PP is STILL a mess lands in Sullys lap.
He needs to coach it himself, instruct his lapdogs to deploy it a certain way or reduce ice time

 

[DesertedPenguin]

That is because that team was awful.

Do your really think this team is as bad defensively as we’ve seen consistently this year?

Nope.

I think several players are slumping early and it is combining to have the team out of sync.

I think they miss Blueger. I kind of like Poehling, but Blueger is a little sharper defensively with his positioning and his decision-making. I'd like to see what Poehling does on Blueger's wing.

Crosby always runs hot/cold in October and November. I think he started strong because he had a full camp, but now he's in a customary cold spell.

Rust runs hot and cold, too. For the first time, it's impacting his decision-making. Maybe he feels an obligation to meet his contract. Maybe he's gotten lazy. Whatever it is, he's not playing at his level.

Dumoulin's struggles are well documented.

Letang has had moments his entire career where he's locked in and dominant, but also moments where he's a space cadet. He's dealing with the latter right now.

Jarry isn't right, either. He's not as crisp side to side, almost out of control. He's not tracking the puck. And he's giving up more rebounds, anecdotally anyway, than usual. He also says he's not healthy, so who knows.

I still don't like the mix in the bottom six, but it's been disjointed with Blueger and Carter missing time.

Finally, I don't like the PK. I think it's better than the first few games, but I hate the style. I don't like Vellucci. I was hoping someone would hire him away.

All that said, most of these guys are pretty proven. I have faith that Letang and Rust and Crosby will be better. So I am willing to be patient, and I do understand there is a valid school of thought that says you let some players work their way through their problems and other players you bench or give a kick in the ass.

However, I think Sullivan delegates too much. He lets Reirden and Vellucci do their thing and figure things out in their respective areas. I think this approach extends to the players, too. He lets guys who earn his trust work through things.

The one thing I agree with you on is I wish Sullivan would have a shorter leash. He doesn't have to scratch Rust, but maybe shake up his role a bit. I'd start by keeping L1 together but taking Rust off the power play and putting him on the PK. Get him back to his foundational skills that earned him a spot in the first place.

Ideally, here is what I'd run if everyone is healthy:
Guentzel-Crosby-Rust
Zucker-Malkin-Rakell
McGinn-Carter-Heinen
Hallander-Blueger-Poehling
Archibald

I'm still not wild about that third line.

POJ-Letang
Pettersson-Petry
Dumoulin-Rutta
Ruhwedel

I want POJ with Letang to be more of an offensive threat. And I'd use Pettersson and Petry in the situations that Dumoulin-Letang used to get.

Guentzel-Crosby-Rakell-Malkin-Petry on the power play, with Malkin and Rakell on the wings for one-timers and Guentzel and Crosby roaming down low and in front of the net.

Hallander-Rust and Blueger-McGinn on the PK, attacking the points and puck carriers more aggressively, boxing out stronger down below, and causing more havoc.

 

[Andy99]

Thank you.

Jarry IS better than average, no?

He has great rebound control (for the most part). He is positionally sound and is reliable in odd man situations and breakaways. His puck handling is great, but that should help drive offense than defense. What would be easier is make Jarry look better with a rigorous defensive system. We did that in the 3rd against Toronto.

Jarry has been inconsistent is how I’d describe him…games that really good and games that aren’t…this year so far the bad overshadow the good (not sure there have been any except first couple)…anyway the stats, WAR etc have all shown a below average goalie this season so far

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Guentzel-Crosby-Rakell-Malkin-Petry on the power play, with Malkin and Rakell on the wings for one-timers and Guentzel and Crosby roaming down low and in front of the net.

Crosby - Carter - Malkin
Rakell - Zucker

is an unconventional look that I'd like to try.

Malkin on RW for the reason you mentioned.

Putting Sid on the left wall has worked wonders historically. It brings balance. His passing percentage goes up and he just makes smarter decisions all over. He's dangerous and less predictable.

Carter there for obvious reasons. He's huge, hard to move and screens have gotten us a few PPG's already. There's an added benefit of him being able to take faceoffs. He's at 61%. If you lose the faceoff that's like 20+ seconds of lost time. I know he's failed on PP1 before, but that was on the wing. Malkin's down to 52% in the dot after starting hot there, and Sid's treading water at 50%. I think those rates are worse on the PP in particular too, and it's hurting us.

I'm on the fence about using Petry on the PP. He's been awful at it in his career. I know he has 2 PPG's, but those were mostly because of perfect screens.
I haven't liked his decision making outside of that, forcing shots for easy blocks when the PK'ers are totally set up. Not particularly happy with the distribution either.
I don't trust it to be a long term solution, but I wouldn't be mad if they explored it just to make sure.

Zucker has a cannon too and has been our #1 5v5 producer. He's highly motivated right now. His passing's improved. I think he's earned a promotion.

And Rakell would stabilize things nicely at the point as well. I trust his hands in tight spaces and under pressure. He knows how to create space and calm things down.

I don't see that we need D at all. We don't have D PP specialists, so why force it? There's a potential good one in Wilkes, but he's not available to us.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Crosby - Carter - Malkin
Rakell - Zucker

is an unconventional look that I'd like to try.

Malkin on RW for the reason you mentioned.

Putting Sid on the left wall has worked wonders historically. It brings balance. His passing percentage goes up and he just makes smarter decisions all over. He's dangerous and less predictable.

Carter there for obvious reasons. He's huge, hard to move and screens have gotten us a few PPG's already. There's an added benefit of him being able to take faceoffs. He's at 61%. If you lose the faceoff that's like 20+ seconds of lost time. I know he's failed on PP1 before, but that was on the wing. Malkin's down to 52% in the dot after starting hot there, and Sid's treading water at 50%. I think those rates are worse on the PP in particular too, and it's hurting us.

I'm on the fence about using Petry on the PP. He's been awful at it in his career. I know he has 2 PPG's, but those were mostly because of perfect screens.
I haven't liked his decision making outside of that, forcing shots for easy blocks when the PK'ers are totally set up. Not particularly happy with the distribution either.
I don't trust it to be a long term solution, but I wouldn't be mad if they explored it just to make sure.

Zucker has a cannon too and has been our #1 5v5 producer. He's highly motivated right now. His passing's improved. I think he's earned a promotion.

And Rakell would stabilize things nicely at the point as well. I trust his hands in tight spaces and under pressure. He knows how to create space and calm things down.

I don't see that we need D at all. We don't have D PP specialists, so why force it? There's a potential good one in Wilkes, but he's not available to us.

You need a defenseman as a security blanket given the tendency to create high risk plays. Frankly I'd prefer POJ or Smith over Petry, but I was trying to stay within the realm of reality rather than fantasy.

I don't want Carter anywhere near the first power play.

But using your concept, I'd go

Crosby-Zucker-Malkin
Rakell-Petry

With Zucker and Rakell alternating spots as the puck moves.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

You need a defenseman as a security blanket given the tendency to create high risk plays

5 Forwards is becoming more common. Montreal used it against us.
I trust Rakell more than any other Forward defensively, and Zucker backchecks hard too. I think they'd cope.
Besides, the mistakes I expect Petry would make and Letang is currently making would often lead to those counter-attacks in the first place.

I considered Zucker as net front strongly, but I don't like our point situation and I don't see who else can be RD if Malkin's on the wing. I mean sure, try POJ. My expectations would be limited with him though. Feel like he'd most likely be a jitterbug.

Carter's doing quite well on PP2 so far. I get where you're coming from, but there's a chance it'd work out.