JurassicTunga
it is what it is
- Mar 21, 2010
- 7,603
- 4,923
GDT: Pens vs Flames Dec 17 @ 7:00 pm
- Thread starter Rubi
- Start date
Anglesmith
Setting up the play?
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Flams
Kylington the next Karlsson. A few years from now when we are starting our rebuild.. we will look back to Stone and Hall.
I’ve heard this one a lot before.
After 2017-18, I learned that advanced stats could be broken to the extreme.
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Mazatt
Registered User
- Apr 30, 2019
- 2,819
- 2,085
Flames played a pretty good game. Bennett wasn't noticeable and Mangiapane and Tkachuk seem to be lacking recently. Lindholm was good, Monahan was really noticeable with speed and forecheck and Dube had a strong game.
In the second they had a ton of pressure and Tkachuk went to flip it out and gave this weak ass little flipper that wouldn't have cleared the blue line if he was at the top of the circle. I don't if he's injured but he has got to be harder on his stick there.
Andersson is making improvements and had another good game and Gaudreau seemed engaged. Giordano wasn't exactly noticeable which would be good for a bottom pair guy but for our #1 D-man it's a slight concern. Lucic wasn't all that great. I'd say he was average with the 2 on 0 dragging my opinion of his game down.
Hanifin, I though, played well. Brodie was spectacular, Hamonic was ok and Kylington was hard on his stick and barely fell over, if at all, tonight. Backlund also had some slick moves. I also liked Ryan's game.
Realistically this is a game we win with average goal tending on both ends. Jarry was out of his mind and needed a perfect play to beat him, while Talbot looked a bit out of place in net. I know he had some great saves at the end but the 2nd goal wasn't great (though it was off a defensive breakdown where I think Dube was tired and stayed in front of the net when his guy was in the corner with Hanifin and Hamonic taking players in front), and I feel that there were some saves that looked... off and he didn't seem comfortable in net.
One other thing I worry about is how we are pacing ourselves through games. We come on strong in the 1st, put up mad shots and get great chances but come out flat footed in the second and get taken advantage of before waking up too little too late in the third. While we have been running into hot goalies both times, using the second to allow the other team to fight back into the game is a recipe for disaster and we need a full game at the effort level we see in the 1st, or a more balanced approach. Out shooting opponents 20-5 is great until the shots are even by the end of the second. Need the foot on the throat mentality to stay in the hunt.
In the second they had a ton of pressure and Tkachuk went to flip it out and gave this weak ass little flipper that wouldn't have cleared the blue line if he was at the top of the circle. I don't if he's injured but he has got to be harder on his stick there.
Andersson is making improvements and had another good game and Gaudreau seemed engaged. Giordano wasn't exactly noticeable which would be good for a bottom pair guy but for our #1 D-man it's a slight concern. Lucic wasn't all that great. I'd say he was average with the 2 on 0 dragging my opinion of his game down.
Hanifin, I though, played well. Brodie was spectacular, Hamonic was ok and Kylington was hard on his stick and barely fell over, if at all, tonight. Backlund also had some slick moves. I also liked Ryan's game.
Realistically this is a game we win with average goal tending on both ends. Jarry was out of his mind and needed a perfect play to beat him, while Talbot looked a bit out of place in net. I know he had some great saves at the end but the 2nd goal wasn't great (though it was off a defensive breakdown where I think Dube was tired and stayed in front of the net when his guy was in the corner with Hanifin and Hamonic taking players in front), and I feel that there were some saves that looked... off and he didn't seem comfortable in net.
One other thing I worry about is how we are pacing ourselves through games. We come on strong in the 1st, put up mad shots and get great chances but come out flat footed in the second and get taken advantage of before waking up too little too late in the third. While we have been running into hot goalies both times, using the second to allow the other team to fight back into the game is a recipe for disaster and we need a full game at the effort level we see in the 1st, or a more balanced approach. Out shooting opponents 20-5 is great until the shots are even by the end of the second. Need the foot on the throat mentality to stay in the hunt.
Anglesmith
Setting up the play?
Wat. I'm talking about just watching the game. Wasted chance after wasted chance. Still better than not having any chances to waste.
Anglesmith
Setting up the play?
We beat up his pillows pretty well. It's one of those games where the reason it's impressive isn't the individual saves, it's just that that many dangerous pucks being fired from in close usually results in a few squeaking through. The Flames had themselves to blame on many of those chances, for sure.
Ace Rimmer
Stoke me a clipper.
At some point good teams start putting moral victories in the win column.
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Pittsburgh Penguins @ Calgary Flames, 2019-12-17
We really were the better team. The finish is a big problem cause we're generating tons of chances lately but can't burry them.
We really were the better team. The finish is a big problem cause we're generating tons of chances lately but can't burry them.
InfinityIggy
Zagidulin's Dad
Meh. One of those games we probably deserved to win IMO. Nothing too alarming about this one.
Anglesmith
Setting up the play?
Fig
Absolute Horse Shirt
- Dec 15, 2014
- 12,991
- 8,457
Silly question, but wasn't Carolina losing games in a similar fashion in RBA's first season as coach?
I also didn't get a chance to watch the whole game because I was at a company event and quite ill. I feel like what I'm seeing isn't the same as the mindless Gulutzan system, so it's not horribly concerning to me yet. Not to mention, what I saw of this game didn't feel representative of a 4-1 game since two goals were empty netters.
1-1 tying goal is even strength, but it was a PP prior to that and our guy didn't make it back in time to be part of the play after the PP expired. It essentially was a PP-esque goal for a few additional seconds after the PP expired for the Pens.
2-1 goal was a screened squeaker.
3-1 goal was ENG, but it doesn't even make any sense. It has to be some kind of misunderstanding of the play book, because Tkachuk flub aside, the forwards were too deep and the dmen were way too far back.
4-1 goal was ENG, the possession was a bit of a mess, and Letang being able to clear one in with low pressure from behind his own net is weird.
This next part might be weird. I don't know how to fully explain it, so please forgive me if it rambles more than normal.
Overall based on the above, this leads me to think our group doesn't completely understand how to play with the goalie pulled under Ward's system. Ward mentioned he did not mess with the system after he took over and we barely squeaked out wins. I am assuming Ward is now trying to introduce small things into the system to move it towards his system (vs Peter's system) and the players are hesitating just enough to give other teams that small window to do some damage.
But something else doesn't make sense to me. If I had to point at someone specific, the dmen are the ones confusing the hell out of me. I wonder if Ward introduced something there first and the dmen are making major mistakes as they try to figure it out. On our goal, Hanifin rovers to the net at full speed, then full stops in the slot for like 2-3 seconds? But something bothered, me. Watching the alternate angle, the 5th man (Hamonic?) literally is controller disconnected towards the blue line. WTF is up with that? I do not think I've seen that before. Is that a tweak? Or has this been normal since Peters and I've only noticed it just now?
So I went back. The 2nd goal was weird too. Kylington is standing on the side with no one around, and Rust has both Hamonic and Tkachuk sorta poking at him with Dube the closest Flames player to our net/goalie. Sure, we see Hamonic wincing, but the moment the puck goes in, I'm kinda confused why everyone is where they are in that play. I think most people will crap on Hamonic on that play, but I'm seriously confused why Dube goes from the left side to the right side behind the dman and doesn't really focus on the play and then Kylington goes from the right side to the left side and kinda just watches the play.
I remember in Gully's system, the dmen would full speed retreat, but I don't think I ever saw in Gully nor Peters systems dmen coasting or being super out of position as I suddenly have noticed in this Pens game.
I feel like typically under Peters, we enter the zone via a 3 man line with 2 men immediately attacking the o-zone to hold the line (to close the lid on the jar so to speak). Part of this was also to force the other team to panic and try to ice, which gives Peters an opportunity to do his face off based attacks. Gully's was an idiotic 3-1-1 where one of the guys in the back (usually like a Gaudreau) would have to figure out how to weave around his own statue teammates and opposition waiting at the blue line, and the moment that carrier breaks through, then 2 guys then attempt to 100 yard dash to some statistical position. If the other team seemed to even look like they might get some momentum the other way, it's a sprint back towards our blue line even if our guys recover it.
But some of what I saw tonight looked like a 1-3 or 2-2 attack with the last man back... conserving energy?
If in the O-zone:
Gully: It often felt like we would attack in a 3 v 5 or a 3 v 4. If our cycle looks good, our dmen move in to make it 5v5.
Peters: It often felt like we would attack in a 5 v 5 every time we entered the zone and we'd try to position into a more aggressive 4 man down low. The down side to this is that if the momentum swings in the opposite direction, an average dman is going to be 1-2 steps behind. Only amazing skaters like Hanifin, Brodie or Kylington could catch someone with that disadvantage.
Ward (I don't know if he's implemented anything yet... but tonight's game): It seems like there's times where we do a 4 man attack hoping for either a 4v4 or a 4v3 initial chance if the other team gets slightly lazy. The last man back coasts up and takes a position near the blue line deciding where to be to keep the puck in play and/or to take first steps to cut off or slow down a break out?
If this is indeed what Ward is planning, I think it kinda makes sense. But I can also see why it looks weird and makes the player look bad/disengaged. If Gio/Hamonic is running the back end with Brodie/Hanifin going rover, then Brodie/Hanifin will look good as part of that initial high pressure attack and their skating makes them look great at they attempt to rush back. Gio/Hamonic on the other hand would look like a lazy bum coasting around the blue line and not contributing to the attack... but that's because they're trying to be two steps ahead of a possible momentum swing. Further adding to the weird perception is that it seems like the last man back's job is more to slow down the play so that the other players can get back an the last man is in the middle? That seems weird as hell as well. But I do not know if my observations make sense and if this is a systems thing, or just weird plays with weird coincidentally similar dman break downs.
I can't tell if I'm over analyzing or if there's something oddly bizarre going on which means Ward is starting to implement things that will have growing pains while our guys figure it out.
I also didn't get a chance to watch the whole game because I was at a company event and quite ill. I feel like what I'm seeing isn't the same as the mindless Gulutzan system, so it's not horribly concerning to me yet. Not to mention, what I saw of this game didn't feel representative of a 4-1 game since two goals were empty netters.
1-1 tying goal is even strength, but it was a PP prior to that and our guy didn't make it back in time to be part of the play after the PP expired. It essentially was a PP-esque goal for a few additional seconds after the PP expired for the Pens.
2-1 goal was a screened squeaker.
3-1 goal was ENG, but it doesn't even make any sense. It has to be some kind of misunderstanding of the play book, because Tkachuk flub aside, the forwards were too deep and the dmen were way too far back.
4-1 goal was ENG, the possession was a bit of a mess, and Letang being able to clear one in with low pressure from behind his own net is weird.
This next part might be weird. I don't know how to fully explain it, so please forgive me if it rambles more than normal.
Overall based on the above, this leads me to think our group doesn't completely understand how to play with the goalie pulled under Ward's system. Ward mentioned he did not mess with the system after he took over and we barely squeaked out wins. I am assuming Ward is now trying to introduce small things into the system to move it towards his system (vs Peter's system) and the players are hesitating just enough to give other teams that small window to do some damage.
But something else doesn't make sense to me. If I had to point at someone specific, the dmen are the ones confusing the hell out of me. I wonder if Ward introduced something there first and the dmen are making major mistakes as they try to figure it out. On our goal, Hanifin rovers to the net at full speed, then full stops in the slot for like 2-3 seconds? But something bothered, me. Watching the alternate angle, the 5th man (Hamonic?) literally is controller disconnected towards the blue line. WTF is up with that? I do not think I've seen that before. Is that a tweak? Or has this been normal since Peters and I've only noticed it just now?
So I went back. The 2nd goal was weird too. Kylington is standing on the side with no one around, and Rust has both Hamonic and Tkachuk sorta poking at him with Dube the closest Flames player to our net/goalie. Sure, we see Hamonic wincing, but the moment the puck goes in, I'm kinda confused why everyone is where they are in that play. I think most people will crap on Hamonic on that play, but I'm seriously confused why Dube goes from the left side to the right side behind the dman and doesn't really focus on the play and then Kylington goes from the right side to the left side and kinda just watches the play.
I remember in Gully's system, the dmen would full speed retreat, but I don't think I ever saw in Gully nor Peters systems dmen coasting or being super out of position as I suddenly have noticed in this Pens game.
I feel like typically under Peters, we enter the zone via a 3 man line with 2 men immediately attacking the o-zone to hold the line (to close the lid on the jar so to speak). Part of this was also to force the other team to panic and try to ice, which gives Peters an opportunity to do his face off based attacks. Gully's was an idiotic 3-1-1 where one of the guys in the back (usually like a Gaudreau) would have to figure out how to weave around his own statue teammates and opposition waiting at the blue line, and the moment that carrier breaks through, then 2 guys then attempt to 100 yard dash to some statistical position. If the other team seemed to even look like they might get some momentum the other way, it's a sprint back towards our blue line even if our guys recover it.
But some of what I saw tonight looked like a 1-3 or 2-2 attack with the last man back... conserving energy?
If in the O-zone:
Gully: It often felt like we would attack in a 3 v 5 or a 3 v 4. If our cycle looks good, our dmen move in to make it 5v5.
Peters: It often felt like we would attack in a 5 v 5 every time we entered the zone and we'd try to position into a more aggressive 4 man down low. The down side to this is that if the momentum swings in the opposite direction, an average dman is going to be 1-2 steps behind. Only amazing skaters like Hanifin, Brodie or Kylington could catch someone with that disadvantage.
Ward (I don't know if he's implemented anything yet... but tonight's game): It seems like there's times where we do a 4 man attack hoping for either a 4v4 or a 4v3 initial chance if the other team gets slightly lazy. The last man back coasts up and takes a position near the blue line deciding where to be to keep the puck in play and/or to take first steps to cut off or slow down a break out?
If this is indeed what Ward is planning, I think it kinda makes sense. But I can also see why it looks weird and makes the player look bad/disengaged. If Gio/Hamonic is running the back end with Brodie/Hanifin going rover, then Brodie/Hanifin will look good as part of that initial high pressure attack and their skating makes them look great at they attempt to rush back. Gio/Hamonic on the other hand would look like a lazy bum coasting around the blue line and not contributing to the attack... but that's because they're trying to be two steps ahead of a possible momentum swing. Further adding to the weird perception is that it seems like the last man back's job is more to slow down the play so that the other players can get back an the last man is in the middle? That seems weird as hell as well. But I do not know if my observations make sense and if this is a systems thing, or just weird plays with weird coincidentally similar dman break downs.
I can't tell if I'm over analyzing or if there's something oddly bizarre going on which means Ward is starting to implement things that will have growing pains while our guys figure it out.
Last edited:
Tkachuky
Registered User
Dube should have taken that shot. Lucic is not very good at releasing the puck fast. He just isn’t.
Mobiandi
Registered User
- Jan 17, 2015
- 21,084
- 17,553
Maybe someone with a more watchful eye or who knows how to access these kinds of stats can chime in, but if the Lindholm line is truly playing against the toughest opposition so far then I don't think Mangiapane has been up to the task yet. I think Ward should try sheltering him more to not hurt his confidence and try someone else there for the time being
- Jan 9, 2009
- 15,675
- 10,233
I think Mangiapane and Dube should swap spots.
ie. Tkachuk-Lindholm-Dube
Gaudreau-Monahan-Backlund
Lucic-Ryan-Mangiapane
Mangiapane has played well with Ryan as his center.
ie. Tkachuk-Lindholm-Dube
Gaudreau-Monahan-Backlund
Lucic-Ryan-Mangiapane
Mangiapane has played well with Ryan as his center.
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