Post-Game Talk: Pens - 33, Blues - 27

[Your Boy Troy]

I somewhat agree with you, my theory on hockey is as a player you should always have at least one of the following traits; speed, skill or grit.

I thought that one of the best Pens teams that I ever saw that had the right mix of talent was the 95/96 team. Take a look at the grit on this team:
Chris Tamer
Dave Roche
Neil Wilkerson
Francois Leroux
Joe Dziedzic

None of those players were great but they were the perfect compliment to the players with skill and or speed. The only reason that team didn't win a cup was that Francis got injured in the playoffs. Also, substitute Rick Tocchet for Tomas Sandstrom and I think this team wins a cup even without Francis. For some unknown reason, Patrick dismantled this team the following season and the Pens lost their snarl.



Edmonton had the greatest skilled team ever and yet they had a nasty edge to them as well. Players like Smith, Mcclelland, McSorely, Semenko, Anderson and Messier.

And what makes me angriest about Shero and the Pens, guys like Dave Roche or McSorely are easy to find. It's hard to get a Crosby, Malkin or Letang, he was gifted with those guys on the roster. But get those guys some help, guys who will do their dirty work. Sid is our best forward at going hard to the net, I find that pretty sad.

Very well written response. You are 100% correct. A recipe for success is a team that has skill, speed, grit, and size. I think that Ray Shero understands this, but he doesn't have the right players in place. Players like Craig Adams, Taylor Pyatt, Tanner Glass, and Brian Gibbons aren't fit for this organization. They are either too soft, undersized, too slow, or don't provide anything in both ends of the ice. Pittsburgh needs to get some big bodies on the fourth-line that can create a heavy forecheck, and make punishing hits. It wouldn't hurt the organization to get a legitimate enforcer to protect the players.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Very well written response. You are 100% correct. A recipe for success is a team that has skill, speed, grit, and size. I think that Ray Shero understands this, but he doesn't have the right players in place. Players like Craig Adams, Taylor Pyatt, Tanner Glass, and Brian Gibbons aren't fit for this organization. They are either too soft, undersized, too slow, or don't provide anything in both ends of the ice. Pittsburgh needs to get some big bodies on the fourth-line that can create a heavy forecheck, and make punishing hits. It wouldn't hurt the organization to get a legitimate enforcer to protect the players.

I agree. I get tired of hearing people say enforcers have no place on a team like the Pens when that is exactly what they need. Last year, Ottawa was super angry at the Cooke incident. Late in the season the Pens brought up Big Mac for the Ottawa game. And for once, I didn't see Chris Neal running around like a madman. After every whistle, Bic Mac skated up to Neal and he always skated away with his tail between his legs. Deterrent! It works. Why does the US have nuclear weapons?? Deterrent! FYI, John Scott would be 100 times more valuable to this team than Craig Adams. At least John Scott does one thing well, what does Adams bring to the table???

 

[Shady Machine]

Lets also remember you have to have luck and some pretty big breaks to win the Cup.

Jiggy brings up some great points, but also remember the Bruins were very beat up also.

You have to let your stars be who they are, and the top two lines are far from not being gritty. The problem is we don't have the detractors who can actually divert the attention from them onto themselves. We don't have the antagonizer. They would if they would bring him up, Zolnierczyk. When Sill is able to play he can also get under guys skin.

Diversion, smoke and mirrors, or plain and simply mask you deficiantcies by making them look elsewhere.

Our top 6 is not gritty. Kunitz doesn't play that way anymore. So Crosby is the "grittiest" guy. You don't tell them to play any differently, you just make the best lineup decisions to focus on your strengths which is speed, speed, speed.

 

[IcedCapp]

Umm, didn't FOUR lefties end the game against Tampa on the power play just yesterday?

Some of y'all will try to find anything to suit your agenda. Damn, the Blues are a good team, a step above us, and we hung with them in each game this year.

No one is saying DB is perfect, but damn, he is not the reason why the team lost this game. Elliott and the Blues happened to contribute to that.

This is the worst kind of thinking. I implore you: please do not go through life with this mindset, it will only set you up for the worst, most embarrassing kind of failure.

Just because something worked does not mean it was the right choice.

Countless people drink and drive without causing an accident. It doesn't mean it's safe.

We've been noting the LHS issue in the pp through failure AND success.

That - a consistent belief based in facts, reasoning, and logic - and not random result, is how you should approach all critical thinking subjects.

Note: you didn't say, "5 LHS is okay because..."

You said, "it worked two days okay. Therefore it works. QED. "

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

also remember the Bruins were very beat up also.

Most teams are beat to hell by the cup, so that isn't an unusual circumstance. The Bruins played the Leafs in the first round though, and were quite healthy. Leafs put up 18 goals in that series and were dominating in large stretches because of their speed. Games 5, 6 and 7 (save a ten minutes collapse), they were owning Boston. By the end of game 6, the Leafs looked so much faster than the Bruins I was 100% sure they were winning the series.

The Leafs were all over Boston in game 7 again. It was a dominant performance with their speed and forecheck just killing the Bruins layers and breaking down their structure. I was actually laughing at how easy the Leafs were making it look.

When Kadri scored, I knew it was all over. But.. BUT... RC ****ed up and pulled his dogs back and dropped into a passive 1-2. Then Horton got that huge goal and the momentum swung. The Leafs stayed back on their heels and gave up the two late goals and blew it.

 

[Your Boy Troy]

I agree. I get tired of hearing people say enforcers have no place on a team like the Pens when that is exactly what they need. Last year, Ottawa was super angry at the Cooke incident. Late in the season the Pens brought up Big Mac for the Ottawa game. And for once, I didn't see Chris Neal running around like a madman. After every whistle, Bic Mac skated up to Neal and he always skated away with his tail between his legs. Deterrent! It works. Why does the US have nuclear weapons?? Deterrent! FYI, John Scott would be 100 times more valuable to this team than Craig Adams. At least John Scott does one thing well, what does Adams bring to the table???

Exactly. Call players like John Scott and Steve MacIntyre goons all you want, but players like Craig Adams and Chuck Kobasew provide nothing. Ever since John Scott gave Shawn Thornton a concussion, Boston has been afraid to play physical when John Scott is on the bench.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Very well written response. You are 100% correct. A recipe for success is a team that has skill, speed, grit, and size. I think that Ray Shero understands this, but he doesn't have the right players in place. Players like Craig Adams, Taylor Pyatt, Tanner Glass, and Brian Gibbons aren't fit for this organization. They are either too soft, undersized, too slow, or don't provide anything in both ends of the ice. Pittsburgh needs to get some big bodies on the fourth-line that can create a heavy forecheck, and make punishing hits. It wouldn't hurt the organization to get a legitimate enforcer to protect the players.

That's great and all, but this is reality we are talking about.

Right now, the Pens aren't big or gritty. They are in the bottom half of the league in size as well. The personnel they have isn't changing. DB can't sacrifice Despres for the hockey gods and Rick Tocchet in his prime will ascend down from the heavens.

This roster as currently constructed is built for speed and skill. Everyone sees that but their coach, who wants them to magically turn into a grinding team.

That's not going to happen, but DB doesn't let common sense ever stop him from stubbornly seeing his plans through.

 

[Your Boy Troy]

That's great and all, but this is reality we are talking about.

Right now, the Pens aren't big or gritty. They are in the bottom half of the league in size as well. The personnel they have isn't changing. DB can't sacrifice Despres for the hockey gods and Rick Tocchet in his prime will ascend down from the heavens.

This roster as currently constructed is built for speed and skill. Everyone sees that but their coach, who wants them to magically turn into a grinding team.

That's not going to happen, but DB doesn't let common sense ever stop him from stubbornly seeing his plans through.

If we are talking about reality, then there is no chance that Craig Adams and Tanner Glass are going to be scratched for players that provide more speed.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

If we are talking about reality, then there is no chance that Craig Adams and Tanner Glass are going to be scratched for players that provide more speed.

Glass was benched last playoffs, so when DB gets desperate again, there is some slim hope.

There's also injuries as well (but I'm not one who wishes them on guys).

All of those scenarios are at least plausible, as opposed to thinking this team will suddenly acquire all of this grit before the playoffs when uh, the deadline has passed.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

If you can find a currently eligible playoff team that has faster fwds than this, throw it out there:

Crosby
Kunitz
Stemps
Malkin
Sutter
Goc
Megna
Z
Vitale
Gibbons

That's ten fwds that can haul ass, win foot races and get to loose pucks. BB isn't a sloth either, but I don't consider him a fast skater like the guys above. Only Neal and JJ skate like ass in that fwd group. Seven of those guys have elite speed: Crosby, Malkin, Sutter, Megna, Z, Vitale, Gibbons.

Not many blueliners are catching those 7 from behind or winning foot races with them.

The Hawks and Blues can skate just fine. The Flyers, Habs, and Lightning skate with us just fine as well. We both know it's not all about pure speed anyways. A guy like Gibbons doesn't thrill me in the playoffs, almost as much as Megna doesn't. You can have guys like that in the lineup to prove your point and it certainly is a fast team but it's not optimal in real life. Splitting hairs regardless. It's a very fast team.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

If we are talking about reality, then there is no chance that Craig Adams and Tanner Glass are going to be scratched for players that provide more speed.

Honestly I don't have much of a problem with Glass this year. Don't get me wrong I'm not in love with the guy but he hasn't offended me really. Plus you need PKers. Now why we can't seamlessly migrate from Adams to Vitale I'll never understand.

 

[Shady Machine]

Honestly I don't have much of a problem with Glass this year. Don't get me wrong I'm not in love with the guy but he hasn't offended me really. Plus you need PKers. Now why we can't seamlessly migrate from Adams to Vitale I'll never understand.

The following players can PK successfully:

Stempniak
Crosby
Kunitz
Malkin
Jokinen
Gibbons
Goc
Sutter
Vitale

That's 9 forwards without even mentioning Gladams. You don't NEED a player specifically in the lineup to PK.

 

[IcedCapp]

The following players can PK successfully:

Stempniak
Crosby
Kunitz
Malkin
Jokinen
Gibbons
Goc
Sutter
Vitale

That's 9 forwards without even mentioning Gladams. You don't NEED a player specifically in the lineup to PK.

Glass missed many games with a broken hand. The PK was, statistically, better than it was when he was healthy.

I would also like to point out that the Pens are in a harder period of their schedule. Many people have been screaming about the passivity of their PK. It's starting to bite them in the ass.

The "WELL THEY ARE #1 IN PK" "argument" is either no longer valid or won't be soon enough.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

The following players can PK successfully:

Stempniak
Crosby
Kunitz
Malkin
Jokinen
Gibbons
Goc
Sutter
Vitale

That's 9 forwards without even mentioning Gladams. You don't NEED a player specifically in the lineup to PK.

Personally I eliminate Crosby/Malkin/Kunitz because I don't think they need to PK on top of 1:30 of ice for each PP and the random times Bylsma gets desperate every game and double shifts one or two of them.

And yes those guys can PK, but can they PK as well as Glass/Adams? I'm just asking the question. Our PK is rated very highly (in the regular season fwiw). I think forwards on the PK are one of those things people tend to think anyone can go out there and do, which I don't think is the case.

 

[Shady Machine]

Personally I eliminate Crosby/Malkin/Kunitz because I don't think they need to PK on top of 1:30 of ice for each PP and the random times Bylsma gets desperate every game and double shifts one or two of them.

And yes those guys can PK, but can they PK as well as Glass/Adams? I'm just asking the question. Our PK is rated very highly (in the regular season fwiw). I think forwards on the PK are one of those things people tend to think anyone can go out there and do, which I don't think is the case.

I just put Crosby, Malkin, Kunitz on there to show you who can PK. Should they play top PK minutes? I don't know, should Toews, Hossa, Giroux, Carter, Kopitar play regular PK minutes (just picked a few examples)?

As to the amazing PK abilities of Glass/Adams, our PK has statistically been very good the past few seasons and the following players were key cogs to it: Staal, Dupuis, Cooke. Two of these players left and the other is out for the season and our PK hasn't missed a beat. Glass was injured for a month+ and our PK didn't miss a beat.

That means one of 2 things: !.) Adams is literally the best PK'er in the NHL and is the major reason why our PK is so good or 2.) PK'ing is more about scheme and any 1 player doesn't make much of a difference.

I think I'll go with number 2.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

I just put Crosby, Malkin, Kunitz on there to show you who can PK. Should they play top PK minutes? I don't know, should Toews, Hossa, Giroux, Carter, Kopitar play regular PK minutes (just picked a few examples)?

As to the amazing PK abilities of Glass/Adams, our PK has statistically been very good the past few seasons and the following players were key cogs to it: Staal, Dupuis, Cooke. Two of these players left and the other is out for the season and our PK hasn't missed a beat. Glass was injured for a month+ and our PK didn't miss a beat.

That means one of 2 things: !.) Adams is literally the best PK'er in the NHL and is the major reason why our PK is so good or 2.) PK'ing is more about scheme and any 1 player doesn't make much of a difference.

I think I'll go with number 2.

That's all fair and please believe me when I tell you I'm an easy sell here. I'd love to send at least Adams to the waiver wire. His supposed leadership obviously doesn't mean dick and he can't skate anymore and could never produce, I'm just making sure there's nothing I'm forgetting

It's also not lost on me that for whatever reason our PK tends to take a nose dive at the absolute worst times.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

The Hawks and Blues can skate just fine. The Flyers, Habs, and Lightning skate with us just fine as well. We both know it's not all about pure speed anyways. A guy like Gibbons doesn't thrill me in the playoffs, almost as much as Megna doesn't. You can have guys like that in the lineup to prove your point and it certainly is a fast team but it's not optimal in real life. Splitting hairs regardless. It's a very fast team.

I'm not sure why certain posters keep missing the point here: the Pens have the personnel they have for the playoffs. There is no trade deadline. It's over. Their roster is their roster now.

Maxing out the talent of the available players is DB job. To put the best players out there and play to this teams strength. Their roster can be predicated on speed and skill or this illusion DB has that they can "grind ****ers down". They can't. They aren't built that way.

So despite your opinions on Megna, Gibbons, Zolnierczyk, etc, those guys make things happen with their speed. They get to loose pucks, draw penalties, create havoc, back teams off, etc. Wheras Pyatt, Glass, and Adams are sloths that do none of the above. They hold this team back from having an optimal roster, based on the personnel available.

With talented PK guys like Goc and Stemps on board now, there is zero excuse for Glass and Adams to be in the lineup. Those two are flat out better PK guys that can pressure the point, have P2P range and can be a threat shorthanded.

 

[SaintLouHaintBlue]

Exactly. Call players like John Scott and Steve MacIntyre goons all you want, but players like Craig Adams and Chuck Kobasew provide nothing. Ever since John Scott gave Shawn Thornton a concussion, Boston has been afraid to play physical when John Scott is on the bench.

I realize this doesn't really contribute to any discussion, but Steve Macintyre has one of my favorite hockey quotes of all time, when he was brought on, when Crosby was coming back from the concussion.

"My job," MacIntyre said, "is to make sure his transition back to hockey goes smoothly."

 

[zero8771]

Went to both games this weekend.

Was far too drunk to actually comment on anything from Saturdays game, but as far as Sunday:

They played them tight but honestly didnt look completely engaged at times. Kunitz had one to forget and Stemp played very well. They had trouble moving the puck up ice very well and were extremely sloppy in the neutral zone at times. Depres was able to get the puck up ice but was also guilty of some pretty big mistakes.

Overall they played them tight but I've seen this script before... not confident going into the playoffs

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

I'm not sure why certain posters keep missing the point here: the Pens have the personnel they have for the playoffs. There is no trade deadline. It's over. Their roster is their roster now.

Maxing out the talent of the available players is DB job. To put the best players out there and play to this teams strength. Their roster can be predicated on speed and skill or this illusion DB has that they can "grind ****ers down". They can't. They aren't built that way.

So despite your opinions on Megna, Gibbons, Zolnierczyk, etc, those guys make things happen with their speed. They get to loose pucks, draw penalties, create havoc, back teams off, etc. Wheras Pyatt, Glass, and Adams are sloths that do none of the above. They hold this team back from having an optimal roster, based on the personnel available.

With talented PK guys like Goc and Stemps on board now, there is zero excuse for Glass and Adams to be in the lineup. Those two are flat out better PK guys that can pressure the point, have P2P range and can be a threat shorthanded.

Sorry, I thought the deadline was next week. Calm down I thought we were speaking in general terms.

 

[td_ice]

I know people don't want to hear it, because we have heard it before, but their goalie played VERY WELL. And no that doesn't mask any mistakes on our part.


But I think their goal did show a weakness of ours, in how they scored, and we didn't,. And this is nothing revelatory, it has been mentioned many time before. And that is failure to have an authentic net front presence. That is definitely a need in playoff games. You gotta score dirty. And I don't have much confidence we can do that. The chances of scoring pretty goals in the playoffs go way down, due to heightened defensive presence, lax reefing, etc.

But having said that, seeing Stemp with Sid gives me a little more hope in that regard. As he can play in the dirty areas and win board/one on one battles. I think that will help, as in say Dupers on the line.

 

[Corvidae]

Error

 

[td_ice]

I'm not sure why certain posters keep missing the point here: the Pens have the personnel they have for the playoffs. There is no trade deadline. It's over. Their roster is their roster now.

Maxing out the talent of the available players is DB job. To put the best players out there and play to this teams strength. Their roster can be predicated on speed and skill or this illusion DB has that they can "grind ****ers down". They can't. They aren't built that way.

So despite your opinions on Megna, Gibbons, Zolnierczyk, etc, those guys make things happen with their speed. They get to loose pucks, draw penalties, create havoc, back teams off, etc. Wheras Pyatt, Glass, and Adams are sloths that do none of the above. They hold this team back from having an optimal roster, based on the personnel available.

With talented PK guys like Goc and Stemps on board now, there is zero excuse for Glass and Adams to be in the lineup. Those two are flat out better PK guys that can pressure the point, have P2P range and can be a threat shorthanded.

If the Pens go in that direction, you definitely want HarryZ up here. Guy is a relentless puck hound/forechecker for WBS And he definitely has the sandpaper in addition to the speed.

 

[mpp9]

I know people don't want to hear it, because we have heard it before, but their goalie played VERY WELL. And no that doesn't mask any mistakes on our part.


But I think their goal did show a weakness of ours, in how they scored, and we didn't,. And this is nothing revelatory, it has been mentioned many time before. And that is failure to have an authentic net front presence. That is definitely a need in playoff games. You gotta score dirty. And I don't have much confidence we can do that. The chances of scoring pretty goals in the playoffs go way down, due to heightened defensive presence, lax reefing, etc.

But having said that, seeing Stemp with Sid gives me a little more hope in that regard. As he can play in the dirty areas and win board/one on one battles. I think that will help, as in say Dupers on the line.

We don't spend enough time in their end to set up in front of the net. I'm not worried about Kunitz-Sid-Stempniak. But I am worried about Jokinen being a perimeter guy with Malkin and Neal. That line needs to be our most productive when we face teams like the Blues who will be focusing on shutting Sid down. I think Beau is more willing to stand around the net and consistently win one on one battles than Juice. Just have to hope he can stay healthy and isn't Bylsmaed.

And like Jiggy said. The team is what it is. Make the bottom six fast and tough to play against. If they can't score, at least they can draw penalties and put the game in our best players' hands.

 

[StaalForOne]

I know people don't want to hear it, because we have heard it before, but their goalie played VERY WELL. And no that doesn't mask any mistakes on our part.


But I think their goal did show a weakness of ours, in how they scored, and we didn't,. And this is nothing revelatory, it has been mentioned many time before. And that is failure to have an authentic net front presence. That is definitely a need in playoff games. You gotta score dirty. And I don't have much confidence we can do that. The chances of scoring pretty goals in the playoffs go way down, due to heightened defensive presence, lax reefing, etc.

But having said that, seeing Stemp with Sid gives me a little more hope in that regard. As he can play in the dirty areas and win board/one on one battles. I think that will help, as in say Dupers on the line.

It is encouraging that they did crash the net, especially towards the end of the game. The special teams, an essential difference maker of the game, were a big part of what you're saying also. The Pens rarely have traffic in front during the PP, whereas the Blues had 2 guys between the point shot an Fleury. I believe it was Oshie high slot, and Backes posted in front. The Pens almost always have 5 guys to the perimeter with minimal net front presence. I would rather see 2 strong PPs since there are 4 strong left handed shots to put out there. This would also distribute ice time better and prevent the cluster f that happened last game where Sid and malkin got tired and beat to a puck that got cleared into their D zone.

Another issue is the PK, whether it's best in the league or not. You can argue the passive vs aggressive approach, but for the love of god how many times do the likes of Backes and especially Simmonds have to torch them down low before before they learn to clear the damn crease?